Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Its a long story, but we are just about at wits end trying to come up with a solution. I thought someone here might have a answer.
Some of you may know, some might not know, we produce the "Kachunga and the Alligator show". We have been in business since 1988 performing at state and county fairs, theme parks, zoos and overseas at special events. This year I have performed at the Delaware, Vermont and Kentucky State fairs and am scheduled to perform at Tennessee and Kansas state fairs.
The head game officer in TN, Walter Cook, will not grant us a import/export/exhibit permit for the fair, which starts next week. He says we did not file in time (21 days). It took me one week to secure the Vermont permit and three days to secure a NY permit so I dont see how it should take TN three weeks to permit. Logistically its not even possible to time application of the permit with vet health certificates with the dates of the fair. The total of those days are more than the health certificate is valid for (30 days). He told us this isnt his problem and in so many words said he didnt want any alligators coming into HIS state anyway.
We have a ten day contract with the Tennessee state fair. Does anyone know any person that owns a 7-9 foot alligator that is permitted in the state of Tennessee? I know this is a long shot, but we would fairly compensate the owner just to save face to the fair.
If you have any ideas, let me know. It may be a lost cause and in the future we will avoid any shows in TN. I hate that the people of TN lose out because of one persons decision.
Thanks,
Bert
Kachunga and the Alligator show.

But after watching one of your video clips, I'd be hard pressed to loan an alligator for this type of show....it looks like its more about the show than the education (I honestly didn't see the education in the show....just a lot of machismo). But, I do wish you the best in trying to rectify the problem - it's too bad various agencies can't get on the same page. Everyone has "their thing" and deserve to make a livelihood - from what I saw, it just didn't do it for me.

>>Its a long story, but we are just about at wits end trying to come up with a solution. I thought someone here might have a answer.
>>Some of you may know, some might not know, we produce the "Kachunga and the Alligator show". We have been in business since 1988 performing at state and county fairs, theme parks, zoos and overseas at special events. This year I have performed at the Delaware, Vermont and Kentucky State fairs and am scheduled to perform at Tennessee and Kansas state fairs.
>>The head game officer in TN, Walter Cook, will not grant us a import/export/exhibit permit for the fair, which starts next week. He says we did not file in time (21 days). It took me one week to secure the Vermont permit and three days to secure a NY permit so I dont see how it should take TN three weeks to permit. Logistically its not even possible to time application of the permit with vet health certificates with the dates of the fair. The total of those days are more than the health certificate is valid for (30 days). He told us this isnt his problem and in so many words said he didnt want any alligators coming into HIS state anyway.
>>We have a ten day contract with the Tennessee state fair. Does anyone know any person that owns a 7-9 foot alligator that is permitted in the state of Tennessee? I know this is a long shot, but we would fairly compensate the owner just to save face to the fair.
>>If you have any ideas, let me know. It may be a lost cause and in the future we will avoid any shows in TN. I hate that the people of TN lose out because of one persons decision.
>>Thanks,
>>Bert
>>Kachunga and the Alligator show.
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Rob,
What clip did you see? I dont think its fair to judge something by a three minute YouTube video. The show is 22 minutes long. The first 10 minutes I dont even touch the animal. The show script is six pages long. Trust me there is plenty of education in there.

I would like to say, that first and foremost, I have been able to see the full show...in person, on a few different occasions. I will say that Kachunga does include a fair amount of educational material in their shows. I've seen Bert's Show personally.

With that being said, I do wish at some point we could work more towards teaching about alligators without having to "man-handle" them. I can certainly understand Rob's concerns, but as he said, everybody has their thing and has to make a living. A few alligators being used for this purpose, if it helps save 1 more in the wild or allow it to be treated with more respect...I suppose I'm all for it. Personally, I'd like to see more shows with the use of Operant conditioning and training, moreso, than "wrestling" (but to quote Bert's show, "It's not really wrestling, because, Alligators don't really know much about wrestling".

Anyhow, just my thoughts.

Chris

>>Rob,
>>What clip did you see? I dont think its fair to judge something by a three minute YouTube video. The show is 22 minutes long. The first 10 minutes I dont even touch the animal. The show script is six pages long. Trust me there is plenty of education in there.
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My Website
www.herpfanatic.com

Although it was a short segment, there's just something about manhandling an alligator that doesn't want to be manhandled that just sends the wrong message no matter what educational message there is....the education is quickly lost in my opinion when you see a gator thrashing for its life (and I've been in the field of professional wildlife education for many years). I completely agree with the last post, educate through operant conditioning skills - that's a skill that provides a much better vehicle for education.

>>I would like to say, that first and foremost, I have been able to see the full show...in person, on a few different occasions. I will say that Kachunga does include a fair amount of educational material in their shows. I've seen Bert's Show personally.
>>
>>With that being said, I do wish at some point we could work more towards teaching about alligators without having to "man-handle" them. I can certainly understand Rob's concerns, but as he said, everybody has their thing and has to make a living. A few alligators being used for this purpose, if it helps save 1 more in the wild or allow it to be treated with more respect...I suppose I'm all for it. Personally, I'd like to see more shows with the use of Operant conditioning and training, moreso, than "wrestling" (but to quote Bert's show, "It's not really wrestling, because, Alligators don't really know much about wrestling".
>>
>>Anyhow, just my thoughts.
>>
>>Chris
>>
>>>>Rob,
>>>>What clip did you see? I dont think its fair to judge something by a three minute YouTube video. The show is 22 minutes long. The first 10 minutes I dont even touch the animal. The show script is six pages long. Trust me there is plenty of education in there.
>>-----
>>My Website
>>www.herpfanatic.com
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Thanks for your opinion. I'll keep my remarks to myself and take your comments under advisement.

I haven't seen the show in question but I abhor alligator wrestling style shows and think they do nothing at all to influence conservation. I think they influence conservation about the same amount as matadors influence vegatarians.
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CDieter
'Reason, observation, and experience; the holy trinity of science.'

Gentlemen,
For the last time, we dont engage in a wrestling show. The term "wrestle" implies that there is a winner and a loser. Back in the 1950's it was popular to wrestle an alligator into submission. This 2008 and thats not what I do. I dont "wrestle" the animal any more than anyone handling a large python "wrestles" it. These are large and dangerous animals that unfortunately dont cooperate without some physical activity.
If you have a problem with the concept of having a 24'X28' portable habitat, two animals that are on display for the public and the fact that I hold on to an animal that doesnt want to be held onto, then thats fine. I respect your opinion. I wish education was as easy as getting on stage and reading out of a text book with no animals stressed. But that does not engage the public. To generalize a comment like "I dont see it as being educational" disrespects the tens of thousands of people I see and talk to every year. I have taken my show to the Philippines, Hawaii, Puerto Rico, Canada and nearly all of the US states in between. Im not boasting when I say that we educate more people in any given time period then all of you combined.
Mr. Carmichael, I think its great that you have taken your love for herps and animals and have been able to develop a relationship with your community to build a zoo. I will stop by next summer tour and visit for sure. Mr. Dieter, I think its great that you have taken your passion for crocodiles and turned it into an educational program that serves the school system in Houston. Admittedly neither of you have seen my show in its entirety. And if you do see it, you may think that its not your "cup of tea", but you will walk away at least thinking that we are all on the same team.
Regards,
Bert
ps: Mr. Dieter, the show will be in Lufkin, at the Texas State Forest Festival Sept 26-28 if you would like to make the trip up and see this for yourself. Gil and David will be there and would be happy to talk with you.