Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Welcome to kingsnake.com's message board system. Here you may share and discuss information with others about your favorite reptile and amphibian related topics such as care and feeding, caging requirements, permits and licenses, and more. Launched in 1997, the kingsnake.com message board system is one of the oldest and largest systems on the internet.

Click for 65% off Shipping with Reptiles 2 You
Click for ZooMed
Click here for Dragon Serpents

newbie Black thrroat

cherokee Nov 14, 2005 10:31 PM

I just got this little guy and I have a couple of questions about him.

first of all he was eating live pinkies and i tried to feed him frozen ones but he wont have it . so should I just keep feeding the live ones and how many and often should i feed him?

Second i think he might be shedding but im not sure (dehydration) his nose is dry and he keeps scratching at it?

third I am keeping the cage at about 90 on one end and 70 at the other and there is a heat rock in the middle , and the humidity is about 30%. what do I need to change?

the cage has a screen front and a blanket on top....Bad? what should i do

Should I be handling it a lot, my roomates and I have been hanging out with it but I dont know if I should leave it alone for a week or so?

How can i sex my Blackthroat?

he is salivating, blowing bubbles and yawning, is this bad?

well i think that about sums it up, thanks a lot

Replies (6)

Solidarity Nov 15, 2005 02:13 AM

OK, Some SERIOUS change is in order here. Thank you for being detailed in the post so we can see everything that is wrong.
There is alot of info here, but please just try to soak it in, you'll be a much more staisfied monitor owner.

1. You should be feeding him once a day at least, and how much depends on his size. I'm going to guess he is 12-16" long, so 1-3 pinkies. How are you thawing the frozen pinkies?

2. Heat Rock, get rid of it. Replace with driftwood/rock or a 'Retes Stack' (google it) and place under a halogen (probably 45 watt) lamp. You need the SURFACE temp of the basking spot to be around 130* F. You can get an inexpensive temp gun from tempgun.com to measure surface temperature. with a 45 watt halogen and driftwood or a retes stack, you'll probably need the halogen to hang about 7-8" above the basking spot

3. Hot end temps sound right but probably bring the cool end up to about 76*. Make sure you are keeping this temp gradient 24/7, otherwise your nightime temps with the heating lamps off will probably drop to ~67* which would be a good risk of a respiratory infection.

4. Humidity is WAY TOO LOW. If you keep the humidity this low your BT WILL DIE, later if not sooner. Dehydration can cause a lot of problem with monitors. Even if he survives it now, in the long run he'll probably have liver failure. You need to bump the humidity up to 55-70%

5. The screen front enclosure is why you're humidity is so low.
Try to move the little guy into at least a 50 gallon breeder tank for now, OR even better would be to build an enclosure for him, 4x3x2 would be sufficient for now. Stay away from ANY screen top or sides.

6. Salivating, bubble blowing. You guessed right, BAD.
Tell tale signs of a respiratory infection. I would definitely take him to the vet ASAP to make sure, and get rid of that infection. Once you change up his enclosure to meet his needs it should help him recover as well.

Some other things to note, you should be using plain old dirt/topsoil as a substrate. Preferably at least the Snout-to-Vent length of the monitor for now, so anywhere from 5-7".
Try to find something that holds moisture well, so that you can keep that humidity up. It seems a couple people are using a nonorganic topsoil from Lowes and it seems to work good.
You can also feed him crickets until he loses interest in them. They are generally a little cheaper for about 40 crickets than a couple pinkies.
Upping the humidity will keep your little guy from becomign dehydrated, and also help with sheds. Stuck sheds are a result of low humidity and the effects range from lost toes or tail tips, all the way to death in extreme circumstances.

Thank you so much for posting and asking these questions, I know this seems like alot to do/change, but you've already taken the first responsible step. Give him everything he needs, and he'll be a very rewarding animal to keep.

Good luck and keep us updated! Email me if you'd like to know of a couple other net spots for monitors that are a little more active..

cherokee Nov 15, 2005 03:28 PM

I was wondoring how to put some pix of my cage ,and little dude on here to see if there is anything i can do make it better but i dont know how to put pix on this message.

I think i am going to get a fogger for him but i dont know if this is the right thing to do.

Solidarity Nov 15, 2005 04:58 PM

No need for a fogger. The correct enclosure (ie. not screen top or sided), with dirt as a substrate should hold the moisture well.

AlbigCrazy Nov 15, 2005 06:58 PM

Hey if im right i think you BOTH are newbes. lol a newbe helpin a newbe, no good some times. Anyways sol you have did an pretty good job for helpin him, on the basking spot albigs like it alot hotter than 130 try 140-150 for young albigs.

If you didnt know Albigs besides the smaller locatlys on avg 6-7 feet in lenth.

Sol is right NO screen top or bottom not any wherre. You can have your cool side 65-72 is best. Hot side 88-95 make it range not only 2 temps. Also on humidty make it range From very low 20% or less to all they way up to 100% in a burrow.

Feeding wise what are you feeding it? choped mice,crix,and worms are the best you can offer mice bein the best.

I cant renmber what else you asked lol. oh yeah bubbles and stuff=VERY BAD!!!!! You NEED to get him to an REPTILE VET and get him checked out ASAP.

Good luck and ask all the ?'s you need to ask.

Chad

Solidarity Nov 16, 2005 12:07 AM

Thanks for the reply Chad.

Keeping monitors is a trial-and-error hobby, but luckily enough mistakes have been made and learned from by others that we can halfway stumble through providing for these great animals.

As far as basking temp goes, I say 130* because that's what my BT seems to go for. Much hotter and he doesn't use the basking spot... (and obviously doesn't do him any good if it's cooler) so that is from my own experience.

If I was just guessing on the stuff, I wouldn't have been saying any of it. You're right, newbs helping newbs usually doesn't turn out too pretty, but then again, you've never seen me posting asking the most basic/widely known questions or saying "I just bought a xxxxx, what now?!"
I had my enclosure set up a week before my monitor even arrived, and have changed several things since to try to find the best combination. I did all my research up front.
I do understand you weren't trying to be rude.
I've seen people call out guys like FR and say they are wrong.
Sometimes it seems like someone who is a newb could just copy and paste something from a very experienced keeper and be accused of not knowing the "facts". They may not have learned it from their own years of experience, but that doesn't make it less true than when an experienced person says it. That's what a COMMUNITY is for, to share information and learn from one another's mistakes.

SHvar Nov 16, 2005 01:33 AM

VARANUS ALBIGULARIS, by Shawn Henderson (avid varanifile and monitor hobbyist)

Varanus (latin-monitor lizard), Albi=white, gularis=throat. The whitethroated monitor is a complex of subspecies, V.a.Albigularis, V.a.Microstictus (true blackthroat), v.a.Angolensis (Angolan whitethroat), V.a.Ionidesi (blackthroat found in the pet industry commonly, named for the famous snakeman ionides). They range as a species from one local area to the next by a few miles in color, pattern, and size as an adult. They are a large species of monitor that at any size is one of the most powerful species, and very imposing captives, they have the best or worst tail whip of any monitor (depends if you are on the recieving end), very very powerful jaws especially adapted to crush giant land snails, turtles, and tortoise. They are semi arboreal yet spend half of their time underground in burrows, or searching the ground for prey. They are well known by African bird watchers as the most prevalent predator on nesting birds, and song birds, they will in fact set an ambush next to a nest of eggs or chicks to await the return of the parents, eat both parents then the eggs or chicks. They are also known for living in large rock piles hence the name "rock or tree leguaan. They are greatly adapted diggers and can burrow like a highly skilled team of miners in hard packed dirt. They are found as far north as southern Egypt and south to the tip of the cape, they range from white to yellowish, to reddish, brown, black, with banded, spotted, or almost solid patterns. They vary from 4ft to over 7ft depending of location in relation to the equator and availability of food, lack of predators. They range from 7lbs to over 35lbs in weight, and can very destuctive, as well tear poorly designed cages apart and furniture. They posess a set of sharp teeth in the front as well the majority of their middle and back teeth like other African monitors molarize with age or wear rounded. They have a horribly powerful bite with the ability to crack or crush bone, they have a habit of hanging on without releasing, regardless of attempts to remove them. They are a common predator of snakes, especially venomous cobras and vipers (which they act a bit less confident in approach). They are also known to eat other species of monitor from young niles to the bosc or savannah monitors which is Africas smallest species (when they are found in the same areas). They are known to live in a semi-arid to arid grassland, woodland environments (hence the term savannah monitor, not to be confused with the American pet trade savannah monitor, V exanthematicus).
They are rewarding captives if given alot of room, deep digable dirt substate in which to tunnel and burrow under, their natural habitat has a high iron content soil with little to no organic material (leaves, tree bark, vegetation, these type subtrates hold too much water and spoil or get moldy). They do best on a rodent based diet from birth through adulthood with additions of crickets, roaches, superworms, chicken peeps, quail, and occaisional amounts of meat (ground turkey is common as the San Diego Zoo turkey diet, a mixture of steamed bonemeal, turkey and a crushed Centrum one a day vitamin), and some other foods, all insects should be supplemented with a good quality calcium supplement such as Miner-all or herpti-cal with Vit D3 (actually a sterol not a vitamin).
They enjoy a very high basking temperature (surface temp) of 130-170f plus degrees. The basking spot should be made from plywood as it holds a consistant temp, is inexpensive, not too heavy to hurt your animal if it falls on it, and is very sturdy (untreated wood, thats without arsenic which leaches into the soil etc). Ambient or air temperatures should range from 86f-90f on the warm end by the basking spot, with a cool end that drops to ambient temperatures of around 72f. Underground the air temperatures can be even lower because these animals need to use all of these temperatures, this is what is known as a temperature gradient. These animals should be kept in multiple cages from 4x2x2ft to 10x4x5ft or much larger as they grow (which if cared for properly happens very very fast, anywhere from 4-5 ft in their first year is possible), cages should be waterproof inside to resist moisture from damp substrate, and tough surfaces to resist powerful monitors claws.
They require a fresh source of water to drink as they need it (if kept properly they rarely ever drink, and rarely ever soak), and if they want to,adding a soaking water source at their disposal. Usually screen top cages cause a big problem with dehydration which shows as the want to soak alot, it also manifests itself by showing up down the road in the form of lack of appetite, frequent drinking, crystalization of uric acid in the kidneys almost no matter how much soaking occurs and eventually death by kidney failure, usually explained by vets to greiving owners as mysterious kidney failure (occurs in so many captive monitors kept in open top cages and no proper substrate). Also among health problems there are 2 other common occurances in captivity, one is liver failure which is caused by long term low basking temps, the lack of ability to properly digest food/use available energy from food by storing massive amounts of fat then mobilizing it suddenly during a fast causing the liver to be soaked and overcome by "fatty liver disorder" or hepatic lipidosis. This was formerly blamed on feeding a rodent diet high in protien, but found to be a serious husbandry problem in all reptiles not diet. The other problem is impacted digestive systems, the happens when again too low of temps and dehydration are mixed with a seriously obese animal in many cases that cannot properly digest or pass food or objects such as rocks, wood, substrate etc through their digestive system, it is a serious husbandry issue and a sign that changes were needed a long time ago. You should find a good experienced herp vet through Herpvets.com or ARAV websites as well ask around the reptile community and ask each vet many detailed informed questions before choosing one. Basking spots can be made into "Retes Stacks", or pyramid shaped unattached stacks with a tight space for your monitor to squeeze into allowing it to thermoregulate in multiple temperature zones while feeling secure.
These animals can cause severe damage when biting or scratching and bites should not be bragged about and if possible avoid reporting them to even medical authorities as animal bite info is collected every year and used by politcal groups against our hobby in local and state laws. Not to say you shouldnt seek medical help but to not bring bad legislation to our wonderful hobby, bites happen so its best to report it to be safe as all pet hobbyists know if it has teeth it can bite.
Note: although if kept properly they can be rewarding captives 99% are wild caught and can carry high loads of internal parasites as well ticks and mites from being kept in improper conditions, true captive bred and born specimens are very rare and expensive but are the best choice for captives as they have never experienced freedom in the wild therefore dont miss it as well imports are many times very badly abused. They can take time to learn to trust their caretakers in captivity as all animals have individual personalities. These lizards can be bred in captivity sucessfully if offered the right resources, they are also very territorial and are known to be cannibalistic if not offered choices and resources. They are also born with the knowledge and weapons to kill one another very very quickly as adults, therefore pairs should be identified by sex at small sizes such as above hatchlings and raised together to teach them to communicate and speak the same language, pairs should also be offered very very large enclosures to facilitate their need to escape one another at times. These lizards are also known to be avid lizard specialists as all monitors are at eating hatchlings, and smaller neighbors, as well eggs of any species available.
Eggs should be incubated artificially at temperatures around 83-86f in perlite as it is a more consistent and an easy medium to use. It takes about 6 months to incubate anywhere from 20-52 eggs from V. albigularis in a clutch, the eggs are around 2.25 inches in length, and they hatch at about 9 inches long. As hatchlings they should be fed daily the diet mentioned earlier in this species plate/caresheet, they are known to be bottomless pits when it comes to feeding and can put away huge amounts that seem to disappear with ease. These animals can sucessfully reproduce at the age of 6 months old if kept somewhat close to correctly as demonstrated by many hobbyists in the past.
Basking lights can be made sucessfully from standard outdoor halogen flood lightbulbs bought from any local hardware store as they have no need for overpriced UV bulbs sold by reptile suppliers as they get all required nutrients from a proper diet, the wattage of those floodlight bulbs varies with needs and cages ( the author uses all 45 watt halogen outdoor flood bulbs arranged in multilight assemblies to properly heat the entire snout to vent size of the animal). There is no danger from monitors climbing on hot light bulbs if offered the correct temperature gradient and the ability to properly heat up without lying on the bulbs, as well thermal burns happen when a basking "hot-spot" is too small and the animal spends too much time basking under it in cool conditions.




Site Tools