Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Can you breed Red and Yellow ackies together? Also does inbreeding take a particular toll on this species?

in breeding is never a good idea with any species, moral issues aside. as per the other question, i hope someone can help you cuz i don't know jack about that.
-jake

When done carfully, and selectively.
There are plenty of examples where the careful and thoughtful breeding of related individuals has been used with great success to improve a given stock of animals, be they birds, cats, dogs, or reptiles. For instance, many of the current color morphs we see, would not have been but for the use of line-breeding and inbreeding techniques. The many varieties of dog breeds are a testament to line-breeding and in-breeding.

Such bottleneck breeding has creedence only so long as disease or the expression of physiologic errors does not become a problem. Often, such expression takes many generations.

In virtually any reptile species, it is possible for parent to cross with offspring, sibling to cross with sibling, even offspring to grandparent or greatgrandparent crosses may occur. However, should any "bad stuff" crop up as a consequence, i.e., depressed immune system, structural defects, or the like, they generally would be quickly culled in a natural setting.

In captivity, when it comes to such narrow crossing as inbreeding and linebreeding, there is usually a catch. More orange, sharper lines, extra spots. Often, this can lead to a lack of identification (on the breeder's part) of maladies that may go hand in hand with genetic constriction. Also, many of these errors can start quite unnoticeable and become far more problematic as the generations progress (which takes time, even in animals that mature in less than a year).

To cite dogs or even goldfish as examples of successful inbreeding and linebreeding, it must be recalled that, while many physical (or behavioral) characteristics have been instilled by bottlenecking measures, there is a reason why there are just as many primary publications on disease and physiologic imperfections and their diagnosis/treatments as there are care pamphlets for the same animals/breeds. Most domestic animals (i.e., species that have been subject to many generations of manipulative breeding, including inbreeding and linebreeding) suffer far higher rates of physical defects and disease.

As genepools are constrained on behalf of exasperating certain phenotypic traits (physical traits that you see with your eyes), genotypic (the gene code that your eyes can't see) weakness often goes unchecked. Thus, it's not just our close proximity to domestic animals that makes us notice and treat their ailments - there seems a gene-based necessity for it.

It's not just the sphinx cats and angelfish anymore. Leopard geckoes and cornsnakes of some strains show heavy ramifications from too little genetic variation. It is indeed interesting that there has been little, if any, coverage on genetic defects in some monitor species that have necessarily been bred from very restricted genepools, not because of persuing a certain color or pattern, but because FR didn't have many legal animals to start with (grin). It will be particularly interesting to watch how some of the Odatria species progress in years to come.

Its very true, that inbreeding will eventually cause genetic bottlenecking. The problem is, when, one generation or ten thousand years? You do not know, as well as you have no way of knowing. In due time, all species will bottleneck, inbreeding or not.

Your also very very wrong about reptiles not inbreeding in nature. Reptiles such as ackies(your example) vary in color and pattern, essentially every few miles. This indicates inbreeding. Other species that maintain a relatively constant pattern and color, indicate more out breeding is envolved.

As not all things are how I want them, not all things are how you want them either. This is the bottle half full or the bottle half empty senerio.

If we could actually do something about it, if it were true, that would be one thing. But in many cases we cannot. So what would be your suggestion, kill them off, to prevent them from bottlenecking????? You see, thats are only option.

When I bred kimberlys, people would say the same thing. They are all going to die from inbreeding. Well they haven't yet. In these many years many many people have experienced and enjoyed kimberlys, ackies, storrs, Pygmy Mulgas, etc. If I would have taken your advice about inbreeding, I would have been the only one to experience and enjoy them. Is that what you want?

In other words, your warnings may or may not have merit, but one thing is for certain, you offer no cures or alternatives and there lays the problem. What would you suggest? Thanks FR

Species don't necessarily bottleneck over time. Outbreeding and, of course, spontaneous mutations are responsible for curbing genetic bottlenecking. If all species bottlenecked over time, there would be an increasingly lower biodiversity rate as the future progressed.

I did not say reptiles do not inbreed in the wild, nor did I mean to imply it, if I did. That was apparently misunderstood. On the contrary, reptiles of most species are not quite so spatially liberal as, say, many mammals or, particularly, birds. Consequently, it does indeed become more and more obvious the closer one looks at local phenotypic trends that reptiles certainly do inbreed (hence the newfound importance of locality info for many snakes and as you put forth, acanthurus). If morphological similarity has truth, inbreeding is phenomanally apparent in some terrestrial turtle species.

My point at that was, in a natural setting, any negative kickbacks from the process of inbreeding will be quickly culled. In a sense, inbreeding should prove beneficial to a species at the local level for the immediate future since any weak ones will get weeded out (likely before they ever reproduce) and the strong ones will become more and more concentrated. In a sense, the process can serve as super-specialization for current environmental parameters (of course, the benefits achieved can go out the window when a major environmental change occurs). In captivity, however, people have a tendency to insulate the weak ones as they do the stronger ones. Many reptile breeders are unable to accept the fact that, even when insulated, many offspring are just not built to make it. Many people fight that fact, especially if colors, patterns or the like are involved.

It was because of the matter-of-fact take that the post I was responding to presented that I felt it important to point out that, if inbreeding is done even with discrimination, it's not always enough. We miss tiny things constantly and, more importantly, consistently. Interestingly, your setups seem to allow for a generous margin of error. I'm sure that you realize, as I can see (imagine?) based on pictures you have posted in the past, that your setups encourage a pseudo-natural competition-based success moreso than many other potential monitor breeders' setups...

I recall several years back when one academic (I forget who) was giving you grief about a lack of coreographed breeding and consequent recordkeeping, as though, that would be the trick to prevent all concieveable inbreeding backlashes.

On the contrary, in a group breeding setup, the most productive females and the most driven males will obviously be the most effective progenitors. That's rhetorical. So, in your setups, while inbreeding (on behalf of few original founders) is a primary rule, the driving force of genetic exchange and consequent recombination is actually conspecific competition, i.e., an arm of nature if you will. In such a setting, weak ones don't necessarily prosper, no matter how pretty they are.

The case I wanted to make was that ramifications can come of inbreeding. Period. No cures or alternatives, as you put it, can be offered. The post I responded to unfortunately made this fact seem avoidable. When it comes to your specimens of Odatria-type monitors, you know that most people wouldn't bother to suggest you're doing something wrong. I did not say you should change something, but rather that, as more and more generations go by, it will be interesting to see how they progress, be it positive or negative. Especially considering the influence of competition (which can be visually expressed or completely invisible to us, of course) on your animals, how will the genes bend in the future? I am glad that your monitors are doing well after many years already. Don't be so quick to assume someone is trying to give you directions.

Also, the post on the history of the gouldii complex hybrids was interesting. If you take spare time at some point in front of the computer it would be neat to see a photo montage of the offspring sequences that came of the crosses. I realize some photos have been posted in the past, but I know of no thread where they were blocked together chronologically.

There are always exceptions. Even within a "perfect system," the will be error. Theres always that degree of uncertanty.
There are plenty of examples of poor breeding and genetic faults that have been magnified through mans stupidity, but this is NOT the norm.

It is appearant that you are well read, so anymore talk, and Im just preaching to the chior.

Interesting posts, I might add.

cheers

Please understand, I am not pushing for conflict, but most of us with a least a little awarness know of the possibility of dangers from inbreeding. What we are lacking was the cure or alternative. Which is commonly avoided.

As you mentioned in a colony setting, at least the most fit of two or three males insures some competition. Also, picking breeders for traits other then color helps as well.

As you have seen here, I do not recoment crossing, but that may be the only method to insure genetic fitness in some species. Again as you have seen, if there is reason, we may have no other choice then to cross. Reasons are many and varied.

Back to inbreeding, this week like most all weeks, someone e-mails me and asks for baby red ackies, with their high school biology backing them, they request five unrelated neonates. I explain, all red ackies in the States are related. In most cases, they disappear. Of course you will find them here on KS, discussing the five nice red ackies they recently purchased that are unrelated, the ones they bought from so and so. And so and so, assured them they were unrelated. Or they buy two of, so and so's red ackies, and three of, him and hers, red ackies, so these are now unrelated.

What I am getting at here is, related and unrelated in the U.S. is more about whom you purchased them from and not the genetic makeup of the animal. With this in mind, I am not sure how effective or important your warnings are to the general public.

So my guess is, the future of these animals in the states, will not be based on genetics, but more on color, tameness, and how they fit in a glass tank or rubbermaid sweater box.

I am not sure if your aware, but several species of odatria have already disappeared from the states. Species that I produced many many offspring of. These simply were not pretty enough. It had nothing to do with genetics. Also there are few if any breeders of such things as ackies, these days. They are breed here and there on a small scale.(lack of control)

My belief is, these species will die off in captivity well before genetics as any bearing. The real problem is attention span, 99% of herp keepers have a five year or less attention span. The quicker they have success, the shorter the time is.

Please understand, zoos also fit nicely in this group.

So, genetics IS envolved, only its human genetics. Thanks, and I will post some pics of gouldi complex monitors in the future. I was out yesterday marvelling at them and their head structures. FR

That is a very amusing (and, seemingly largely valid) take on it. I make mention that I was angling more towards monitors and animals in general with regards to my remarks on inbreeding, since there was obviously never much of an option for avoiding inbreeding in the Australian species. Hopefully you're right; most people should know the basics that I managed to fill up two pages with.

I do wonder, which species did this country's hobby (your business?) lose due to lack of color? It always amazes me how much emphasis many hobbyists put on monitors' colors, with yellow and blue big for Indonesia, red for Australia, eh? Many chameleons, agamids and skinks are far more intense or of higher contrast. Perhaps the reason why I should have been more careful in phrasing monitor breeders (as opposed to people who happen to have bred their monitors) is because that lack of consistent success is attributable to the fact that so many fanciers of these animals put the emphasis on appearance instead of the family hallmark - behavior? Indeed, it's a regular trend on this forum. Human genetics it is.

I look forward to the gouldii photos, whenever you can get them up. Thanks for the interesting thread.

"because that lack of consistent success is attributable to the fact that so many fanciers of these animals put the emphasis on appearance instead of the family hallmark - behavior?"

We dont give a hoot if theyre rip, roarin, beasts. Heck they kill stuff, by golly. They do it good.

Actually, I got all heck in an iguana forum for being a monitor enthusiast. He went on to say somthing about how large carnivorous lizards are prime choices for males who are trying to "compensate" for lacking in "other departments."

Wonder what us girl varanaphiles are "compensating for" then???

*scratches head*

That's a pretty funny reaction from an iguana enthusiast. You might just confess to him that you're interest in varanids cannot be machismo compensation because you are of the meager sex (big grin). Then go on to say that you have a breath fetish and can only deal in lizards that can fully ventilate the lungs while running, as only this family can do so, efficiently (ahHA, how many of you machismo compensators knew that!?, heh).

To round it out, get him to tell you if the reason for the iguana's number one status in reptilian popularity for so many years was because people wanted expensive-to-feed, difficult-to-house and sometimes unruly animals or because they (numbering millions of people, mind you) wanted lizards that looked big and impressive. Once again, the compensation cycle proves to have gone full circle. Most people didn't pay bigger bucks for cute little green lizards - the end product is what they were after, even though most iguana owners never had their animals long enough to get such. Something big, impressive and exotic. If little and cute and green were the only prerequisites, green anoles would have had the number one spot prior to leopard geckoes and bearded dragons.

If it were me, I'd just laugh at it on the inside and let it go. It's a case of the F-450 driver telling the Hummer driver that he/she should not drive an environmentally-unfriendly gas guzzler, I suppose (pot calling the kettle black, but that analogy has nothing to do with big things that consume lots, so I stick with my brilliant choice). It thus goes back to the point made (FR) in the thread above, that human behavior plays a larger role in our interest in monitors than does the monitors' behavior. Just as with colors. I'll abandon the topic now before it becomes an amateur psychology post reiterating what this forum has seen a hundred times already (too late, I know).

North America came from the same pairs.
The first pair of red ackies here are the parents/grandparents, etc of every ackie in North America, and Europe, the same goes with yellows.
Every beardie in the pet industry outside of Australia came from the same pairs in German zoos. They are all inbred. I have an inbred female albig, Im sure every Aussie reptile you can find in Europe and North America in private collections are all related.

I dont know if I would go quite that far, BUT, the point is valid.
Smuggeled/ illegally imported critters dont get accounted for.

Yes it is possible, and its the reason why some red ackies/yellow ackies (or suppliers thereof) maintain a steady price, being that they are racially pure, so you get one or the other, not a tacky mutt. Im sure the orangey ackies make great pets. So do fake Bangka bloods, muddled carpet pythons, mystery locale GTP's, and lets not forget illegal imports passed as CB/ranched. Some people care acutely about what they buy, and some people acutely care to not disclose the whole truth and nothing but the truth. But hey, what would differentiate keepers if no one cut corners? Proof is in the pudding as well, as someone once said, you get what you paid for...(if you don't get a fast one pulled on you)

Actually there are many clear cup types of ackies, not just red and yellow. Also they should not be only considered races. Yellow ackies, Cloncurry or Mt. Isa, occur in central east australia. Red ackies, occur in central extreme west Australia.

While the understanding of these monitors is very primitive, they are distintly different and do not come close to eachother in range, habitat, and local. They also have some very pronounced differences. A simple one is, Reds eggs are clearly far larger then yellows. They also have far larger and different tail spines.

Also, types like what is called german reds, are a pure reddesh type that occurs in the Mt. Isa area. Not only does that area have many distinct types, there are many many types across the middle top of australia. Maybe someday, there will be an attempt to bring this group up to date.

Back to captivity. So yes, that person should not entertain the idea of crossing them. Unless they have a real hardcore reason for doing so. As many of us know the product of such a breeding, the offspring will not be as nice as either a pure red or a pure yellow. Which sort of defeats the purpose of doing that cross. People should not cross them for no reason, and having only one red and one yellow is not a good reason. Get another.

I am not entirely sure what you were getting at, other then it seemed a bit paranoid. Of course everyone should check up on whom they are purchasing a animal from, heck even a TV. There are good and bad of all things, Heck even things other then people. Cheers FR

Mention was made of not crossing unless there was a hardcore reason for it. Out of curiosity (and failure to find anything in the archives on this) I have to ask if there was any method or cause for gouldii/flavirufus/panoptes crosses.

These seem not to be any great rarity. When it comes to hobbyist breeding (I say that since that's all captive breeding with monitors in the states amounts to - there aren't any release/repatriation programs that I know of, to date) I have less of a problem than some with occasional crossing of species lines because besides obstructing the gene integrity of the animals' appearances, what harm does it do? Obviously, it changes the way the offspring look - size, colors, etc., but enough generations in captivity (i.e., isolation from environmentally-based evolution) will do exactly the same thing (how many species of wolves made chihuahuas vs. great danes?). I am curious.

The very first varanid cross occurred because of taxonomic error. The books I had called one animal a Sand monitor, V.flavirufus, and another individual I had, an eastern Sand monitor, V.f.sp.

After a few years in the field, I discovered that the eastern type to be, V.gouldi, and not V.flavirufus at all. So the first cross occurred.

The next was a Flavirufus to a V.p.horni. I simply had a single V.p.horni. She kept laying eggs without a male, and one day I simply grew tired of it. So I offered her a Flavi male. Then I continued to breed them, because the offspring were simply amazing in both color, size and behavior. So I breed them to this day. Consider, I only did the cross, one time. The rest were crosses back to crosses. Then later I bred gouldi into the mix of crosses. I guess if its already a cross, crossing it more will only be helpful. Outbreeding you know. Also, I never crossed a pure gouldi female or a female Flavi to another species. I only use males.

I also, bred a Pilbara rock monitor to a kimberly. That resulted in some nasty looking offspring, in both color and shape. It was the shape that made me not continue that line.

Let me add, not only is your reasoning part of my views, they do not occur here. I also see thru experience that crossing also occurrs thru a different type of ignorance. For instance, Once people understood how to breed monitors, that information was offerred to the general public, then the public crosses monitors for no reason other then to see what a brown one bred to a red one will do. In fact, most do not even know that Yellow ackies, V.a.brachyurus, is different then Red desert ackies, V.a.acanthurus. To most, they are a different color. Thanks for asking.

If I do another cross it will be V.caudolineatus, to V.gilleni. As I no longer have male Caudos, only females. I also cannot find anymore around. I indeed excessed many many of them. I wonder where they went. FR

Just wanted to say thanks for all the help! It was greatly appreciated! -Will