Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I've come to believe that the general opinion is that keeping BTs fairly dry is good for them, and one person told me that bathing per se is bad for BTs. Now I've read meany articles describing BT habitats with water features. Are they all wrong? I know that misinformation is rampant in reptile care.

Roger

I want to make damn sure I get this one right. Sorry that it goes over some same ground. I need reassurance. I started out believeing that BT's are dryland animals. Again, I really want to get this right.

Roger

Eastern African varanids are submitted to a monsoon season, many albigularis from Mozambique and Tanzania (black-throat) live in flooded terrains, in these times they leave borrows to shelter in trees, they also feed a lot on frogs and snails in this season, of course they can swim and no they aren’t allergic to water, water is life for all beings.

That’s not the point, what you are missing is context, when you take a monitor and thro him in water he panics, fast floods also means death (as in drowning) this is why your lizard inflates like a balloon when you dump him in water, of course he might get use to this abusive treatment, but not without enduring lots of stress. These monitors do not take to water if they are well kept, nil’s and water will spend a considerable amount of time in water, they are water loving species, albigularis are not!

Why do you feel the need to bath your monitor?

I read about it during my research before I got my guy. I mentioned one respectred group who does that with their BT's weekly.

I've had consideable experiece with the more aggressive Black Iguanas (ctenosaurus spp.), which need bathing, and am used to reading a lizard's reaction to tubs. None like the tub at first. I think the unicolor makes them think they are in the Twilight Zone.

When I draw water for the bath, I clean the tub with soap and water (after it was sanitized with bleach after the last lizard's soaking). I fill the deep end with enoough water to come up to the shoulders, and the shallow end has almost no water. The water is 90F. I've been eaving him alone in there for 20 minutes per week. I'm very careful to put him down rear first, so he doesn't get a snout full of water.

If this turns out to be bad practice I will drop it like a hot potato.

Roger

What exactly did you research? The company that has a wonderful website? they are great, I really like them, but, what did they actually do??????? produce part of one clutch with the subject? or that fella in Fla.? he produced a few more. Or that fella in Texas, he had several really strong clutches. But his females did not produce over a couple of years.

My point is, what the heck is research? is reading websites research, heck no, they are only websites. Research is going and making sure what they say or write on those websites is valid. In other words, do they have reason for saying what they say.

Then making sure whats written is in context with YOUR GOALS.

The crutch of the problem is, there is no standard for levels of success. To some people, success is living until the next day, then a week, a month, a year. To others, seeing them copulate is success, others need to hatch a baby, one baby, then it dies, they still call that success. Of course theres others that need more then that to call themselves successful. Then of course their is me. I call successful when a individual fullfills life events, anything short of that is failure(for me)

Of course, life events have catagories, and each catagorie has its over levels of success. Like growth, monitors can grow and mature in 4 to 6 months or take many years. The first is more successful then the latter, but all are successful. For instance, growing quickly and efficiently is based on genetic potential. Its approaching the upper limit of potential. Growing slowly is approaching the lower limits of potential.

This goes for clutch size, clutch viability, clutch number, etc

This also goes for longevity, how long can an individual continue to achieve natural progressive events. To me, longevity is not valid unless it includes events natural to the animal. To live a long life in a small box and never grow up, IS NOT SUCCESSFUL. Its more like torture. Which unfortunately is what most longevity records are based on. Not all, by the way.

So, reading the site of a well respected company, and I agree, I do respect them. Is not research, its simply reading. Research is asking the important questions, you know, like a reporter is suppose to ask, Where, when, how, what, who, etc, etc.

Did you even go and see for yourself?

So please, you failed to research. And that is why you believe what you believe. Cheers

Do you understand how to learn. You have heard different sides. Now you must test them. Put a dang water feature in your monitors cage. Then you will learn.

It will not kill it unless your head is so thick you cannot tell anything about your monitor. In which case, you should not have it.

So instead of bothering folks with your odd stuff, you can post and show us how its going. You know, then both you and I can learn. You see, I love learning from others mistakes. Cheers

I agre about the dang water feature, but I have to say, you are a strange guy. But you have said, and I appreciate it, that your opinion is that BT's should get no weekly baths. I'm pretty sure he won't be bathing anymore. His only humidity will be from the soil in the dens he digs. It'l be interesting to see how often he comes out to bask.

Roger

Theres tons of folks(i guess normal) floundering around like fish out of water,(they're normal?) and I have almost no problems and my monitors are highly successful(and I am the strange one?) I would have no problems, but it appears you guys are a problem. You somehow think your my responsibility.

Of course I am the strange one, I am not on the same page as you or the others that are trying to figure out step one, page one, in a series of a hundred steps in a large book. Your sitting around working on the first page of a book, and I not only read the whole book, but wrote it as well. Of course I am strange to you. You should have figured that out a long time ago.

You know Roger, you would be far better off, and so would we, if you just made your own decisions with your BT. It most likely will end in disaster, but so what, likely that will happen anyway. Just do what you want to do, and share and report the results.

You do understand, this would be a far better place is people shared their experiences and results, instead of sucking the blood of others then attacking them for their own inability to achieve success.

You should understand, some folks can take instruction well, others cannot. You appear to be the latter. There is nothing wrong with that. You will learn the long hard way, at the expense of your monitor/s. Some folks are like that. Its normal.

It is very sad, that the one that the one considered successful is also considered the odd one. In that, I would blame yourselves, not me. In this case, I am very glad to be the odd one. If me being odd is cause for my success, I will gladly take it and run off smiling and laughing and having a ball. Cheers

you talk about it being a better place if people shared experiences and results? i know you've bred flavi monitors, and yet no advice, information about experiences, nor results shared on my post...

maybe you should practice what you preach, my hypothesis is that you're only here to "flame" others on a digital forum to inflate you own ego, rather than help others and share your own experiences and information. and the conclusion is, thus far, the same.

good day to you, sir.
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Shane

FR constantly gives advice, tips, suggestions on monitor husbandry, pretty much everyday. All of it is based on real success. Not what he has read or heard about, but real success with real monitors…of which he has had as much if not more than anyone in the world. Has that sunk in? Read it again if you have problems.

I have noted no agenda other than better captive conditions / husbandry for monitors. Have you? Is that clear?

He does this for free. He spends his own personal time plinking away on a dang pc to give us the hard earned information he has collected over decades regarding monitor (reptile) husbandry. Anyone confused on this?

Does he put it nicely? Actually yes, I think he does. Some of you fragile ego types might be offended? He’s nicer than I would be anyway. All the answers are there too. EVEN when he doesn’t answer the question directly, that tells you something. Understand? Read it again if you dont.

He’s been doing the reptile thing for nearly 40 years? That’s probably twice as long as most of you have been alive. Personally I am honored the guy bothers to come here and let me know his experiences and what has worked for him and what hasnt. How lucky for us. NO WAIT how lucky for the monitors. That’s what this is about right?

Honestly it is embarrassing to see the personal unwarranted attacks I see coming his way. I don’t know maybe I am old fashioned but I was taught to have a little reverence for those with more experience in life, especially in what I want to know and personally care about.

Without Frank what would we be left with? I will tell you what…with the exception of a handful of folks with some limited success…we’d be left with bozo after bozo giving poor advice based on what they read or tried once or twice (including me). Sometimes I end up on some other ‘husbandry’ forums and the garbage that passes off as expert advice is pathetic and downright unhealthy for the monitors. You know how I know that? Guess.

Anyway Frank, just so you know…my monitors are MUCH BETTER OFF from all the effort you put forth here and elsewhere. Hopefully that makes all the bs worth it. I have a feeling it does.

Tom

To bad, I love Flavis.

We just hatched two clutches(posted on another site) and just recieved two more clutches.

But I wonder why I should share with a person who gives attitude from day 0ne, no wonder monitors crap on you.

You do understand, I have "shared" more then anyone. What I get for doing that is mostly poor attitudes like yours.

Besides, like the others who think they got it going on, all sharing would do to you is upset you. And you will call me names, whoops to late.

Because if you have a 30in flavi female and have not recieved eggs, your doing something wrong. Also if you think there is some special method, your way off base. As far a I can tell, all varanids reproduce at a drop of a hat, well as long as they are healthy enough to reproduce.this thought is very important and you need to think about, your flavi and you, not think about it and me

I say that because I do not hibernate them, or photoperiod or raincycle them in anyway. In fact, I raise most my babies in a raise up rack of ten gallon tanks/ 25watt incandensent bulb/ no deep substrate, etc, you know, a normal old tank, and they often lay eggs before I can get them out of there. Heck if you check the archives, I have repeated basic conditions, ten thousand times, the temp ranges etc. In fact, those are optimum ranges. I often fail to supply that and monitors STILL lay eggs(I actually had to learn how to stop that)

And yes, after all these years I am getting tired of this type of stuff. Like your post, no offense but over the years I have said the same exact things MILLIONS of times, as in, really millions of times. I have said them in millions of different ways, from being supportive to combative. In mags, quoted in books and on this and other sites. Guess what, folks appear to not want to know, they seem to just want to make useless talk. Do some research, its all here!

What you "may" be missing is this, you ask about a species, as if species require a different approaches. That is where your missing the boat, what allows one species to successfully reproduce, allows all species to successfully reproduce. Once you get that thought, you will not ask questions like you did, you may incure problems that require some slight adjustments. For instance, you would ask, My monitor keeps laying eggs all over he place but they do not or rarely hatch, is there a way to improve that? Then I could be of some tiny bit of help, offering tiny hints or a direction to approach. Notice I said "direction" as there is no one single thing or group of things. Its a living animal, its unique and as such, you have to read it. The hints I give will be based on what YOUR monitor in question does. (not not do)

But all in all, if a female monitor does not lay eggs, something is seriously wrong with it. Sir that is without question the truth. I know if one of my females does not lay eggs, I look at what I did to screw it up. As that is without question what happened, I must have screwed it up, as they lay eggs normally.

Yes, there are a lot of screwed up monitors out there, and I cannot fantom how they all get so screwed up.

I have no idea what you did, how you did it, etc. So what am I to offer. Lets see, you go to a doctor and ask, my wife is 30 years old and has not had babies, whats wrong with her? Dude, the doc is going to have to take some tests or say, try having sex. Did your monitor have sex?(glad I got that out of the way)

So no, there is nothing I could say without knowing the basics, like, when, where, how, what, who, etc and I do mean etc(much more)If I had the animal in my hands, I could palpate it and maybe feel hardened ova, that would cause it to not lay eggs. Shy of that, I cannot help you from what you said on your post, THERE IS NO PERTAINENT INFORMATION TO ALLOW HELP.

So again, no, you don't need to do anything special, a healthy female automatically lays eggs. If its 30 inches and a female it should have laid already(mine normally start to lay at 18 inches, some a little smaller, some a little bigger) As yours is way past that, something is wrong with it. Now, is that what you wanted to hear? no I did not think so. So in my opinion, its best to ignore you, until you offer some information that could actually indicate how you screwed up your monitor. Cheers

p.s. and PLEASE, don't say its not screwed up, if you start to think that, reread the above. Dude, we all screw them up, so get over it and start a path of actually helping your poor flavi.

i haven't even attempted breeding her yet, i just was curious to know what other people do to breed flavi monitors. now i know what you do, and with obvious success with the species. she will lay eggs even without having been courted?

she is in a 4'x2'x2' cage with about 12" of sand, a decent-sized water bowl, plenty of digging, a couple of "caves", basking spot of about 130º F and a cool-end of about 75º F with temps between that. she is very active, constantly digging, climbing, doing whatever seems to keep herself busy. i feed her a variety of food items, such as: fish, roaches, grasshoppers (when i can find them from a reliable source), mice, crickets, super worms, and other reptiles. anything else i can do for her to improve things? i can list more information if that's not enough.
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Shane

Females do not need males to cycle and lay infertile eggs. Also or rare occasions, these eggs not mated eggs can and DO hatch. Check the achives here for a recent event from a non mated Komodo female.

That is a tiny bit rare, but infertiles are very very very common, when no male is around. Also, infertiles is common when a male does copulate with the female.

I do not know why you feed all that stuff. Mice work great. Also if your trying to mimic nature. I did field stomach contents(from DOR's) and it was 99% lizards. Various skinks, sand sliders, and lots of netted dragons, with a few small monitors(V.brevicauda). It could be the time of year/s I looked, but for the most part, lizards.

A foot of sand is good for nothing but throwing sand around. It will not hinder producing eggs, but good nesting would be very difficult in that situation. But no worries, get to step one.

I never understand this, I did not try to breed her statement/s. I hear that all the time. I never try to breed anything, they simply breed when they are ready, and it appears they are almost always ready.

If I keep them inside, they breed year-a-round, if outside, anytime the weather is good, and sometimes when its not.

Unfortunately, rarely does discribing your cage conditions actually help. Its far more important to discribe what your monitor has done and is doing. Hows its progressing, etc. That and how you support it is important.

Also, that list of foods is not all that important either, but the pattern of feeding is. Cheers

Along with so many others who are too lazy to do so..
You could copy and paste hundreds of pages from FR advice, yes possibly the best captive care and breeding manual on monitors that could be written.
The point is that every day the same questions from the same beginning mistakes are posted everyday by new names with the same attitude, that "I dont have to read the archieves and do a little research for myself, my problems are unique, and my husbandry is perfect". What comes next is a lengthy time wasting arguement by the newby who has no knowledge or expereince to argue with or about. The next step is a dead monitor, or a sick then dead monitor, why, that attitude.
You have a few who try different things for themselves and keep changing what they do until they either get it right, or have to start at square one with a new monitor, but they share their experiences of what they did and how it worked. Theres no shame to advance, to learn, to share, because we always make mistakes along the way in that process, but if you make the effort others will give advice and help as you have those specific questions.
The problem many have with FR advice is that they are blinded by their own attitude, they dont see the advice and help right in front of their faces.
And FR is telling it exactly as it goes, YOU DONT BREED OR ATTEMPT TO BREED YOUR MONITORS, in fact any reptiles, they breed when conditions are condusive to allow breeding to happen.
I always enjoyed reading the statement "Well I havent even bred my .... yet", this tells me that this person has no basic understanding of the creature they have in their possession.
If you have a male and female, they live together or have access to each other at any time almost anywhere, and they live in conditions that allow them to do so, they will reproduce, the females without males start laying eggs or producing them and absorbing them at maturity, this is anywhere from 6 months to about 1.5 years of age with any species in captivity. Now some will mature slower, and some even slower, yet some will mature faster yet, so this is a general idea.

They hide problems, or at least hide them temporarily, until they get worse later.
Soaking them is a bandaid that covers up real problems. If you soak them and they seem fine, then you dont soak them and they dehydrate what have you learned?
Simple, your husbandry needs serious fixing, or even a complete redesign. This is why FR says that the monitors are the best teachers, they tell you the truth, yet do not need to speak a single word.
If you do not rely on soaking to cover problems, and allow them to soak freely in their cage on their own, that is not a problem. Set the cage up to allow no soaking, see what happens, then add it as an option later.

Its OK as long as you get monitor shower caps from Pro Exotics.

To keep their frog hair dry?

Roger that. It's settled. No more weekly bathing, just keep his substrate slightly moist, and change all 1/2 ton of it every couple of months (I sift the rodent fur out, but I don't like the idea that his urates are building up in the soil). I use a compactible topsoil component from my local soils mfg, which holds caves very well and is easy for him to dig into. I'll send pics soon.

Roger

Wow I can't believe what is said about you Frank.
I guess I'll have to join in too. Hey Frank it's all your fault that my Female nested poorly. If you had spent 3 hours with me on the phone instead of only 2 then maybe she would have nested well. And if you hadn't given me that 3 way cross at the show maybe I'd have more mice in the freezer. And maybe if you hand't sat down to dinner with me to talk herps I could have been at home finding more ways to screw up my monitors. Yeah they're right you are an A$$h@le. My wife really likes you though!

later Frank

Nate

oh yeah by the way. You were right. That female ackie laid all over the cage and a couple in a burrow. hopefully I'll get it right next time.

All I can say is, somethings wrong with your wife. hahahahaha after all she likes YOU and Me, oh yea, shes sick all right.

As an old fart, I already understand, there are a whole lot of spoiled folks out there. They want others to do their stuff for them, then blame those others when something goes wrong. Hey, those folks could be are next group of elected officials, hahahahahahahaha. Good luck on your eggs. Cheers