Reptile & Amphibian Forums

has anybody ever seen this snake?? is it like purple?

No one has ever made one as far as I know.
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John Vandegrift

wouldn't that make DH's and then need to breed them back to one another?
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Greg Holland
GMHERPS Hunting & Reptiles
www.imageevent.com/gmherps
gmherps@gmail.com

Ralph Davis crossed Caramel and Lavender in his 2005 clutch number 3 producing normal looking double hets and proving that Caramel and Lavender aren't compatible.

When I see “X” I think “cross” referring to a breeding but the original poster might have been referring to the next generation combo of the two traits. For some reason you can't use the plus symbol on this forum.

I suppose RDR's one female double het from that 05 clutch might have been big enough to produce this year so maybe a chance soon to see if the two traits can be seen in the same snake or not.

Thought I had read that RDR had finally gotten a good clutch of Lavender X Albino (regular) but I couldn't seem to find it right now. Maybe it was someone else but I thought that cross had been done and proved Lavender and Albino incompatible.

Still waiting to hear of anyone crossing Caramel and Albino where I've actually heard of a situation that might be explained by them being alleles.

i understand that breeding the two togther the first time you would only get hets. but has anybody bred past that? like his dreamsicles. a mix of the two morphs? how would they not be compatiable. cant you mix any morph?

"i understand that breeding the two togther the first time you would only get hets."

I wasn't assuming that. It could have turned out that lavender and caramel where alleles - different mutations of the same gene - and rather than double hets the initial cross might have produced some sort of albino or other not normal animal. The only recessive example I can think of is stripe and motley in corn snakes. But a co-dominant example is Mojave and Lesser.

But RDR (and perhaps also others) has proven that lavender and caramel are mutations of different genes by getting normal looking double hets from the initial cross.

I believe but wish I could find confirmation that the same test has been done for lavender and regular albino to confirm that they produce the expected normal looking double hets.

Until someone comes forward and reports crossing regular albino and caramel it's still possible that those two mutations will prove compatible by producing some sort of albino looking babies. It's probably more likely they will produce the normal looking double hets everyone expects but if it did turn out that caramel and albino are alleles it would totally explain an old case of confusion with expected caramel hets.

"but has anybody bred past that? like his dreamsicles."

I haven't looked close at RDR's yet to hatch 2008 breeding records. Check it out and see if his 05 double het lavender and caramel female has a clutch in there. There could be others by now but then again no one seems to be in a hurry to breed albino to caramel so maybe RDR is the only one working on the lavender and caramel combo.

"a mix of the two morphs? how would they not be compatiable. cant you mix any morph?"

I was talking about being combatable to produce a morph at the initial cross like stripe and motley in corn snakes but you bring up some interesting questions about combos.

Could we ever run into a combo where both morphs are viable by them selves but the two together are fatal?

If two mutations where of genes that where very close together on the same chromosome it could take a long time to get the right crossover to make anything more than double hets.

There is also the scenario where one morph covers over and hides the expression of the other. For example how would you know if a leucistic was also axanthic? You could still have the genetic combo and use it for breeding purposes but it might turn out that the double homozygous lavender and caramel (assuming they are different genes) would look just like one or the other. I believe this is the main reason that no one wants to try breeding albino to caramel. The general assumption is that they will not be compatible at the initial cross and that the next generation combo will look like regular albino so not worth all the trouble.

seriously forgive me for being new to all this. I get what you're saying about them being so closely related so nobody wants to breed the two. I to believe it was the guy b4 u that said normal double hets. I just think it would be a pretty cool snake maybe purple-ly. It got me thinking maybe it would produce a snow. It looks like people are seeing if they can make snows out of caramels. I assume they are breeding it with the black and white axanthics. Who knows. I don't really understand everything about genetics. I just assumed u could mix them all! Im sure somebodies out there trying.

Nothing to forgive and keep asking questions. My answers may be wrong but it's a fun discussion.

The idea of two different recessive morphs being compatible the first generation (i.e. of them turning out to be alleles, two different mutations of the same gene) is something almost no one seems to expect. It's probably not too likely but it has been seen in other herps so we might run into it eventually with ball pythons. I had thought maybe pied and clown might be but from what TSK posted about that project it sounds like not. It will be years and years yet before I have my own albino and caramel to put them to the test.

We got a DBL het male carmale lavander albino from RDR when he first produced the dbl hets. Our male has bred the last 2 years and we have held back all his 50-50 daughters. We should have a few up to size next breeding season, hopefully we will get lucky and hit iin the odds. Ralph should be the first to do it, like Randy said he should have a female that was up to size for this season.
Kim
N.A.R.C

if ralphs breeding them this year then it's a secret. I didn't examine his records for this year but I don't remember seeing this combo. It might be a secret.