Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have some really high-orange colored cornsnakes in my collection and I'm wondering if they have some blood red corn influence in their genetic makeup or are they just some pretty wild types? There are a few reasons why I suggest this. I've
included some pictures as well.

This pic shows one of my bright females and if you check her saddles and side blotches you'll see they fade away which is typical of blood red corns.

http://members.toast.net/blackswampserpents/autumn1.jpg

This 2nd pic of the same snake shows the red color "bleed" into the belly area for at least half the snake's length. A true blood red would have no belly checkers.

http://members.toast.net/blackswampserpents/autumn2.jpg

A sibling to this female is a male I also held back for breeding. Notice the same diffused saddles and blotches.

http://members.toast.net/blackswampserpents/amberflame1.jpg

A 2nd pic of that male's belly.

http://members.toast.net/blackswampserpents/amberflame2.jpg

The other thing you notice is that both snakes look hypo because of the reduced black around the saddles and over-all bright look to the snakes. However, I bred the male to a true hypo corn this past year and the offspring are all normal looking so while he has reduced black, I cannot call him hypomelanistic.

Through some past breeding trials they are both het Amel because when bred together they gave me some very bright amels along with super bright high-orange normals.

Here are two 06 hold backs: (pic attached to this post)
A stunning amel (Sunglow if you will):

http://members.toast.net/blackswampserpents/06baby1.jpg

A high-orange colored normal with diffused saddles and starting to resemble the parents:
(The other baby present is a very light colored Amel produced from a Snow to a Butter. Notice the yellow influence from the Butter.

http://members.toast.net/blackswampserpents/06baby2.jpg

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Ken Roshak
BlackSwampSerpents@toast.net

i would say its probably the het for amel that makes the reduced black on the snakes... i have a high orange male and his belly background is almost red but has BLACK checkers... very friendly snake.. beautiful too... HUGE boy!! But i would say that since both are het amel (which i assume they are since you got amels when you bred them together) it would be the reduction of black "masking" the black pigment only letting a little come through...

~kin
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~Sober Serpents~
www.freewebs.com/soberserpents
Corns, Creamsicles, A Black Rat, A pair of Leucistic Black Rat X Leucistic Texas Rat Intergrades, Thayeri, Cal Kings, A Jungle Corn, Ball Pythons, A reverse Trio of Candoia, Leopard Geckos, Green Anoles, a Snapping Turtle, a White Cheeked Mud Turtle, a Bearded Dragon, an Adult Rescue Iguana, and A Baby Iguana

Cute kitty

My Oldest normal male also have the red diffusion on the belly. I'd always described it as what he'd look like if he had gone through a bag of Doritos.

So this may be an indication of being het Amel?

To the OP: Beautiful 'sunglow'!

well, maybe reduced black on the belly pattern and dorsal saddles may indicate het for amel, but the red belly is also found in some okeetees.... so there may be a possibility that the red belly snakes are pure or outcrossed high end okeetees!?!?!
~kin
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~Sober Serpents~
www.freewebs.com/soberserpents
Corns, Creamsicles, A Black Rat, A pair of Leucistic Black Rat X Leucistic Texas Rat Intergrades, Thayeri, Cal Kings, A Jungle Corn, Ball Pythons, A reverse Trio of Candoia, Leopard Geckos, Green Anoles, a Snapping Turtle, a White Cheeked Mud Turtle, a Bearded Dragon, an Adult Rescue Iguana, and A Baby Iguana

>>My Oldest normal male also have the red diffusion on the belly. I'd always described it as what he'd look like if he had gone through a bag of Doritos.

Haha that's a funny way to put it, I like that!

>>To the OP: Beautiful 'sunglow'!

Thanks! It's definitely one of my favs!

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Ken Roshak
BlackSwampSerpents@toast.net

I never thought about the het amel reducing the black, good point. And beautiful snake, by the way.
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Ken Roshak
BlackSwampSerpents@toast.net

Bloodred corns originate from wild caught types that were nearly unicolor red to begin with and then selectively bred (and crossed to diffused-side corns). So it's quite possible that many wild corns have some bloodred characteristics.

Tim

Third Eye

The original Bloodreds were collected by Eddie Leach in Hastings, Fl. in the 1970's. That is near St. Augustine. He was employed by the Univ. of Fl. at that time. Eventually he offered his entire colony for sale to me and others. I almost bought all then. At that time Bill Love was employed by me and he and Kathy purchased some if not all of them. Several locales in Fl. pproduce similar looking snakes. In fact there is a snake from Pinnellas Co. posted now that looks similar. That as Paul Harvey used to say is "the rest of the story"........TC....This is my first post on this forum as I am a lurker but I thought someone might have an interest in the origination of the line....TC

Hi, and I really appreciate your post. I was wondering if you could shed (pun) some light on the stories that the first bloodreds had small if not weak babies.

Also more important to me. The stories of the above lead people to outcross the bloodreds. If so, I'll presume you have some solid info on how many generations it took/will take to work your way back to a "solid looking" bloodred. I outcrossed a female I had years ago and the babies were all over the place looks wise. So I imagine with nice size clutches you in a sense line breed the look from the best looking babies. Which I know makes this question hard to answer.

Sadly I lost that 1st female as she had issues after laying eggs. And with great ignorance I sold the babies. Some were very very nice.

Right now, just by chance I got one of those babies back. Unfortunately it was one that was not so nice. But a female. And she bred to my male.

Again, I was just wondering how long it takes to get nice bloodreds working with outcrosses.

My male is nice, not super special, and my feamle is a rather typical looking outcross.

Ist female from about 6 years ago

Current male, and that pose is no bluff. he thinks hes an african rick python

Outcross feamle. NOT a great pic. She's super timid. So i have not taken many pics

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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com

It is true the first babies were probalmatical feeders BUT only if you tried to make them eat pinkies. Most Corns here in Fl. eat anoles early on and Bloodreds for a little longer. So why try to outcross them just feed them anoles at first. I do this on MANY herps. My girlfriend, Patty has a number of adult and baby Bloodreds and while some babies are eating pinkies most are eating anoles....TC

I know you must be busy, but it is nice to see some of the people I heard about in the 70's.

Infromation from some of the people that started this hobby has great value, and I do apreciate the time for you to post.
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com

On the original Bloodreds I don't recall ANY black at all around the dorsal blotches. It has been a long time since then. Bill and Kathy Love were more involved than me because of their Corn addiction[lol]. Perhaps they could provide more info in detail.....TC

I saw a reference in a book once to a "hastings corn" that looked a lot like a bloodred. Were bloodreds ever called Hasting's corns?

>>The original Bloodreds were collected by Eddie Leach in Hastings, Fl. in the 1970's.
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Ken Roshak
BlackSwampSerpents@toast.net

It's possible but I've never seen the pics.....TC

Ken,

The pictures I've seen of Hastings Phase corns leads me to believe they are just standard Florida ( western) Corns with a fair amount of red in them.

Matthew

Thanks to everyone for an interesting Blood Red history lesson.
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Ken Roshak
BlackSwampSerpents@toast.net

Way to come out of "lurking" Tom!, and tell the good people of the forum that interesting info about the Bloodreds.

I trust those occipitolineata are doing well?

~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Their doing great but thus far after offering a plethora of food items they have not eaten yet. They will over time I'm sure....TC

"Their doing great but thus far after offering a plethora of food items they have not eaten yet."

Yes, I can certainly relate to THAT!,...the pair I had many years ago, were the exact same way. I had to give them little shots of egg, and a couple force-fed hatchling anoles until one day they finally ate a pinky voluntarily.

Ground Skinks seem to be the "holy grail" of food preference, but finding them(as you know) can be much tougher..LOL! Same thing applies to these silly-ass OBK's(sticticeps)!!!...geesh!

later buddy!, ~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Surprised to see you here on a CORN forum, lol!

I think virtually ALL of the bloods you see these days have been outcrossed, except maybe the ones that Mike Frase found around his house in St. Augustine. I bred one of my amel bloods to one of his, and the babies are very nice - can't wait to see them as adults. Of course, that mixing of lines is why we now have blood / diffused combos in everything from charcoals to amels to ghosts, and everything else.

The "old" original bloods from Eddie Leach did have some black borders dorsally. But they acquired so much darkness ("dirty wash" as they got older, that they often appeared to be an almost uniform dark, brick red after a few years of maturity.

The first and second generation babies from the original stock tended to produce huge clutches of tiny eggs, and those little babies were often difficult to start. But after the first few outcrosses, most bloods have the same size clutches and eggs as other corns. My personal experience is that some bloodlines (my old line of pewters) tend to be more difficult starters, and often want anoles, as compared to other bloodlines.

that I posted on this forum and not boids, crocs, Cyclura, etc. Patty has gotten VERY interested in Corns and has a sizable and quality collection. You and Bill are somewhat to blame for that I might add. I will have to admit as I get older I'm developing more of an interest in Fl. herps, not necessarily rare just excellent examples of various species. It probably has a lot to do with my 500% increase in field herping like I used to do back in the day. Bill was a more than willing companion on many a hunt both in Fl. and a couple of times out west as I recall. Oh well, perhaps I'm trying to relive my youth.....TC

Mr. Crutchfield, it is very clear in my life I am reliving my youth. Same reptile interests and changes to some parrots.

I just find it so much harder. I was just wondering if this is a universal conundrum? I mean, it seems on some days waking up is a laudable feat! LOL. OK, just trying to be a bit humorous. But I remember your name from when I was a kid tagging along with a lot of the older guys in the Cleveland, Ohio area. I hope to finally get my health together for one of the big shows just to meet some of the people I've chatted with in forums, and have heard about for so many years.

Thanks again
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com

Well if you ever get to Fl. you are more than welcome to stop by. I'm still working with a lot of the same stuff I have for my entire life. Look forward to meeting you...TC

I WAS shocked! But I remember seeing you in Daytona and you said Patty had just bought some corns. I didn't realize she was getting so serious about them. Well, it took a few decades (and maybe some guidance from your "better half"?) for you to see the light, haha!

You've got to admit that if you want to be a "biological artist" with a large palette of colors, you can't do better than a corn. However, Amazon tree boas might give them a run for their money, once enough c.b. are being produced to see what is lurking in their genes.

Bill has really gone crazy with the field herping these days. All he really ever wants to do is go out in the field and photo anything he can find, big or small.

Good to see you on a corn forum. Maybe you can get Patty involved on some of the corn forums too.

What forums would you suggest she peruse other than Kingsnake. Although she now does most of the husbandry with everything but venomous she, as you know, was terrified of snakes when I met her 8 years ago. Her favorites are Corns and Greybanded Kings. Here's a couple of pics with another favorite, Rosco the Rhino. He's the one Nigel Marven always borrows for television interviews etc. She is of course still a begginner and doesn't want to be attacked because of her lack of knowledge....TC

I was looking for a picture of a package I got years ago that was all torn up. It was for the thread on shipping, but browsing through Picasa2 I saw this.

Scarey part is, I'm now built for the santa roll! OUCH

PS please note the custom boa tee shirt, and it you look close that is a silver dog collar chain I wore as a necklace. No one ever knew what it was. And they liked it.

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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com

I guess that's one of the best things about corns, the endless genetic possibilities But I do long for a bloodred corn of days gone by.
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Ken Roshak
BlackSwampSerpents@toast.net

It is nice to read this and learn a bit about the history of the bloodred corn. herpsltd, I don't know who you are but thanks for shedding some light on this.

I'm also wondering how long it would take to get nice bloodreds from outcrosses.

I have one female bloodred in my collection and she is one of my best breeders. I have been crossing her with a different male every year trying to work with the bloodred genetics.

2 yrs ago I bred her to a 'normal' male...don't know what if anything is hidden in his genotype.

Last year I bred her to my male snow het hypo.

This year I bred her to a butter motley.

Next year I'm going to breed her to a striped motley.

No matter what I breed her to the hatchlings come out the same. At first they look like normals but they have a higher red pigmentation as they mature and many look like someone took an eraser down the lengths of their bellies leaving behind just a bit of pattern along the sides of the bellies. Although the babies from this year look to be the reddest I have seen yet.

I have kept some babies every year and will breed them together in an attempt to produce bloodreds and some of the bloodred designer morphs....what is the chance of success??

Thanks. This is a very interesting thread.

Outcrossed bloodred pile:

My name is Tom Crutchfield and I wouldn't try to outbreed at all. The originals were stunning unto themselves....TC

Thanks Tom.

You're right, the originals are stunning. I've just kind of had to work with what I've got though and try to do the best I can with that.

I'm sure Bloodreds will improve anything you choose to mix them with. I'm really not opposed as they've been outcrossed for over 30 years anyway....TC