Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey Guys,

Who do you purchase feeder lizards from? Just curious...got some babies that need to eat! And my Hueco...thanks for any help, G. Merker
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G. Merker

i get them off the side of my house!!

Sounds like your about to make some big money on feeder lizards Jon! LOL. Your email is going to be inundated with requests for alterna food!! BA

Gerald,

Not to give you a jab but reality check time. Most feeder lizards are sold wild caught lizards. So by purchasing feeder lizards you would be supporting the sale of wild caught herps. I know you don't sell wild caught and never have - as per your website. But this just goes to show us that the sale of wild caught is necessary in this industry.

BTW: Most herp species used as feeders are not bred in captivity and probably never will be because they are so common in the wild thus any laws preventing the sale of these species is ridiculous.

Further, many feeder lizards, salamanders and frogs are now on the "Black List" in Texas. Many of these species are very common and have no business on a "Black List". The "Black List" has a direct negative impact (both financial and practical) on this industry.

Welkerii

>>Gerald,
>>
>>Not to give you a jab but reality check time. Most feeder lizards are sold wild caught lizards. So by purchasing feeder lizards you would be supporting the sale of wild caught herps. I know you don't sell wild caught and never have - as per your website. But this just goes to show us that the sale of wild caught is necessary in this industry.
>>
>>BTW: Most herp species used as feeders are not bred in captivity and probably never will be because they are so common in the wild thus any laws preventing the sale of these species is ridiculous.
>>
>>Further, many feeder lizards, salamanders and frogs are now on the "Black List" in Texas. Many of these species are very common and have no business on a "Black List". The "Black List" has a direct negative impact (both financial and practical) on this industry.
>>
>>Welkerii

Sorry try again. It's not the same.
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Steve W.

Steve,

What's not the same? You need to be more specific. You need to explain your post. You have offered nothing to the discussion.

Welkerii

>>Steve,
>>
>>What's not the same? You need to be more specific. You need to explain your post. You have offered nothing to the discussion.
>>
>>Welkerii

Not the same as in asking for a few lizards to keep snakes alive is different than collecting a bullsnake. That is unless you need one for an indigo. As far as me not offering anything to the discussion? Well I'd say that it's better I don't get to specific when it comes to you and your preferered means of income.
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Steve W.

Collecting wilds as a living is wrong. Collecting a few wilds and staying within your limits should not be looked down on? Selling any wild animal is not right but getting wild feeders is about maintaining a professionally kept collection. Some snakes cannot be bred and raised without wild lizards, they are necessary to the success of raising hatchling kings. I agree buy a captive bred over wild caught as they are almost always available and just more humane and less of a stress on the environment.

Wild caught snakes being legally sold destroys the fecundity rate of any reptile species, except those that are prolific in the wild.

if legal, why is collecting wilds wrong....don't misunderstand me...i agree, but if legal its not wrong...just doesn't agree with some of our beliefs

What it all boils down to is what we as naturalist believe to be morally correct.If something is legal it doesn't make all situation morally acceptable by all that are affected by it.This is were we tend to separate ourselves from others into many different groups.

I know Gerald and I know he had no idea he was opening this can of worms and I don't think he would ever promote the commercial collecting of reptiles.
That said, collecting lizards to feed a collection of alterna is 40 times worse than collecting the alterna. If you feed an alterna 1 lizard a week for the or - 40 weeks a year that they are not being brumated, times, say 10 alterna, that is 400 lizards a year, then multiply that by a few hundred alterna keepers. Don't ask me, don't ask TP&W, don't ask Gerald or Mike. ASK the lizards, that $uks.
Later
Rick

Med geckos, med geckos, med geckos, med geckos, med geckos

Those little pest are everywhere. One crawled across my wife while she was sleeping last night. It scared the crap out of her. She would be glad to offer it to a hungry snake.

I remember a post awhile back by someone who was placing hollow gourds w/ damp sphagnum moss around homes and buildings infested with this little invaders. The geckos laid eggs there and he easily got all the baby geckos he could handle.

I agree, use an introduced species to exploit. Funny though, I don't think they are listed on either the black or white list in Texas. I think they missed that species, last time I checked anyway.

Brown anoles may be another possibility.

Also, you don't need to exploit a whole bunch of lizards to feed a whole bunch of snakes. One Lizard made into a soup can scent / feed 50 hatchlings all year easily, I know.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

James,

"Collecting wilds as a living is wrong."

Earning an income from collecting wild herps is NOT wrong. It is quite necessary and an economic reality. I can't afford to spend my money collecting specimens for researchers for free. Hobbyists who wish to acquire new blood or localities should certainly pay me for my time and expense. We live in a world that requires money. Hence people selling captive born offspring. I think you need to give yourself a reality check and quit believing everything you are told be your animal rights agenda pushing professors.

"Collecting a few wilds and staying within your limits should not be looked down on?"

You are trying to minimize your impact and justify your actions. If collecting "a few wilds" is okay then so is selling "a few wilds." Most herp species have huge populations and collecting for whatever reason doesn't cause a negative impact. What limits? Who defines these limits? Most commonly collected herp species don't have a limit in TX. And there are a great deal more recreational folks then commercial. Try taking a fisheries science class this semester.

"Selling any wild animal is not right but getting wild feeders is about maintaining a professionally kept collection."

Selling wild caught herps is totally right and necessary. Over-harvesting herps would be wrong. Here again you are justifying. Most herp breeders feed domestically produced rodents. Getting wild caught feeders has nothing to do with "maintaining a professionally kept collection". Wild caught and sold feeders are necessary for trouble feeders that is all. When did getting wild feeders make you a professional?

"Some snakes cannot be bred and raised without wild lizards, they are necessary to the success of raising hatchling kings."

So you are justifying the selling of wild caught feeders? Occassionally they are needed but most kings are raised on rodents.

"I agree buy a captive bred over wild caught as they are almost always available and just more humane and less of a stress on the environment."

Many species are not bred in captivity. As a matter of fact more species are not bred in captivity. Only a small handful of popular pet species are bred. Why is it more humane to keep a captive born snake in captivity then a wild caught one? They are both being kept. Wild caughts are desired and needed. Just because you don't need any right now doesn't mean they should not be sustainably harvested for, research, new blood, locality or because no one is breeding them. Animals over-produce to compensate for predation (collecting) so I would have to disagree with about causing "stress on the environment". Many species put themselves and the resources in the habitat "in stress" by over-producing. An example here is deer. You might try taking a wildlife management class this semester.

"Wild caught snakes being legally sold destroys the fecundity rate of any reptile species, except those that are prolific in the wild."

Again, take a wildlife management class. It sounds like you are throwng out some newly learned term? Fecundity is the number of eggs or sperm produced by an organism. Legally selling herps has nothing to do with fecundity. Are you using the ones less female arguement? Well, remember that all animals can be harvetsed at some number without causing a negative impact on the population as a whole. The number that can be sustainably harvested is the number that can be sustainably harvested. It doesn't matter what you do with the animals that are sustainably harvested. You can kill them, keep them or sell them. It doesn't matter to the wild population.

Welkerii

Steve,

Selling wild caught is selling wild caught. Buying wild caught is supporting the sale of wild caught. That is fact. You can twist it anyway you want to justify it your mind but I suggest not being hypocritical.

Welkerii

Mike, I agree that buying or selling ANY wild caught is promoting the trade in such. However, there is some difference between WC trade in kings versus feeder lizards due to the much higher reproductive potential of the feeder lizards.

Just splitting hairs? Perhaps. That's why I oppose selling WC NATIVE feeder lizards and advocate using invasive species instead. Next time you (or anyone else) is out my way, I'd be glad to help you collect some Mediterranean geckos.

Eby,

I would defintely agree with you about exotics. There are plenty of med geckos and brown anoles to supply folks with feeder lizards. But if someone wanted to use a native food item there is no reason they shouldn't be allowed to do so. Most common herp species occur in huge numbers so harvest by recreational or commercial folks is a non-issue. And the harder-to-find species can not be collected in any numbers so that makes worries about them moot.

Welkerii

Thanks a lot for everyone’s input….Let me expand on what was a vague post on my part. I was trying to get some information on what most of you do for feeding your babies and adults….personally, I collect a few lizards and use them for scenting pink mice to get babies feeding. I am also curious about any avenues for purchasing lizards for feeders… I was also wondering if any of you feed adult alterna lizards in an effort to increase breeding results (a huge discussion a while back)!

The idea of acquiring introduced species of lizards for the purposes of feeding hatchling alterna is a great one. It was pointed out to me via email that Mediterranean Geckos can be purchased at a reasonable rate for such a purpose.

OHI, whoever you are, judging from your post here and elsewhere…you seem to be the Rudy Guliani of posters on this forum…you know “a noun, a verb, and 911” in all Rudy’s writings/speeches etc….Unlike him, however, you seem to incorporate a noun, a verb, and ”hey guys, I sell wild caught reptiles and amphibians of all sorts and see nothing wrong with it!” If you noticed, I never responded to any of the posts below where your sentiment was expressed….I personally do not collect wild reptiles or amphibians for resale (as per your diligent detective work, i.e., from your reading of my website)….I have my reasons for not selling wild-caught reptiles and amphibians. I do not, however, see anything wrong with the careful AND LEGAL harvesting of wild animals for resale. I am opposed to people traveling the lands collecting every single herp for resale….I have seen the latter a lot over the past 40 years and I do not think it helps our cause….I want to point out to you OHI, I have no idea where you stand on the above continuum….

Rick, I definitely see your point regarding the exclusive use of lizards for feeding a Gray-banded Kingsnake colony. However, I would never think of feeding my gray-banded kingsnakes exclusively on lizards! I know there has been some suggestion for that elsewhere, but I much prefer to feed rodents….I only use lizards for hatchlings and occasionally an adult Hueco animal. Usually, I find lizards DOR for the purposes of feeding the adult animal…I do have to go out and collect some smaller lizards for feeding hatchlings. As Joe pointed out, one lizard can be used for feeding multiple hatchlings…

I will have more to post on increasing Lampropeltis alterna egg production later without using lizards.(thanks to a suggestion from J. Forks and Ron Tremper)….once again thanks to all for the input…gmerker

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G. Merker

Gerald,

We know each other from a few chance meetings on the highways in west TX over the years. I am good friends with, your good friend, Barney Tomberlin. My posts were not designed to attack you but to attack the hypocritical actions, opinions and agenda of many on this forum concerning the sale of wild caught herps.

I make points and then my points become fact when they come true. That is why I keep popping up and upsetting everyone because I am correct. And I call the hypocrites out. I have said that the sale of wild caught is necessary and should be kept legal as you allude to in your post. However, I don't think that collecting everything seen on the roads in west TX while someone is out for their weekly trip causes any harm to populations. Populations are just way to big and access to them is so small. Not to mention there are not that many folks doing it.

I am not sure what the Rudy comments are about but, yes, I campaign for fair, reasonable and non-discriminatory herp regs. I believe that much of the impact of collectors is over blown and that many academics and hobbyists push a hijacked animal rights agenda. They basically make a lot of assumptions and insert a lot of opinion and have zero data. And many are hypocritical.

You are free to do and think what you want as am I. I know that the collecting, selling and the continual ability to commerce in herps is vitally important to many including researchers and hobbyists. As far as collectors go I think the focus should be on over-collection not sales. And as far as the conservation of herps the biggest culprit is habitat destruction.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

No one in here really cares what you do, until you go making enemies out of them. The more enemies you make in this forum, the harder it is going to get on you (in terms of a legislative fight) It's that simple, and that is fact.

Additionally, if you spent as much time writing letters to Sinclair, Wagner, Flores, Perry, your Rep, and your Senator, as you do ragging on the Gray-banded guys (you are a Gray-band collector yourself) then you might be doing yourself some good instead of digging yourself a bigger hole.

We've told you no less than 100 times that we are NOT fighting to get you shut down. You need to think about what you are accomplishing by making enemies out of us. Your energy here is counter productive to your cause.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Joe,

I posted a sincere response to your post above and I have been censored. For the record.

Welkerii