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I've been getting asked about these ever since this clutch hatched out, but I wanted to be pretty sure of what was going on before I made another post. I originally thought the green/labyrinths were just greens, and the heavily spotted green in the clutch was a green/labyrinth. Seemed to make since as the green looked more like what I was expecting a green/labyrinth to look like. Shortly after things shed out I really started having some doubts, and could tell what I thought were greens with not spots looked very unusal. Then when my albino green clutch hatched which contained albino greens 50% het labyrinth it was pretty clear what I thought was a green/labyrinth was really a green when compared to the albino greens 50% het labyrinth with heavy spotting. So the next question was are any of them green/labyrinths? Maybe not having any spots dorsally or on the sides is an indicator of them being het for labyrinth? That isn't likely as the albino green clutch had nothing even remotely similar to what I thought were greens with no spots. Infact, I suspect the greens and albino greens with more spotting in the clutch will be much more likely to prove out het for labyrinth versus the greens with less spotting on the sides. I say the pictures speak for them selves, and you can decide what you want. As you can see they have a much different color than the green. Plus there are no spots on them what so ever, not even going down the back which I don't believe I've ever seen a green not have.

Green/labyrinth(no spots) with Green 66% het labyrinth sibling(spots)

This is a picture of the two green/labyrinths together

Here is the green 66% het labyrinth from the clutch with a half sibling albino green 50% het labyrinth.

Last here are some more pics of one of the green/labyrinths

Great day in the mornin', Ben! I don't what's more of a mess - your clutches, your huge one paragraph or all the jumbled terms (50% albino labyrinth green 66% wannabe snake). Hahahaha!!!

You know I'm pickin' at ya.

I think you were more on target with your initial thoughts. I'd say the absent of side marking is green related, not labyrinth. Plus, the side markings that are present are aberrant, like labs are, and not more uniformed as with normals.

My question is what's the ratio of snakes with side markings, like the ones pictured, from the 50% clutch compared to the ones from the 66% clutch? Does the ratio reflect the percentage of het possibility?

I'm in a rush and will take a more in depth look later today.

Catch ya later!
Mike
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

Hey Michael!

Sorry if that paragraph was a little hard to understand. I should have went through it a little better....lol

I only had 4 burms that showed the green gene in the green/lab clutch. The two with no pattern what so ever, then the one with lots of spots and an albino just like the green with lots of spots. Everything in that clutch that isn't a lab is 66% het for labyrinth. Since there were only 4 greens total in that clutch you can't really look out the numbers to help you figure out what things are too much. The odds of getting greens were 3/16 per eggs while the odds of getting a green/labyrinth were 1/16 per egg. I had 28 eggs total.

As for the albino green's clutch I had 15 albino greens hatch out that were 50% het labyrinth. There were certainly ones with more spots and other with not as much, but it wasn't as clear cut as a green het for granite or anything. As you could see the albino greens with more spotting from the albino green clutch look pretty much just like the green with lots of spots from my green/lab clutch.

Here is what lead me to believe the burms with no pattern what so ever are green/labyrinths. I certainly was expecting lots of spotting too. Infact, that is what threw me off from the start. I cut the eggs early around day 51 and the colors were pretty light. I thought the ones with no pattern were greens that didn't have their spots showing, and figured the one with spots would just get more intensence as they were about to hatch. Shortly after everything shed and I really started to notice the ones with no spots. They had a much different color from the green with spots. I then started thinking I couldn't recall ever seeing a green with no dorsal pattern what so ever, and not a single spot on the side and I have two of them. Greens always have a stripe or spots going down their back from what I've seen. I have seen some green with no side spots although it isn't as common either. Then when my albino green clutch hatched and I saw some very similar to the green with spots and nothing similar to the one w/o spots I was pretty sure of what was going on. For what ever reason it looks like the green gene and the lab gene cancelled out each others patterns. There is no spotting or striping that green typically have, and obviously the lab pattern isn't present at all. Anyway, I'll leave it at that for now. There are some other things I could mention, but I don't want this to get that long.

Take care!
Ben

That spotless Green/Labyrinth is jaw-dropping. It's so click looking. I just love Green Burms, and that is just too cool.
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Cheers!
• Chelsea Lynn Gardiner
(and Frank M. Wood)

Sounds like you need to take the same advice you gave me and prove them out before you make any claims. That's what we are doing with our leopards. We didn't get any eggs out of our female leopard this year and our female albino green that was bred to our male leopard slugged out, so we will try again this season.

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Randy and Michelle
Art In Scales
(719) 439-4199
info@artinscales.com

Ben,
I must've been in a real hurry the other day 'cause I see that I didn't tell you how nice all of those turned out. I have to agree with "illbeyoursoldier", regardless of what's what or what's called what, they look sharp.

I still haven't had time to reflect much on it, maybe I will the next day or so and can post back. It is puzzling how those turned out to be truely patternless. Nature has these lil' curve balls every now & then, 'eh?

I'll catch ya later! Congrats!
Mike
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

Ben,Ben,Ben....

I don't what you have there but I will tell you it is like no other burm I have seen.Those two are freaking incredible.

I have seen alot of greens some with very little pattern and some with so much pattern if you did not know better you would say they were not a green at all.

Those two there are completly patternless.

If you think back Ben you and I talked before the eggs hatched out and I told you then I did not know how the hell the green/lab would turn out because one has a lack of pattern and the other has a chaotic pattern.I said then maybe it would cancel all the pattern out or have half pattern and half none.

I can't wait for you to breed one of those and prove what the hell you have there because green/lab or not I HAVE to get me one of those.That thing smokin'.
You better watch out though because I will not be the one calling to find out the price I will let Theresa do that because she is better at breakin' b@lls then me.lol congrats on the awesome babies Ben.Keep up the good work.

Hey Sam,

I sure will try to breed them out, but you just never know how long that could actually take. I've never heard of anyone proving out a green/granite female yet and they have been around since 03!

As it stands now there certainly seems like there is enough evidence to label them as green/labyrinths. What would the odds be of doing the first known het green/lab pairing and getting something completely new that has nothing to do with the parents being het for green/labyrinth? Very, very slim I'm sure. I know these aren't what most people would have expected a green/lab to look like, but clearly the most obvious explanation would be that is what they are. They came from het green/labyrinth parents, and are different looking from anything else. Just doesn't sound like much of a reach to me. I think the whole leopard debate has clouded things when there isn't any evidence to support leopards are green/labs and there is actually solid evidence out there that says other wise from someone that has been producing leopards from the start.

Like I said man congrats.

I am so looking forward to watching that thing grow up I mean it is just cool looking for sure.

Ben,
Since the leopard debate began before I even thought about venturing from "normals" into morphs, would you mind sharing with me what some of the thoughts on leopards are?

Are they believed to be labyrinth but not green? - OR - Believed to be green but not labyrinth?

Is there another morph gene suspected to be in the leopard mix?

I'm just curious. I haven't had time to dive into it, to research past discussions and just saw this as an opportunity to ask someone that has looked into it.

By the way, I know where you can get a lab to pair with one of your hatchlings. Hahaha!!!

Catch ya later!
Mike
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

Back in 04 someone was selling 2 or 3 baby burms on kingsnake that they were calling Leopard Burmese Pythons. I don't recall who it was, but I also don't remember them saying anything about them being homozygous green/labyrinths either. Someone named Jason Cloes actually bought a female from that person selling them, and claimed the guy told him that those leopards were homozygous green/labyrinths. Jason also said the guy told him they were the result of breeding two adult leopards together, and that greens, and labs were also produced. The problem which lead to a big debate at the time was if they were homozygous green/labs then all the babies should have been leopards and none should have been just greens or just labs. This time in 04 was the first time I've ever heard about the possibility of leopards being green/labyrinths. Before then it was thought by most other breeders at the time to be some random mutation that had something to do with het green burms. Other than the info Jason Cloes presented on the forums back then which was second hand at best, and clearly atleast a little off, I've never seen anything else to support leopards are homozygous green/labyirnths.

As for the information supporting leopards aren't homozygous green/labs you can just look at the results of my green/lab clutch which was from breeding two adults het for green and labyrinth. You can see greens and labs were both produced along with a with two that look like greens but have no spots. I had 28 eggs go full term, and the odds of getting a homozygous green lab was 1/16 in which case statistically I should have had 1 or 2. Then there is also information out there from Lynn Robertson who is one of the originators of the leopard type burms. Here is a quote from Lynn "I'm not sure if there is any final resolution about leopards but what I can tell you is that the ones I have been producing are few and far between. Out of a litter of 60 babies only between 5 to 8 would be real leopard like with the small spots about 25 would be reduced pattern and 15 to 20 would be green burms and a few would be normal looking." Here is also a pic of one of Lynn's leopards. You can compare it to Randy's pics about and decide for your self.

Here is the original ad.

This is one of the rarest Burmese Pythons in the country! You are looking at a 2004 female genetic green labyrinth. The original project was started by breeding a green to a labyrinth. This created double hets and when bred back to each other made a small amount of GENETIC GREEN LABYRINTHS!! It was purchased from a private breeder at the Daytona show in 2004. He sold two females and this is one of them!

She is currently eating f/t rats, is hand tame and in perfect health!

I removed the sellers name and the price so Kingsnake wouldn't think I was trying to sell an animal on the forum. If anyone would like that information, email me.

As you can see my girl came from a double het to double het breeding also.

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Randy and Michelle
Art In Scales
(719) 439-4199
info@artinscales.com

Hey Randy,

Could message me the info on the ad? I've really been wondering who posted that.

Have you looked into it anymore to find out who produced them and to find out if what is stated in the ad was true?

Thanks,
Ben

While it says in the ad the Leopards came from breeding two double het for green/labyrinths together, I wouldn't really consider that proof. It's a step in the right direction though. It would be nice if there were pics of the clutch hatching or at least verification from the person that did actually produce them. Without knowing it's hard to say if they really knew what they bred and produced or if the person might be a scammer trying to get more money for something by calling it genetic.

Also, just look at how information can get messed up as it's passed along. Jason Cloes bought a leopard from that ad, and he went on to say the guy told him the original breeder had bred two leopards together, and the resulting offspring was 25% leopards, and 75% greens and labyrinths which makes no sense for for when you pair het green/labs or homozygous green/labs. I'm sure that seller probably told Jason the same thing he had in th ad, but it certainly got pretty messed up.

Ben

Hey Randy,

Thanks for sending the info about the ad over. One more question though. Was this the ad that you bought her from, or was this the ad Jason Cloes bought her from originally?

Thanks,
Ben

Ben, all I was getting at when I said you needed to prove it out was that it's not what everyone expected. When albino greens, albino labs, albino granites and green granites were produced, no one questioned them because they looked like they were expected to look.

What you produced is not what anyone expected, not even you as you have stated. You said in the previous post that "I sure will try to breed them out, but you just never know how long that could actually take." I believe you said both of yours were females, if this is true, you could breed one to a male lab and the other to a male green to prove them out. We plan on trying to prove the lab side of ours this year, I'm not sure if I will try to breed my male to prove the green side this year as I have other plans for our albino green female.

Although I haven't said that I definitely have green labs since this debate got started, I still believe that it's possible we both have green labs. I still feel that the green lab combo will be very variable with some leaning to the lab side and some leaning to the green side. If yours is actually a green lab, then the green gene completely absorbed the lab gene. My pair might be somewhere in-between. You have stated that you think our pair are normal het greens. How many normal het greens have you seen that look like our pair? Every normal het green I've ever seen still looks normal. Ours don't have a normal pattern and have a green background color.

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Randy and Michelle
Art In Scales
(719) 439-4199
info@artinscales.com

I agree these were not what I was expecting at all. Other than the green/granites, green/labs would only be the second time anyone has combined two pattern mutations together in burmese pythons. It will be interesting to see what happens when a lab/granite is produced.

As for breeding my girls out I will certainly try to do that, but it will depend where we are at with this then as far as what I pair up. Right now I'm not really planning to breed them just to prove to everyone what they are. Yeah, they don't look like what we all expected, but I feel there is enough evidence to support what they are at this point. However, breeding to a lab and getting all labs het for green doesn't sound too bad. It's also been my goal for some time to combine all three pattern mutations so I may try to use these girls for that down the road.

Your last paragraph I don't really agreen with. Going off what I got and believe to be green/labyrinths, there is no pattern at all. There is not the normal dorsal spotting or striping greens have, and clearly not the labyrinths pattern. There is no spotting or pattern what so ever. It is like they cancelled each other out, and not that the green just absorbed the labyrinth pattern. It just happens to look similar to the greens because of that. If that's the case then I don't imagine there will be much variation as far as pattern. You can also see the coloring is a lot different from the green with spots from the same clutch as well. I know greens can vary a lot in coloring, but this looks like a big difference for full siblings.

As for your leopards do you think they are much different from the pic I just posted above? I know it's not the best angle, but to me it looks very very similar to yours and is from someone that has been producing leopard types for some time. I also don't believe most normals het for green are leopards. The het greens do tend to have a more block-like pattern over all, and when those block-like spots are reduced in size that is what makes the leopards IMO.