Reptile & Amphibian Forums

So there is no question in my mind how much we all love our animals. I mean if money, space, and time were not a factor I am sure I would have a collection that would match that of the biggest collection, but unfortunately that is not the case. So with my love of these animals, like the most of you, it is about research. With my research I am constantly finding out that in the natural habitat the animals we love are threatened in some way. For example Hogg Island Boas, Dumerils, Pythons, etc., but if you go to a show these animals are plentiful. (maybe not plentiful but there are some animals there) I am also sure that habitat loss is the main reason these animals are not as plentiful.

So my question to all of you is; can we help? I would hate to know that the animals we love have declined to the point that they only can be found in captivity. I know that this brings up other questions or bloodlines, the natural effect of these animals and the habitats that they live. But can some of the larger breeders come up with some thing so that they can donate a clutch to the wild where these animals live. Or has it gotten to the point where we just don’t care.

I do not consider myself a herpetologist, or a scientist or any kind. Maybe I am being ignorant with my thinking. But I also know that this is not all about money…at least it shouldn’t be. It is about the love and respect for the animals. Can we help can we make these animals survive the test of time so that they can live on. But maybe that will bring up the point that some naturalists will say that we are part of the problem for having the animals in the first place. Humans are greedy. We want things. But I also know that we can replenish what we take

MAYBE!.......MAYBE NOT?
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Scott
"Imagination is more important than knowledge" -Einstein

Scott,
One of the many issues of realeasing CB stofck is the possible spread of foreign pathogens to wild stock with no immunity, therefore doing more harm that good. Aslo, our captive breeding efforts are selective breeding efforys and our man selected, colorful stock may not survive in the wild anyway. Not to mention, how are we to know what we may realse is pure in the first place. After all, you don't want to release FL corns in NC as they have evolved to have many different dietary needs due to the availability of foods in particular regions. There's more but I think these issues suffice as to why we don't and should not do such. Farmed animals caught nearby and kept exceedingly pure may work as long as it is strictly with one species to inhibit the spread of an exotic disease into wild populations.

Yasser
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I know it is a long shot and i know that there are sevral factors involved....my whole point was to save the animals we love
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Scott
"Imagination is more important than knowledge" -Einstein

The late Tom Huff from Canada was a strong breeder of some of the rarer forms of Epicrates, and his motivation was to get a large number of juveniles started, then release them back into the wild. Unfortunately, he found that the "wild" was disappearing faster than he could breed animals. Depends on the area and what the local environment is still like.

They happened to mention on the weather channel today, in discussions of Hurricane Ike, that 80% of Haiti was now deforested. Where does the wildlife go in a situation like that? Madagascar has similar issues.
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1.1 Blackheaded pythons
2.3 Woma
4.2 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.1 Bloods
2.2 IJ Carpets
1.0 Coastal Carpets
1.3 Macklotts
1.2 F2 Carpondros
2.0 Jungle Carpet
0.1 Carpondro
1.1 Brazilian Rainbow boas
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

God this is going to sound like a tree huger quote...but it is about conservation. Or the animals will not be where they belong and only in our care.

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Scott
"Imagination is more important than knowledge" -Einstein

Personally, I'd rather have them in captivity than not have them at all. Habitat is disappearing and it isn't going to stop. The only thing you could do to "help" is to buy acreage in bulk, but it's a catch 22. You'd be preserving habitat, but it would still be broken habitat in which the opportunists or scavangers would thrive, and the specialists would die out. It would eventually balance itself out, but the diversity would be gone. The idea of "helping" has its merit, but unless some real effort is put forth to perserve whole eco-systems, it'll all fall by the wayside eventually.
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South Central Herpetological

Very true....Just hope it doesnt come to that...but i already know in some parts of the world it already has....at least we are preserving these animals.....KIND OF?
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Scott
"Imagination is more important than knowledge" -Einstein

Since most of the stuff isn't threatened due to hunting but habitat loss, you should breed your snakes, sell them for as much as you can, then donate the money to groups that buy habitat.

Or you can donate it to groups that educate women on family planning. Keeping human populations down keeps habitat complete.

Doug T

>>So there is no question in my mind how much we all love our animals. I mean if money, space, and time were not a factor I am sure I would have a collection that would match that of the biggest collection, but unfortunately that is not the case. So with my love of these animals, like the most of you, it is about research. With my research I am constantly finding out that in the natural habitat the animals we love are threatened in some way. For example Hogg Island Boas, Dumerils, Pythons, etc., but if you go to a show these animals are plentiful. (maybe not plentiful but there are some animals there) I am also sure that habitat loss is the main reason these animals are not as plentiful.
>>
>>So my question to all of you is; can we help? I would hate to know that the animals we love have declined to the point that they only can be found in captivity. I know that this brings up other questions or bloodlines, the natural effect of these animals and the habitats that they live. But can some of the larger breeders come up with some thing so that they can donate a clutch to the wild where these animals live. Or has it gotten to the point where we just don’t care.
>>
>>I do not consider myself a herpetologist, or a scientist or any kind. Maybe I am being ignorant with my thinking. But I also know that this is not all about money…at least it shouldn’t be. It is about the love and respect for the animals. Can we help can we make these animals survive the test of time so that they can live on. But maybe that will bring up the point that some naturalists will say that we are part of the problem for having the animals in the first place. Humans are greedy. We want things. But I also know that we can replenish what we take
>>
>>MAYBE!.......MAYBE NOT?
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>>Scott
>>"Imagination is more important than knowledge" -Einstein

or you can donate the money to teach men to keep it in thier pants.....

That method has proven extremely ineffective.

>>or you can donate the money to teach men to keep it in thier pants.....

One thing we can do is quit buying farmed or W/C animals from greedy importers, exporters,and large scale breeders. This of course does not pertain to all Herps. What concerns me most is the Ball Python market. Some of the largest breeders state that we should only buy CBB Balls to limit the toll of hundreds of thousands of Ball Pythons. Yet these same individuals are responsible for the massive importation of Balls because thousands of Balls have to be captured to acquire new high priced Morphs. The countries of Togo and Benin have been raped of the vast majority of Ball Pythons to feed the pet industry and the Morph breeders. I for one, will not purchase farmed or W/C Balls anymore. Wish others would do the same but greed usually wins out unfortunately.

Yes i dont buy any herp unless iknow it was cbb. Yes thank you for agreeing with the greedy part. I know that we arent the only reason for these animals disapearing from their countires but when we buy WC we are feeding the greed....weather it is money dirven or the want for that new animal
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Scott
"Imagination is more important than knowledge" -Einstein

What the others said about re-releasing CB stock is right on the money. I once had plans to start an Eastern Indigo head start program and after talking with several zookeepers and conservation vets (the latter of which I someday aspire to) I learned of a whole HOST of problems associated with this otherwise well-intended idea. But I won't get into all those here.

It's true that importing WC animals does contribute to the problem of disappearing wild species, but it's but a DROP of a problem compared to the TORRENT of wholesale habitat destruction that these species also face.

Here's the sad reality that biological history will corroborate: many of our favorite species are disappearing due primarily to habitat loss (some anthropogenic, some not), much of which is irreversible. The only HOPE for these species will be our (herpetologists' and hepetoculturalists') continued interest in them and our willingness to keep them ourselves.

...which is where the counterargument to the WC issue comes in. Look at the woma, or the savu python, or any of the many others. We have GREAT captive breeding programs with these species, and they will undoubtedly persist for a long time. But how long exactly? There's a big problem here that many fail to consider.

How many people will tell you their woma is either Hamper line or Tremper line? What about other lines? Are there only two lines in the wild? Do you see the problem? Without the occasional WC animal bringing fresh blood to the gene pool, we've created a system where over dozens of generations we're simply recycling the same genes -- this is called inbreeding and, over time, will prove detrimental (e.g. spider ball head wobble [read: neuropathy]) or lethal.

In our effort to "protect" species by discouraging or limiting imports/exports (or in the case of Australia, completely banning them), we actually stymie any future efforts to perpetuate healthy animals.

The best thing we can do is continue to breed our animals and keep VERY CAREFUL RECORDS about what lines we're breeding to. A lot of the morphs you see are not the result of wild caught lines; they are just as (if not more) frequently the result of several generations of inbreeding.

Catch and breed a wild snake from time to time! It's no different than any other predator removing it from the environment. The difference is that we have the power to give back!

Our greatest achievements in herpetoculture will not be the silly morphs we produce, nor will it be ill-reasoned "conservation" legislation destined to backfire a few decades down the road.

It will not be the number of understaffed and underfunded zoos who keep our disappearing species and try continuously and unsuccessfully to breed them amidst genetic bottlenecks.

It will be the private keepers and breeders -- you and me -- who carefully and diligently monitor our stock, who outbreed our lines at every opportunity, and who educate those who purchase animals from us to do the same. It will be our work and our endless persistence that will keep the world's most incredible reptile species around to be appreciated long after they disappear from the wild.

WELL PUT....not much to say after that.
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Scott
"Imagination is more important than knowledge" -Einstein

Sorry but there is a lot to be said about bwaffa's statements. I agree that habitat loss is the most serious concern for wildlife today. But when you add ridiculously high importation of certain species such as Ball Pythons you cause the problem to become even worse. The other sad part of all this is that a very high percentage of these Ball Pythons end up dying. A few for new Blood is fine, But people i know that import 10,000 or more at a time, and then sell them for 3-5 times what they paid is just getting a little bit greedy at the expense of the animals. Another point i would like to add is look at what has happened to the Tiger and the Rhino due to over exploitation of their body parts. Also, several villages in Indonesia have suffered greatly due to overcollecting of snakes for food, so-called medicinal value, and collector issues. Their rice crops have been devestated by Rats And Mice due to lack of predators. I have been breeding Herps for 28 years and refuse to purchase over exploited species even though i could make a great deal of money doing so.

Unfortunately there is no real answer to this. Maybe education will work but that takes time....alot of time. and we can ban impotation and exportation.....but we all know it will continue to do so...the pull of the all-mighty dollar is too strong. I belive this is a problem and i find myself torn. I see all of these animals that i would love to own and breed and take care of, but i also see and read that these animals are threatened in thier home countries and that the eco-systems are strating to collapse becasue of it.

I would love to belive that this community can do something....help in some way...and i am sure that we can...either by buying land....paying for education...etc. But will it help? I dont know. Most have you have proved to me you know so much more about this problem than i do. i am just starting out in this. I have been keep reptiles of some sort for 15 years or so, but just recently became involved in the community. So I am learning and reading what i can. My hope is that we dont or havent done too much damage to the world and animals that we love.
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Scott
"Imagination is more important than knowledge" -Einstein

The damage has been done to alot of species. Once that ball starts rolling, it doesn't stop. Just think, you may have the ability to witness the day when no wild Turtles or Tortoises are left in Asia. Sad, but slap you in the face true.
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South Central Herpetological

My statements on collecting wild-caught snakes were not meant to apply to commercial collection on a massive scale. Winston is right; collection on that level deals a powerful blow not only to the snake species involved, but to every level of that species' ecosystem.

Supporting wholesalers and breeders whose personal business practices perpetuate this kind of behavior contributes significantly to the problem and should be avoided. And be public about it! If you want to help, that's one of the best (and easiest!) things you can do. Tell these people why they've lost your business. Our industry is too small for even one voice not to make a difference.

Your ambitions are noble and are shared by many herpers. However as with most things in biology/ecology, its not a simple fix.

Some of the problems...

1) There is usually a REASON for a species decline. Unless you eliminate that underlying reason, releasing more animals will probably never be an effective conservation measure.

2) As mentioned disease control is a huge issue. Captive release programs must be under strict quarantine and veterinary supervision. This precludes most herp keepers from participating.

3) Captive animals frequently fail miserably when introduced to the wild. Not in all cases, but frequently.

There are things that you can do.

1) Never buy wild caught or "farm raised" animals.
2) Donate to conservation groups. There are many very well organized reptile specific organizations, as well as huge ones that buy land like the Nature Concervancy, etc.
3) Suport your local reptile populations. I find it funny that there are soooo many people that care about the pandas and the dumerils boas halfway across the world, yet they don't even realize that every single US state is home to threatened and imperiled herps!!! Make your property wildlife friendly. Remove invasive speices. Promote education about local wildlife. Reduce your ecological footprint.
4) If you breed native reptiles, keep your stock locality specific. And keep excellent records. This may never actually do anything... but maybe someday the situation will be different. In my mind, the fact that we have hogg island boas at all is better than having them go extinct. However it is tough to find pure hoggs with tracable lineages, most are hybrids.

Thats all I can think of at the moment but this is a great topic...

I'm glad you brought up this important issue...I love my snakes...but I love the ones I encounter in the wild more...It is a shame the number of snakes that get taken from the wild to benefit people who want them as a pet. I could never keep a snake that I found in the wild...and I don't think I would ever purchase a wild caught snake. As for releasing CBs into the wild...I've thought about doing a project like that for the Eastern Indigo Snakes here in Florida...but it is complicated when you consider the harm you could do...I don't really think there's anything we can do about what foreign countries are doing with their land...But I know when it comes voting day, I usually vote for the more environmentally friendly candidates...The people who will help put land aside for wild snakes here in the US. There's only so much we can do about the wild pythons in foreign countries...but here is the US we can have an effect on wild snakes...