Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi,

My other half is infatuated with Yellow Ackies, he has wanted some for years and years. I have finally managed to raise the cash to purchase some (to add to our ever growing reptile collection), but I have a question. I have read in many places that if kept in groups from the date they hatch, over the first month they will deciphipher their sexes. In OTHER places I have read that this is not true.

Having never kept ANY kind of monitor lizard before I dont know what to go with. Eventually we would like to put a trio into our 7ft vivarium (we have smaller vivs while they grow!!), but I dont want to go out and spend lots of money on sexed adults when I believe that there is more to be gained from buying hatchlings.

I also dont want to buy a trio of hatchlings if the ratio could be higher in males, or all males. All females is fine by me, the issue is more that I dont want the risk of males tearing each other apart. My intention is not necessarily to breed (though everything else we keep seems keen), but to ensure that there is not likely to be any serious conflict in the group. Does this make sense? I know there is always a possibility of cage mates deciding they hate each other, but to minimise the risk would be preferable, I have found a breeder of great repute who is due hatchlings in October, and has said she will separate 3 from the hatch date so that they spend their first month (with her) together, is this going to raise the stakes on a having a happy trio, or is it just as risky as with any other type of lizard?

I know what the breeders opinion is but I am hoping that some others with plenty of experience may be willing to offer advice? I always try to do whats best by my herps so please forgive me for all the questions, I'd rather be safe(r) than sorry.

Does anyone have any advice?

Thanks
Kelly

I don't have tons of experience but I've listened to and read tons and tons from those that do. I also have a trio of ackies that are just over 3 months old.

It is widely said that ackies and I'm pretty sure monitors in general do best when raised as a hatchling group. I'm sure that some groups raised together have not worked out but I'm told that is usually due to keeper's errors. My three have had their wrestling matches. At times they looked brutal. But I left them alone and never stopped the fighting. They eventually stopped, I guess they figured out whatever it was they were doing. It was hard not to stop them but I felt confident that I had provided enough choices in their habitat to handle themselves and it worked. Despite the seemlingly vicious battles noone was wounded or scarred. I know that any of the experienced people will tell you it's not impossible to start with adult groups but that it is much much easier with a hatchling group. As far as males tearing each other up, I've been told that multiple males can work especially if raised together. Now I'm not an expert nor have tons of experience. So take what I say with a grain of salt until someone more experienced helps you. Also try doing some searches on the forums. I did that and it eliminated 90% of the questions I had. I think if more people did that the "experienced" ones would have more patience with us. Good luck,

Nate

Hey thanks Nate, I've tried searching the forums and have boggled my mind in the process, but really I do appreciate your opinion. I have looked all over the place and I have found so much conflicting information on the net in general I ended up here, I guess my main point of confusion is if I were to buy hatchlings and they turn out to have a high male ratio then what happens next.... I have read they can be fine but then again I have also read they can be worst enemies, which is why personal opinions from both experienced AND inexperienced folk is so valuable.

Thanks again,
Kelly

I really wouldn't worry about the male thing until it becomes an issue. If raised from hatchlings you're probably going to be fine. And if they aren't then you can always have a cage on standby which shouldn't be of concern especially since you don't plan on breeding. I just read something the other day that FR was talking about and that was that he's never sold 2 or more ackies and gotten anything but at least one animal of the opposite sex.

Some keyword searches you might want to try are- ackie behavior, dominance, fighting and subjects along those lines gave me lots of info. Try some searches on Varanus.net if you haven't already. And again goodluck.

Nate

Monitor lizards are predetermined sex while in the egg. The determinants are not fully understood. Anyone who tells you they "become" male/female by group raising is misinformed. It's 50:50 odds. They are difficult to sex as hatchlings. Males develop wider heads, thicker general appearance of head/neck, and little clusters of scales that stick out at the sides of the vent. It's pretty widely accepted that raising a group from hatchlings has better odds of getting breeding to occur in small Austr. monitor species. They apparently are more tolerant of each other as they reach "puberty".

I didn't say that they changed sex or anything to that effect, as I have no idea about that whole deal. What I did say is that FR had said he never sold a pair and had the same sex. I've also heard this from other sources. Is Sex a touchy subject for you?

Nate

I was responding to the original post, smartass. She alluded to the fact that "something happens" when group raised. This is an industry myth. If FR has never sold a pair reported as 2 males when adults, then he is good at sexing hatchling ackies. Buy from him. You should read the post carefully and then speak, kid.

Until all the evidence decides otherwise it's not a myth. You just seemed to jump all over the sex thing which has been hashed over time and time again. Her real issue was not sex determination but how to set up a socially compatible group of ackies. Which we all know has nothing to do with the sex of the animals. Maybe you should read the post before you respond, what you said was like putting a bandaid on a dying mans cut finger. Any why do you assume that because I disagree with you or that you have a problem with me that I must be a kid. How nice it is to hide behind the internet.

Nate

Because only a kid (teenager) would put an inflammatory remark on a comment w/o being provoked....."do you have a problem with sex?". I simply stated that it's a myth that they "become" male and female due to sociality or anything other than 50:50 odds. They have sex chromosomes, so it's determined when sperm meets egg. That is the accepted gold standard and anything beyond this needs to be proven to it, not vice versa. It wasn't rude or malicious to anyone. It's the truth. You're alluding to the fact that it's not true still. Peace.

here's the best the web has to offer for a quick reference:

"Abstract:

Two factors in reptile sex determination have been studied: (1) the presence or absence of heteromorphic sex chromosomes, and (2) the influence of temperature. Recognizable sex chromosomes are common in snakes and lizards, but are apparently rare in turtles and absent in crocodilians and the tuatara. Temperature-dependent sex determination (TSD) is common in turtles and has been reported in two lizards and alligators; however, data on TSD are available for few non-turtle species. Present findings on TSD suggest that (1) temperature actually determines sex rather than simply causing differential mortality, and (2) temperature controls sex determination in nature as well as in the laboratory. Only one study, however, has convincingly demonstrated the latter. Sex determination by nest temperature is proposed to interfere with the evolution of sex chromosomes and live-bearing (ovoviviparity); a negative correlation should thus be observed between TSD and sex chromosomes/live-bearing. Present evidence is consistent with these predictions. Possible selective advantages and disadvantages of the different sex-determined mechanisms are discussed, and an attempt is made to deduce their ancestries."

Sex Determination in Reptiles
J. J. Bull
Quarterly Review of Biology, Vol. 55, No. 1 (Mar., 1980), pp. 3-21

start reading things related to this vs. internet forums. search at a library under "reptiles/varanidae and sex determination" and see what you find.

I see where you're coming from with this. And I'm not just snatching any old info off from a forum. Socially determined sex is something that has been discussed by some of the top breeders of Ackies. These individuals probably have more experience and repeated results(science) than any guy with a lab coat. Also this information was discussed in a couple Vivarium issues. I'm not saying that it's a fact, and from what I understand neither are they. The only thing I was trying to bring up to you was that you were chewing at the bit to throw in how false and wrong socially determined sex was and how humorous it was that "sex" has become such a hot issue. I apologize if I offended you with the "sex" comment but your post about it SEEMED so hostile about the subject that I couldn't help it. Let's agree to disagree and move on.

Btw how are your ackies? I got my trio from Pete Weis early July. They are going to be 4 months old in 3 days. I've got 2 that are about 13 inches and one that is about 11 and 1/2 inches. They go through about 800-900 crickets a week. Down from 1100 the first two months. My wife wants some of FR's TopEnders so I think we'll have to start raising our own cricks.

Nate

Nate

I have a trio of Vaa from Proexotics. They turned 2 months and two weeks yesterday, i believe. The male measures 13"TL and 5.5"SVL and the females are 11.5" and 10.5" TL. They are doing great. I moved them into a larger enclosure this week and they are staying low for now and retunneling.

Do you notice your "male" has more vivid eyes and stays out much more often? Also are the vent spurs formed already on your male? i'm pretty confident i got what i asked for with a 1:2 ratio, but i base that on morphology and behavior.

i can agree to disagree, but i have to put my money on known biology and not on breeder/seller inferences. there are a lot of reptile fallacies out there, and until some real studies are done on this topic my money is on known science w/ other varanids. i'll load up some pics of my ackies to post. post some of yours also if you can. -jb

First day i got them:

the male at about 1 month:


The new cage as of yesterday:

What I think is my male does have the spurs as do the others but the one I believe to be male has much stiffer spurs. The other 2 when I feel the spurs they don't feel spikey. Also the other 2 have much more slender necks. But it's all speculation for now.

My guys are V.a.brachyurus. I'm hoping they'll hit at least 18-20 inch TL.

They have got to be the most outgoing lizards I've ever kept. When I do things in the stock tank all three are right there investigating and nosing my fingers and climbing up onto my arm. They are such fun. Do you find your reds as curious and fearless?

I'd post pics but I tried that in the past and it was a disaster. I can't get them off photo bucket and onto any forums.

Nate

.....that was an interesting read..... Thanks both for your responses, I contacted a breeder a few weeks ago who has separated a trio from the day they hatched, so hopefully whatever their genders they will grow up together and be tolerant of each other, though none are related, just incase they decide they want to breed.

Hopefully will be able to collect them in 2 to 3 weeks, very exciting, lol

Thanks again
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Kelly

There is a thin person inside of me trying to get out. I keep her quiet with chocolate

www.collaredlizards.co.uk

Are you getting your ackies in the States? If so they are all related. Just wanted to let you know that. It's the unfortunate result of not being able to bring in more ackies from Oz.

Good luck with the little buggers. They are a blast.

Nate

No no, I live in the UK, we had some come over from Holland after the Terrastika show in Hamm (Germany), but then there were plenty here already, so as far as I am aware they are not related, or at least not directly, ie brother and sister etc.
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Kelly

There is a thin person inside of me trying to get out. I keep her quiet with chocolate

www.collaredlizards.co.uk

Did all US red ackies begin with a single pair/group??? I'd not heard of the history as with beardies.