Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Does anyone know what kinds of places I can find wild L.t.triangulum? Also, why is it that my friends can only find hatchlings? Is there any particular reason that baby eastern milks are so much smaller than hatchlings of tropical subspecies?

Does anyone know what kinds of places I can find wild L.t.triangulum?
Yes near old foundations or barns try looking under boards and tin that are in partial sun.Also fields along the treeline.

Also, why is it that my friends can only find hatchlings?
Maybe the time of year, the adults are underground, they have done what they had to do.Adults can still be found in sept.

Is there any particular reason that baby eastern milks are so much smaller than hatchlings of tropical subspecies?
Yes because the have amaller parents
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Doug L

I've found most of my E Milks in fields and open areas with debris (sheet metal, plywood, etc.) laying around. Mine were almost always found in areas where Garter, DeKay's and/or Ringneck Snakes were present. I've found more babies than adults - I'm not sure why that is, but maybe babies need to spend more time on the surface of the ground while adults can do most of their hunting underground in rodent tunnels (just a theory).

Tim

Third Eye

or maybe there are actually more babies than adults, since most will not survive to adulthood...

-Zach

In VT I've noticed that hatchlings and juveniles have been much more common in the past two years. I believe that for whatever reason Eastern Milks must have had good breeding conditions in each of those years and the year before. As a result there are simply far more young snakes here than there are adults compared to normal. This is true with most species though -- age distributions should always include more young than adults annually.

Also young individuals of any species are usually more likely than adults to disperse great distances before establishing a home range. Dispersal takes place above ground and young snakes are likely to take cover under whatever they can find while dispersing rather than search specifically for or make burrows.

Diet may also play into why you see more young than adults. Adults can more easily feed on fossorial rodents which make up a large part of their diet whereas young are more likely to eat terrestrial insects such as crickets. Snakes spend time where their food is.

While I agree with your overall assessment, I strongly doubt the intentional ingestion of insects by Lampropeltis triangulum. The species, as a whole, seems to be cued in on vertebrate prey, whether that be squamates, amphibians, or mammals. I'd suggest that the ovservation of invertebrate remains in the gut contents of milk snakes is due to the ingestion of insect-eating prey (lizards, Diadophis, shrews, etc.).

-Cole

this is from the poop of the small wc milk below

keeled scales maybe a baby garter to a ribbon snake Do ringnecks have keeled scales ?
This one didnt eat for me so i released it.
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Doug L

Doug,

Thanks for posting the pic! Ringnecks have smooth scales. It could be Thamnophis or a Storeria. Storeria have tiny babies, and I'd suspect it munched one of them. Fence lizards (Sceloporus) also have strongly keeled scales, but what you've pictured appears to be snake skin.

-Cole

In addition to what the others have mentioned, I have learned that weather conditions also are important when looking for easterns. I try to go out following rain events which soak the ground and have been a little successful using this approach.

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Joe

i dont think they are here any more! (central indiana)i have never been able to find any.

For finding milks, follow the suggestions given above. Avoid hot, dry times of year. In suitable habitat, triangulum often are one of the most numerous snakes, although they can be a challenge to find outside of optimal contidions.

As for why your friend is only finding neonates and juveniles...
Small snakes have different requirements for activity than adult animals. This is due to prey type, thermoregulation, moisture, and numerous other factors. Neonates are more likely to be seen in early spring than adults. Also, as mentioned above, more neonates are produced each year than survive to adulthood. Hatchlings are more likely to be seen in the fall (hatching season).

Regarding the size of NA triangulum compared to Latin American forms, you need to consider several factors. First, the size of the breeding adults comes into play. Latin American forms tend to be larger. Larger snakes can produce larger eggs. Second, the different populations have differing reproductive stragegies. Eastern milks, for example, tend to produce sizeable clutches of smaller eggs, while hondurans tend to produce smaller clutches (5-7 eggs or so) of larger eggs.

Hope this helps
-Cole

Does anyone know what kinds of places I can find wild L.t.triangulum?

They are truely everywhere(most any niche), you just have to put in alot of time in the field to get to understand when and where to expect to find them. It has to be noted that they are a fossorial species that spends most of its life underground.

Also, why is it that my friends can only find hatchlings?

Your friends find hatchlings where there is a concentration of good nesting habitat and where they are EASY. Each pr of milks produces say 10 babies so babies should be more plentiful. Its also much much much easier to find babies because they dont know all the cool places to hide yet, and thats why most dont make it to adults to begin with.

Is there any particular reason that baby eastern milks are so much smaller than hatchlings of tropical subspecies?

Size of parents has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with size of the hatchlings. Successful breeding adults produce babies that eat the available prey species. Its notable that in many areas milks replace kings and can grow to 4'. But with the smaller size of prey species its a better breeding strategy to produce MORE small babies(per same size adult female)than fewer big ones. Tropical species' breeding strategies has to do with their PREY SPECIES and predator avoidance not the size. That said, it is more common to see SOME smaller clutches with bigger babies in some large individuals but I suggest this the exception not the rule. One last thing to consider is that most wild caught easterns are just that, wild caught. Most tropical species you see at shows have been captive bred about 8-10 generations and manipulating (adding)food items, limiting parasitation,need for predator avoidance, and non-natural selection all will eventually affect genetic makeup and it could manifest into bigger babies. Sorry for the long post...
And JOE, SHHHHHHHH, dont make me come out there! LOL

Thanks for all the replies! Hopefully I will find a few this year or next.

"Size of the adults has ABSOLUTLY NOTHING to do with the size of the hatchlings."

Huh? Really?! Better re-think that one hombre! I know what you're saying, but it needs to be re-worded. Adults of a given size can only produce eggs within a certain range of sizes. This is what I was eluding to in my previous post. Reproductive stragegy is everything (well, so is resource allocation).

-Cole

Reproduction strategy aside, obviously you CAN get bigger eggs/babies from bigger females....but in my experience the size usually brings more eggs and the survivorship to double clutch over necessitating larger eggs/offspring. I can also make the arguement that egg incubation temps and timing can influence hatchling size:lower temps can extend incubation time which can increase egg/neonate size. Maybe what you are looking for me to say is that its not necesarily so rather than "absolutely no correlation"....but I would have assumed most would know that you wont get big eggs/hatchlings from small adults.