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This is something that bewilders me, I have seen pictures of older collareds, with extremely kinked tails. I have seen pics of young collareds with the same damage to tails. I have seen pictures of collareds in the wild with them, as well as in captivity. This leads me to believe it is not really something we are doing or not doing, causing this tail damage. But wonder what we might learn may be the cause , as to maybe curb this .
Many of you eariler, had said, you believe it is an issue with lack of calcuim. Well if that be the case, I don't know how much they are suppose to have, but mine get plenty. I dust their bugs, I feed the insects the best greens, carrots veggies, dog food, or sorts of extra items, full of vitamins, an over all well rounded as far as I know diet. It will be interesting to me to see if Kinky the yellowheads' tail becomes worse, stays the same, or what.
Also why this is on my mind, I had a very interesting discussion last night with a breeder, of yellowheads, And was told that 3 of the 4 of his males, had kinky tails, these were originally wc.
Now what is going on in the wild that is causing this? And is it showing up more in one species as opposed to another?
Just wondering about it, and if anybody else had given it any more thought Eve

I know in some species of lizards kinked tails are a sign of inbreeding and/or genetic deformation however I would find that hard to believe in WC animals however. Hi Eve!@
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Peace!
KofSeattle
Reptile-Like
Here lizard lizard.........

I have only seen one picture of a kinky tail lizard, and it is likely the same picture we all have seen. The one I am referring to is on not other than Will Well's site. The tail on that collared is the most whacked thing I've ever seen. My guess is calcium would not have not that in 5 years without. That had to be (in my 100% genuine opinion) a direct result of mistreatment of somekind. My guess is it got shaken like a rag doll by the tail as a juvie, and all the vertebrae healed back up however they were positioned. I'd love to see more pics of different lizards in the wild with tail of that nature.

Every lizard I have seen have had beatiful tail so far. My guess, is when something gets a hold of a tail, they usually finish by eating the lizards. Could have been a young animal honing in on its hunting skills which would damage a tail and leave the lizard.

I wonder if the tail kinking can be stress induced. When I captured Squash, his tail was perfect. He was very unhappy when I caugth him. I only help him briefly, and never swung him by the tail, or pinched him contrary to popular opinion I am totaling voicing my opionion, but I think sudden induced stress can weaken the tissue which hold the tail nice and straight, thus making it more prone to kinds (or imperfection LOL).

I seen this happen with Sqaush soon after I collected him. HIs tail had very slight zig zags about 2 inches from the tip. This is an example of how I think it can be stress related.

I also think it is a direct result of impact...jumping up and down, repeatedly landing on it and bending it. Spice is exhibiting some slight kinks. Hardly noticeable, but it is bothering me already. The tail is a beautiful thing to waste!

John (full of 100% genuine opinions)

different species, if you look it up , bearded dragons , sometimes snakes, leopard geckos, to name a few !

In captivity, it very well could play a role, but it has to be more than just calcium. The tail is comprised of bones, but it does not seem to be the bones causing the problems, it's the tissue holding the bones straight. If one is not seeing curvature in legs, back, toe nodules, and that sort of thing, then it is likely not MBD related.

John

I don't know what the he*% it is, but I don't think it is calcuim.

tails. Another arguement against calcium. We would need to know they are also using adequate Vit. D3 in conjunction with adequate rays (as in UVB). I know people that are doing that and still get the kinks.

I am pondering...if a lizard in not getting enough H20 from it's diet or supplmentation, it could possibly dehydrate the muscles in the tail enough to weaken it. Then, in conjunction with jumping up and down, constantly bending the tail back on itself could indeed cause disfigurement.

Then again, I haven't really noticed a problem since using filter sand.

John LMAO Eddington

What? I dont think Calcuim because the lizards who are in the wild that have kinked tails must get more D3 from natural sun then captive bred, but still their tails kink also. I woulod have to say something definietlt lacking in DIET ! And stress may factor in ! NOT PLAY SAND THATS FOR DANG SURE JohnEEE LMAO

I think the lizard with kinked tails are resulting from some vigorous shaking by the tail...not diet at all. If it were diet related, I'd expect a few things to be true...

1) The lizard must have some other handicap to make it suck at catching food.

2) If number one is False, then I'd expect there to be several lizards within the population to have kinky tails.

I honestly believe a collared can miss every meal...wither away and die without ever kinking his tail...Nothing in his diet would be considered a poor diet right?

I would expect a more reasonable poor diet would consist of eating a select few offering, enough to stay alive and gain weight, etc, but be lacking in essential vit/minerals.

Again though, for this to be the case, one would see it occurring more than seldomly within a population of lizards (in my opinion)

John Eddington

I must admit this, Kinky's tail has many kinks, this is why DC named him that. But This is an observation I have made looking at KInky, he is acually holding his tail much straighter now, it has the kinks don't get me wrong, but since he is eating well, now basking, and enjoying the comapany of Chinook, LOL he is not holding it quite as loose and curved if you know what I mean???
I guess a good way to put it is this... he seems to have more control over it ! Also on a more negitive note, and back to calucuim deficeintcy, he seems to have had some form of MBD in my opinion, because his upper lip or jaw seems to jet out a bit, a tiny bit , but still I see it ! But he seems to be improving, all in all. His color seems a litlte brighter as well. I will continue to watch him !!! Eve

My bluestar male had a tiny underbite. Who knows...I doubt it is MBD...Maybe if it was side to side, or crooked jaws (as in bone disfigurement) then it would be more likely brittle or rubber bones.

John

their jaws get real bad and it is called RUBBER JAW, becomes very disfiguring ! Shame because this condition is usaully the fault of OWNER and lack of care as in lighting and calcium. But kinky's lip and I made a mistake in last post, it is his LOWER lip or jaw that pertrudes a teeny bit, anyway it is not rubbery just different. Iam between scrubing floors so I must get back, its beena great dicussion Johneee , but your choice of sand is still ridiculous, over priced and silly, LMAO

After all, a recent study has linked the use of heat rocks in reptile enclosures to the shifting of the earth's magnetic poles, famine in third-world countries, and the energy crisis...so, why not kinked tails in collared lizards as well? LOL!!

Brock

on kinky tails in captivity as well as in the wild????????????
LOL Come on waiting Eve

Therefore it is true on both accounts.

1)They are dangerous
2)They cause kinks

my collared has on kink at the end of his tail, he got it from when my dad accidently put a rock down on the tip of his tail

I've had a couple/three accidents of the sort. Two deaths by rocks, and one death by fluorescent light. You can never be too carefull with those things.

The rock incidents were unusual though. They rocks did not crush them, the sqeezed under them and could not get out.

J

they probably dug underneath it and dug out all the dirt keeping the rock up.. i keep my flourexcent light outside of my cage so he doesnt hurt himself, whenever i take him out he always jumps at it

I've been reluctant to offer much of an opinion on the possible cause(s) of kinked tails because, quite frankly, I really don't know. I can, however, share a couple first-hand observations on the subject:
Of the 50 or so collared lizards I have hatched out in captivity since 1997, six neonates were born with distinctly kinked tails...five coming from the same clutch. (Incidentally, all of these lizards retained the kinks to varying degees into adulthood, but they became less obvious over time.) I've also noticed that the tails of gravid females (in captivity) which have recently oviposited will occasionally develop slight kinks. This condition quickly disappears once she replenishes her "fat" reserves, however. I myself have never had a collared lizard develop a permanent crease in its tail that wasn't present from birth...but obviously it can and does happen. Lastly, I too have encountered collared lizards in the field with kinked tails. Some of these lizards appeared rather emaciated, while others were in seemingly perfect health.
Now, as for establishing a cause/effect relationship with this phenomenon in general...your guess is as good as mine. I will say that the primary cause of kinked tails in some lizards may be quite unrelated to what produces kinked tails in others. For example, Jesper recently provided us with Robert S.' interesting theory (from his book) that kinked tails in hatchling Crotaphytus could be due to exposure to high temperatures during the incubation process...

Brock

opinions , thoughts facts, all very interesting. I enjoyed the discussion, and I suppose we will all learn more as time goes on about the matter. It certainly would be nice to find the cause and correct it. Who knows maybe someday we may ! Anyway thanks everyone for your input ! And John we still dont like your stupid pool sand LMAO ya did not think I was going to stay seriou did ya Eve

heat rocks and poverty! Its true! LOL
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Let there be Lizardz.
- Scott

....nice thread though. In the specific case of "Kinky"... all of these lizards (Kinky, Sampson/Delilah, and LT) were collected from a specific locality for the purposes of a study, and I believe having the 'sample' come from a specific population was of some importance, as the study involved some comparisons to various other populations. My information was that Kinky did not take well to captivity initially and so PROBABLY did the (mechanical) damage to his tail from his repeated jumping and escape attempts. The other lizards from his 'area' have perfect tails, especially LT LOL. Note also that Kinky is missing the last couple of inches of his tail as well. Collareds do not have the caudal fracture planes which make the tails so fragile in the many other lizard species which use 'caudal autonomy' as an escape mechanism. They ARE said to have a loosly attached skin covering the last bit of the tail, which will slough off if trapped during an escape attempt, resulting in the necrosis of the exposed tail tissues and eventual 'loss' of some amount of the tail. This is sort of what I see when I look at Kinky... But I can try to get some more details about his history.
That said, I too have seen the 'infamous picture' of at least one wild collared with a very screwed tail, and as I recall, the photo was captioned with words to the effect that this was attributable to a deficiency of some sort. I can sort of envision a scenario in which this could happen as a matter of 'timing', if the lizard was subjected to some really stressful famine or poor dietary conditions during the youthful period of very rapid growth. Deprivations during this period can cause lasting defects in many other animals. I would expect some of the guys like Brock and Will would have seen (if not actually photographed) enough individuals to get a good feel for whether or not this is something that actually 'happens' in wild lizards.

DC
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I've got the blues...LOL...them screamin' yellow-head blues...

very much correct. Injuries are a common cause whether it be self inflicted or from another animal chomping on them. Also what Brock quoted from Robert's book. It has been documented(don't ask where but I was given some information by Dr. Montanucci) in Pagona, and Sauromalus that too high of an incubation temperature(in the later stages of incubation) and improper humidty can cause spine and tail deformities. I though it had something to do with the lizard using more oxygen than the egg shell will allow to pass through it. I suspect it is probably true for just about all lizards. You will get this in the wild we all know how unpredictable the weather is. I imagine most well placed nest in the wild are not effected by this but I imagine not all lizards are perfect or we would be overrun with them LOL.

Good post ! Good discussion ! Eve