Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Welcome to kingsnake.com's message board system. Here you may share and discuss information with others about your favorite reptile and amphibian related topics such as care and feeding, caging requirements, permits and licenses, and more. Launched in 1997, the kingsnake.com message board system is one of the oldest and largest systems on the internet.

Click here for Dragon Serpents
Click for ZooMed
Click here to visit Classifieds

Laddersnake clutch DUW

devboy Sep 08, 2008 03:01 PM

After 4 out of the 11 perished, the remaining Laddersnake eggs finally started to see some movement after 57 days (6th September 2008) incubated at a temperature of 27C /- 1C.
Daylight

Flash

The first egg to pip and hatch was strangely Number 1 egg. This baby measured 29cm and weighed in at a hefty 36g, compared to a laid egg weight of 28g. I’m going to get some new batteries as I have had spurious weights recorded when they are running low. I’ll post corrections if this proves to be the case.


Next it was a race between eggs No. 6, 8 & 10 to hatch. Number 6 seemed to be the keenest.




Well number 8 won the race, weighing in at 41g and measuring at an even 30cm.


3, 5 & 9 are still waiting in the wings, while 10 and 6 are almost there.


Sleep got the better of me, so I can’t honestly say which finally got out the egg first, for the purposes of this post let’s introduce Schrödinger's Laddersnake neonate principle:-
So we have two neonate snakes that both hatched first and second on the 58th day, in their little race to be the first to escape their egg home, although unobserved, I can estimate which baby came from which egg due to the size of the hatchling and the weight of the egg/neonate. Perhaps if I had of observed this the result would be different? No matter (just theory :tunga, there’s a joke (such as it is) there for those so inclined.

From egg number 6 (I presume).


Egg number 6, measured 5cm x 3cm and weighed 29g when laid, the baby that surely came from it weighed 36g, measured28cm and was born on 7th September 2008. Egg number 10 measured 5.5cm x 3cm and weighed 31g, the presumed resultant neonate weighed39g and measured a comparatively lengthy 30cm, with seemingly quite a bit more girth to it too.
Next up in the race, was numbers 3 & 5. 5 started pipping before 3 but 3 was the first to emerge.





Number 5 still thinking about making a break for it...

Number 3 seems not to be sure of this big wide world, so is taking things very slowly and had even retreated back into the safety of its leathery sanctity.


Number 5 looks to have a deformed snout, from these few shots; it will be interesting to see if there are any other deformities. Very disappointing when this happens but it does happen, so warts and all, it gets reported here. I kept on hoping that it was somehow its jaw distorted from pushing against the egg, rather than a defect.


From the next few shots, it looks like my hopes are answered; the first shot shows its ‘face’ being pulled backwards.

The next two hopefully show a normal baby, although I couldn’t tell until Elvis left the building.


Close up view of egg number 3, hatchling number 5.

Now egg number 5, hatchling number 6.

It became apparent that my gut instinct was right, there wasn’t something right with this little one, it appears to have a kinked back and is having real trouble exiting the egg on its own. I’ve elected for now (8th September 2008, day 59) not to intervene.




Still eggs 3 & 9 aren’t giving up their little hissy shoelaces, I hope they are alright. I have a theory that my incubator must be very comfortable for them, as the trinkets took their sweet time in hatching too!




Finally, two healthy babies emerge on 8th September 2008, so the tally is; 6 healthy young, one deformed (yet to exit the egg).



First egg to hatch was egg no. 1, hatchling weighs 38g and measures 29cm.
Second to hatch was egg no. 8, hatchling weighs 41g and measures 30cm.
Third to hatch was egg no. 10, hatchling weighs 39g and measures 30cm.
Fourth to hatch was egg no. 6, hatchling weighs 36g and measures 28cm.
Fifth to hatch was egg no. 3, hatchling weighs 39g and measures 29cm.
Sixth to hatch was egg no. 5, hatchling weighs 41g and measures 32cm.
Seventh yet to exit, if it makes it, I do have my doubts. I won’t intervene for the next day or two. Depending on how badly deformed it is, I will likely have to euthanize the unlucky snake.

It was feeding time, so I thought I’d attempt to feed Momma scally, then I discovered this!

...to my knowledge it’s the first time a double clutch has been noted in scalaris? In fact other than some of the Asiatic snakes, I haven’t heard of a double clutch from any of the Old World ratsnakes, has anyone else? She must have laid them late last night or today, I had thought she looked a little large and it did cross my mind but I thought it unlikely that she’d be with eggs again. In the 16yrs I've known this snake, she has never done this before. It will be very interesting to see how many of these make it through the incubation process.
Ten eggs, none weighed, I can tell you that they are all smaller than the last clutch though. I probably won’t be attempting to weigh them either as there are over half stuck together.
-----
Devboy.

www.ratsnakefoundation.org

Replies (9)

rustduggler Sep 08, 2008 04:21 PM

Dave, I find it very interesting that the hatchling weighs more than Its egg at the time of laying. I just recently started keeping similar records on a few of my egg clutches. I use a slightly drier moisture content than most when incubating my eggs. My eggs usually start to dent/collapse slightly a week or two before hatching. My babies are usually one-three grams lighter than the egg at the time of laying. the empty egg shell usually weighs in at one-three grams. the sum of these two weights usually equals the exact weight of the egg at the time it was laid. I am puzzled when I contemplate how a hatchling can weigh more than the egg at the time of laying. I understand that an egg can gain weight by absorbing moisture, but even then I don't know how that could cause the baby to gain more weight than the original egg weight. In fact the studies I am familiar with show that the more moisture an egg absorbs from its medium, the smaller the hatchling will be. I'm not contradicting your data, like I said in the beginning of my post I find it very interesting. Have you had other similar results with other clutches or species? Has anyone else gathered similar data? All my data is from north american ratsnakes. Regards, Rusty

devboy Sep 09, 2008 02:26 AM

>>Dave, I find it very interesting that the hatchling weighs more than Its egg at the time of laying. I just recently started keeping similar records on a few of my egg clutches. I use a slightly drier moisture content than most when incubating my eggs. My eggs usually start to dent/collapse slightly a week or two before hatching. My babies are usually one-three grams lighter than the egg at the time of laying. the empty egg shell usually weighs in at one-three grams. the sum of these two weights usually equals the exact weight of the egg at the time it was laid.

Rusty,
This is a recent venture for me too, to measure and weigh eggs/hatchlings.

Dave, I am puzzled when I contemplate how a hatchling can weigh more than the egg at the time of laying. I understand that an egg can gain weight by absorbing moisture, but even then I don't know how that could cause the baby to gain more weight than the original egg weight. In fact the studies I am familiar with show that the more moisture an egg absorbs from its medium, the smaller the hatchling will be.

Rusty, all of which makes perfect sense, I had better check the batteries of my scales I think - the weights do seem pretty uniform if they are at fault but its certainly a possibility and I need to make sure that they are indeed accurate.

Dave, I'm not contradicting your data, like I said in the beginning of my post I find it very interesting. Have you had other similar results with other clutches or species? Has anyone else gathered similar data? All my data is from north american ratsnakes. Regards, Rusty

Rusty, no worries at all, great point raised, I'll buy new batteries sometime this week and reweigh the babies to compare weights. I have recorded one other species (C. helena see a fairly recent post on here) and they pretty much match up with what you'd expect, in the past I have had spurious measurements from these scales when the batteries are on their way out, although this is usually accompanied by them being unable to power the scales for anything but a brief moment too. Still, I think something is likely going on there as they do seem 'heavy' and I was surprised myself. Perhaps I have been putting too much faith in technology! LOL!

Many thanks for pointing out the obvious that I have been oblivious to!

-----
Devboy.

www.ratsnakefoundation.org

devboy Sep 09, 2008 12:04 PM

Ahhh, yes, you were so very right Rusty, many many thanks for pointing that out.

After changing the batteries of my digital scales, I’m getting totally different weights for the neonates, which throws into doubt the weight of the eggs at laying, as I don’t know how long the batteries were running low. I’ve changed the batteries twice and weighed three of the hatchlings again and thankfully, I’m getting the same measurements as the revised ones that follow;
Scal bab 1 – Egg (egg no.1) weight 28g(?), hatchling weight 19g, length 29cm.
Scal bab 2 – Egg (egg no.8) weight 31g(?), hatchling weight 23g, length 30cm.
Scal bab 3 – Egg (egg no.10) weight 31g(?), hatchling weight 19g, length 30cm.
Scal bab 4 – Egg (egg no.6) weight 29g(?), hatchling weight 22g, length 28cm.
Scal bab 5 – Egg (egg no.3) weight 30g(?), hatchling weight 22g, length 29cm.
Scal bab 6 – Egg (egg no.5) weight 32g(?), hatchling weight 24g, length 32cm.
-----
Devboy.

www.ratsnakefoundation.org

rustduggler Sep 09, 2008 08:04 PM

dev, i'm actually a bit dissapointed. the thought that a hatchling could weigh more than its eggs original weight was intriguing. thanks for the update. rusty

devboy Sep 10, 2008 02:10 AM

>>dev, i'm actually a bit dissapointed. the thought that a hatchling could weigh more than its eggs original weight was intriguing. thanks for the update. rusty

I really wish I'd spotted the error before weighing the eggs at laying, who knows they may have weighed a lot less than the hatchlings *he said trying to make Rusty feel better*.

LOL! Well, I'm not disappointed, the fact she double clutched I find amazing. Yes, its noted that many species can but I've never heard of this in scalaris or any of the 'European' ratties. Has anyone else? Input welcome guys and gals.
-----
Devboy.

www.ratsnakefoundation.org

devboy Sep 10, 2008 05:20 PM

>>Ahhh, yes, you were so very right Rusty, many many thanks for pointing that out.
>>
>>After changing the batteries of my digital scales, I’m getting totally different weights for the neonates, which throws into doubt the weight of the eggs at laying, as I don’t know how long the batteries were running low. I’ve changed the batteries twice and weighed three of the hatchlings again and thankfully, I’m getting the same measurements as the revised ones that follow;
>>Scal bab 1 – Egg (egg no.1) weight 28g(?), hatchling weight 19g, length 29cm.
>>Scal bab 2 – Egg (egg no.8) weight 31g(?), hatchling weight 23g, length 30cm.
>>Scal bab 3 – Egg (egg no.10) weight 31g(?), hatchling weight 19g, length 30cm.
>>Scal bab 4 – Egg (egg no.6) weight 29g(?), hatchling weight 22g, length 28cm.
>>Scal bab 5 – Egg (egg no.3) weight 30g(?), hatchling weight 22g, length 29cm.
>>Scal bab 6 – Egg (egg no.5) weight 32g(?), hatchling weight 24g, length 32cm.
>>-----
>>Devboy.
>>
>>www.ratsnakefoundation.org

Ok, it seems I’ve typed egg number 5, when it should have been number 9. So the last listing above should read:- Scal bab 6 – Egg (egg no.9) weight 32g(?), hatchling weight 24g, length 32cm.

WARNING, LOOK AWAY IF YOU DON’T LIKE GRUESOME SITES!
Number five is the deformed one, or was the deformed one. It died today before exiting the egg. I have removed the snake from the egg and took a picture to show just how deformed it was, no wonder it had trouble exiting the egg. Its body was bent approximately in half and these halves were joined together, there were some internal organs, plainly external. All of which couldn’t be seen until I cut the egg open.

A shot with the body manipulated to show a detail of the deformity.

-----
Devboy.

www.ratsnakefoundation.org

devboy Sep 19, 2008 03:06 PM

Here’s a quick update, dates are (DD/MM/YY).
Scal Bab 1 (egg No.1) born 06/09/08 – sloughed 17/09/08, 1 pink taken 17/09/08
Scal Bab 2 (egg No.8) born 06/09/08 – sloughed 17/09/08, 1 pink not taken 17/09/08
Scal Bab 3 (egg No.10) born 07/09/08 – sloughed 16/09/08, 1 pink taken 17/09/08
Scal Bab 4 (egg No.6) born 07/09/08 – sloughed 16/09/08, 1 pink taken 17/09/08
Scal Bab 5 (egg No.3) born 08/09/08 – sloughed 17/09/08, 1 pink not taken 17/09/08
Scal Bab 6 (egg No.9) born 08/09/08 – sloughed 17/09/08, 1 pink taken 17/09/08
This last neonate has a slight kink on its spine, nothing that hinders movement or apparently its appetite, if it’s possible to judge this from a single meal! Sorry no pictures of this or all the snakes in their new clothes but here are a few of Scal Bab 4 to be getting on with;
Natural daylight

Flash

“Gonna kill that foot”, a very brave snake indeed.

Portrait

Gonna hide behind this blade of grass, shhh... they’ll never know I’m here

-----
Devboy.

www.ratsnakefoundation.org

RandyWhittington Sep 09, 2008 08:36 AM

Very cool!!! I've always liked the ladder rats. They are definatly on my to breed one day list. I need another species of ratsnake like I need another hole in my head but that never stopped my before. lol
-----
Randy Whittington

devboy Sep 09, 2008 12:01 PM

>>Very cool!!! I've always liked the ladder rats. They are definatly on my to breed one day list. I need another species of ratsnake like I need another hole in my head but that never stopped my before. lol
>>-----
>>Randy Whittington
Randy, I'd always recommend Ladders for people to keep. They are hardy, feisty (well temperamental shall we say), and aren't glow in the dark coloured! LOL! I love my dull snakes me. If only the world was full of Ladders.
-----
Devboy.

www.ratsnakefoundation.org

Site Tools