Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I am very saddened about the reputation of these animals. I purchased a nile two months ago from a very knowledgable pet shop. They handled my little guy EVERY DAY, HE LIKES BEING HELD AND PLAYED WITH! I have heard nothing but nasty comments about these animals, so I'd like to brag a bit about my sweet little Jefferson. He is approximately 8 months old...he was 6 months when I got him. He has never hissed or even attempted to bite. I also heard that they are not good for novice owners, and I disagree with that as well. I have never owned a monitor ut have had many many many lizards and other reptiles. He's an absolute joy to have and I would like to meet someone or some persons that have had good experiences with Niles. Thanks guys!!!--Marie n Jefferson

Having a nile for 2 months does not qualify you to make those statements.Come back when your monitor is an adult, something tells me you will be singing a different tune. ( if you are able to keep it that long )
Ben

What would make you an expert? lol

I'm not an expert, nobody is when it comes to monitors, but,
I have been keeping them since 1992 and breeding them since'98
I have also been around a lot of niles, and seen what happens when they end up in the hands of a novice, not nice.
I wish you the best of luck, hope you have room for a huge enclosure, and some $ burning a hole in your pocket.
Do you have the Faust book? If not I recomend it.
Ben

I very much love my nile, Jefferson. I am not like
many of the people who are novices getting these animals.
I care about the welfare and well being of nile, I do understand that even though he was captive bred and is extremely sweet right now, there will come a day when he will eventually bite me. It's just the nature of a wild beast. I won't be angry with him or upset with him, because he is still WILD. I live in a place where providing him with a large outdoor/indoor enclosure is obtainable, I live in the country...and as a matter of fact, I could not see someone keeping such an animal in an apartment or in a backyard in the city. He's very spoiled in my care, he gets crickets, mealworms, and many other things to put variety in his diet. He has his own kiddie pool which he LOVES. He is being harness broke and takes the ocassional trip to petsmart to pick out his crickets, lol. I have done much research and heard much about the book by Faust, and I think I will check into it. I was just petrified hearing people complain that even from hatchlings they could never hold or pick up their nile, mine willingly comes out of his cage and enjoys shoulder rides and ocassionally being a lovely hair piece. I have yet to find one woman in any forum that has or handles a nile. Sorry for calling you cocky, I can understand where you're coming from--I'd say there are a lot of ignorant people every day that buy niles not knowing anything and getting suprised, I just hope you see where I am coming from and see that I love my animal very much and that I'm trying to conserve his species and hopefully make him a good example for his kind. I'd actually love to get him tame enough to take to schools and show him to children and let them see how beautiful these animals are...you never hardly hear of them except for in pet stores and in forums like this. I live in KY and in my area he's considered a high end exotic where there are few and far between. Hopefully my rebutal come across as someone who wants to be a successful keeper for the good of the animal and not to hold his as a display piece like many of the people on here. I would defintely like to meet people who have niles or deal with them because they are amazing creatures. But yet again, I'm sorry for my lashing comments. I'd like to hear about your experiences with monitors and learn some! Thanks!!!--Marie

What have I gotten myself into!
I apreciate the fact that you care about your lizard but you seem to be off base when it comes to husbandry/ behavior and the basic needs of a nile monitor in captivity.Your nile is most likely not captive bred, there are only one or two people in the U.S currently breeding them, but they are imported in very large #'s this time of year, I could be wrong, but unless you have some solid prof and you paid $2-300, I doubt it is captive bred, sorry.
Your monitor does not like to be held and it is not tame, it is most likely scared, stressed, or sick.All monitors of this size/age need a lot of privacy to become aclimated to captivity, a monitor acting in the way you describe is not acting normal.
Please do not take your monitor out in public, besides being terrible for your animal( different temps, humidity, dogs, etc )
it can have devestating consequences on responible reptile keepers.The usual senario goes, girl takes nile monitor into store, herp-phobic woman screams, freaks out, calls legislator and say's " think of the children!" " they'll be eaten!" laws are passed, reptiles are banned, ask Oregonians.
I'm glad that you are up for the task of enclosure building, please invest some time learning about the animal you love.
Good luck
Ben

or American Alligator for that matter. There are plenty of us out there.

Yay!Hi, I'm Marie. Awesome reptiles, are they all yours?
I am kind of new to Nile monitors, I have a captive bred male that is about 6 months old and 12'' long at the moment.
I haven't been able to find ANY local people with
any experience with niles, so I thought this place would be the next best thing. It seems like from all I've read on here though that keeping one of these animals is quite a nightmare, I haven't come across any happy/success stories. How have your experiences with Niles been? Any good ones?--Marie

May I ask, what is a success story? I am confused as to what that would be. As I am sure there have been many.

In fact a while back a nice lady from SoCal posted of her group. She had one individual that she took to the lake, the mall, all over. It lived in wonderful outdood enclosures as well as had full use of her house. In fact she bred them once and hatch a small number including a set of twins. Sadly after a few years, they failed from a mysterious disease or some such thing.

Also Jody, has a beautiful group of niles and has produced a few offspring.

Niles are no different then other large monitors, some can be abused and exhibit poor behavior or even do so naturally. Others may not be nasty at all. It mostly comes down to the keeper.

In my opinion, monitors are more like birds in behavior, and like birds, they respond to our sexes. I keep lots and lots of monitors, I get along with the females without problem. But the males treat me very differently. Much like you will see with parrots and such.

The males are not bad, they treat me like a male. This I like and respect. I would have it no other way.

So back to your monitor, why some have jumped on you is. You are saying all the normal beginer things and ones who normally say these things will shortly fail. They will allow the monitor to die or give it away and it will then die. Nothing personal, those who have been around for a while see this very commonly.

For instance, you make a point of your nile being captive hatched. The chances of this are very very low. Kinda like getting hit by a lightening bolt or winning the lottery. As 99.999% of the baby niles(100% at this time of year) are wild caught, that are falsely labelled CH or Farm raised. In this case, CH means, they have stolen the eggs out of nature(dug them up) and farm raised means, they have captured a gravid female and have put in a pen with others until she drops her eggs. In both cases, the labels are a lie, they are monitors stolen from nature.

I could go on, but there is no point. Who the heck cares if it is or not? 90% or more of all the monitors being kept are indeed wild caught or wild harvested. Its a very small minority that are captive hatched.

That you make a point of it being captive hatched is far more important. Why?

The next problem is age, many beginers make a point of age. Even if your correct about age, your now expressing poor care. As a 12 month old healthy nile could very easily be in the 2 to 4 foot range. Not 12 inches.

All monitor species, including the very small types commonly grow 2 to 5 inches a month, particularly in the first year. So while your proud of your monitor, the results you show are not something to be proud of, YET.

A point i hope to make is, do not worry about other success stories, only worry about your individual monitor. Find out what monitors are suppose to do, then attempt to allow yours to do that.

Heres why you are only one of many. Many thousands of niles are imported on a yearly basis. All but a very very few will be dead by the next season. Then it starts all over again. And again, and again, and again. Think about that, many of us have been on these forums for a bunch of years, we have sadly experienced tens of thousands of imported niles and their keepers and their monitors deaths(including from the story above).

If you do end up taking decent care(you really do not need to take great care) you will indeed end up being a very exceptional nile keeper. But that will occur in time, not in two months.

About love, how do you love something so much in two months. Is the word love something you tell yourself in order to keep interested in the animal? I ask this only because I do not understand it. I see it on here all the time. You know the keeper saying how much they love this or that. But I fail to understand how. I think maybe you should start with interested, then tolerate, then work up to like, then love, not human type love, but animal type love. Remember, these forums are to discuss and try to understand. I just don't understand your approach. If I did, I may have a different opinion. Also it seems that those who love their animals so much end up getting rid of them, as that much love is very taxing. Cheers

Now that's a very constructive message. I'm just on here to find ways to take better care of my monitor. I very much agree with the statement about the monitors behavior depending on how the keeper treats it and works with it. The more I read, I have realized that poor little Jefferson was stolen from his home
That's really sad, I hate the fact that I supported that! I understand what you're saying about beginners killing or giving up their monitors though. What kinds of monitors do you have? Do you have any niles? I'm just seeking advice so I can give my nile a good home. I would really like to learn more about niles and hear about your animals.--Marie

I had a nile monitor for ALONG time had she started out very sweet ( or so I thought) really just scared of me and as she got bigger she got less scared and more aggressive. She was a beautiful animal and very aggressive. She was jsut doing what she did. While there are differances between individual animals niles by nauture are aggressive. As a LARGE species they can inflice ALOT of damage if you are not respectful of them and while they do make good display animals they are not a pet type monitor. I wish you the best of luck with yours and I hope you have atame one or can tame it somewhat ( it will never get turely tame) I never could with mine. I never held it against her she just was what she was.

Mriswith

Look up the word expert, An expert is in relationship to the standard. Someone extremely skilled at a givin activity. Having mastered a skill. Possessing much ability. etc.

Sir there are many experts in the field of varanids. There are experts at taming, keeping, breeding, and experts it the literature of varanids. Of course there are many more areas of varanid biology that there are experts in.

And expert is amoung the most proficient in his field.

Why do you say there are no experts????? I think you should rethink that. Cheers

You are right sir, I should have just said that I am not an expert.
Ben

I do agree with the meat of the post, what can you know in two months? Only that your little nile is still nice. Not much more.

I do wonder about this particular type of monitor keeper. The "love conquers all type". While I am sure "love" may have some meaning. But good old solid concern and care and attentiveness, would be a far better start.

The comment of, I am not like the others, is kinda of attached to this type of person too. Also, its these folks that fall for the CH deal or farm raised deal too. I mean hook line and sinker. Kind of like a disease and its symtoms.

Please understand, I have nothing against this type of keeper, I just don't understand them. I mean, what happens if love fades away. Or simply, it was not love they were feeling in the first place. Or love turns to, like, or tolerate? Or love turns out to be hate? like me and tri-colored monitors, hahahahahahahaha Cheers

While that is a possible scenerio, I knew what the nile monitor was and what was to be expected when I got him. I'll take responsibility for him even in the worst case scenerio--he gets 10 feet long, escapes and eats a couple kids at a local playground--lol. More than likely he'll outgrow his current "sweet" disposition, but it's okay. He's a wild animal, you can't truly tame a wild animal. I'm just happy he lets me baby him right now and we have a good bond. He is very healthy, eats great and seems very happy. He comes out of his hides whenever I come into his room, when I open his enclosure to clean he climbs up my arm and sits on my shoulder or head. Actually I have a question--a lot of people say you should get them use to having their claws trimmed...I think its kind of cruel, but would it be helpful in the event he does get a little crazy?--Marie

The record is something like 8'11", That is, only one in the history of mans interactions with niles has ever been that big.

The reality is, 99.9% of niles do not exceed 6 feet. Most are in the 3 to 5 foot range. You can expect that your monitor givin decent care will get 3 to 5 five feet. And if given decent care will live in excess of 15 years, depending on sex(females generally do not live very long).

Also, clipping claws is about you, if you do not mind the monitor running up your arm and scratching you in the process, then great. I do not think clipping their claws is a good thing. Their claws are tools they use to live with. Kinda like a carpenter having someone cut of the end off the hammer that does the nailing. Then expecting the carpenter to still be a carpenter. Cheers

I see this time and time again, with people and pets. Its a good thing to respect life and embrace the various forms of life that share the earth with us. but anthropormfication is a failure on hour part. Moniter lizards are not domesticated and do not appreciate human contact, for that matter dogs were not always that way either when they were wolfs. To quote "baby a moniter lizard" is absurd as it would be to hand feed a wild lion, unpredictable and completely dangerous.
I have worked at a couple zoo's with moniters Birmingham, and Memphis, we never pet, or harness the moniters, however we do record invaluable information about their life cylces that allow for continued captive breeding, and relay information to the general public to improve pet husbandry. If you want a cute pet get a kitten, if you want to learn about moniters get a book.

Good Luck

hmmmmmmmmm, not so sure I argee with you. Heck, about a lot of things.

First, these monitors are no longer wild. They do not have any of the things in nature that makes them what they are. This includes zoos. In all reality, zoos are doing a fairly poor job with varanids.

In captivity, boredom is common with many types of animals. Why do they have elephant shows at zoos or bird shows, etc??????

Healthy monitors in captivity, need something to do, Period. While humans would not be their first choice for an activity, its now their only choice. Doing something is better then doing nothing. As long as they are still allowed to be monitors.

I am also wondering, what did those zoos contribute to the breeding of varanids in captivity? Cheers

With all do respect, you have grossly neglected to mention the enrichment process used by zoos all across the country. Being that your an avid fan of the moniter you should be aware that both Zoo's I worked at would burry eggs, and pre killed rodents for them to exacvate, as they would crocodile eggs in the Nile delta. We also provivded them with live crawfish and aquatic snails for them to forrage for in the aquatic portion of their environment.
I agree that zoo's cannot meet the demands of large animals like elephants whom in the wild walk some 35-45 miles in a days time, but they are more than cappable if not necesary to maitain several species of animals that are endagered in their home range that are not quite that large.
It is rather infantile to automatically defend a style of herp keeping, particullarly when one is commenting on an individual that attempts to antropormorphize his or her's keeps.
They do need stimulous and challenges, this can be acheived by changing perches, altering prey items, and moving hiding spots.
Veranids are nomads that move frequently in their said terratories, scavaging for carrion, or any other protien they can stuff in their reptilian gullets. They need space to move in, and certainlly more space than can be provided by even the most dedicated hobbiest.
Also, zoos having reptile experience vets on staff, particullarly those willing to competantly work with varranids is extremely difficult, as many of their needs are being discovered everyday by the zoo keepers who keep journals and record information on their keeps for future generations.
I hesitate to assume, but I would wager a guess that much of your love of animals came from school trips to zoos, one should not forget that, nor should one tollerate substandard zoos either.

I am sorry, but your post is very naive and full of errors. Monitors are not nomads, not in the least. Only people who have little, ok, no understanding of monitors say that.

Yes, there are nomadic individuals, but thats akind to comparing you to a street person. You have a home, street people only have very temporary homes. They are nomadic, you have a more temporary home, as in not nomadic. This is very similar to monitors. Their first task is MAKE AND KEEP A HOME.

About anthropomorphism. Without it, you cannot say a single thing about reptiles. Everything you think or say is anthropomorphic. There is no other possibility. You are human. You can only relate in human understanding. You are not reptile, you or no one will ever understand in a reptile way.

The point is, it does not matter if someone is being anthropomorphic or not. It only matters if they take good care of their charges. That includes zoos.

I am glad you fall for zoo rhetoric, the problem is, its still rhetoric. I have worked in and on zoos most of my life, and so have most of my friends. That gives me a clear idea of zoos. They are like everything else, some are good, some are not so good, some are really bad. In order for you to tell the difference, you have to learn about the subject, not listen to the zoo. All zoos tell you how good they are, thats their job.

In the decades I have worked with zoos, there was a handful of excellent keepers. Then a whole bunch of good keepers, then the rest were only holding a space. The problem was, zoos are to restrictive for good keepers, so they leave zoos. Zoos, in a general way are 80% bureaucracy and 20% actual effort. ITs really nothing personal. Cheers

"Zoos, in a general way are 80% bureaucracy and 20% actual effort. "
Hey FR, Finally, something we can whole heartedly agree on!
This is why I work with zoo's/exhibits, not enough people work with/at zoo's that are pissed about the way they are and want to make an effort to change them for the better( no small task, as you know)
I wonder what your take is on some of my fave's
Carl Hagenbeck
H. Hiediger
David Hancocks
These are the men who's vision I can at least relate to.
Ben

I think we agree on a lot, you just don't want to admit it, yet. hahahahahahahahahahahaha. Consider, theres overall approach, the details. I get the feeling our overall approach is the same, its just about details. In all reality, as long as the details result in satisfactory events, who cares. For instance a past discussion, I prefer real wood, you like artificial wood. I have reasons that real wood is better. The point is, for us, they both WORK. Its not us who care about whats better. Its more important to others that are not so fortunate. We have working opinions, they are seeking something anything that works.

I worked at woodlawn park zoo in Seattle when David Hancocks was there. He was the best, the situation was the best, the reptile department was the best I had ever seen(Ernie Poo Wagner).

At that time, was the best zoo in the nation. Designers(Jones & Jones) zoo staff, all working together for a common goal. Those times are rare.

Then he came down here and was at ASDM, in this case, it was too much for him, and he was not so good. He needed to shoot the entire staff and start over. He did not, he failed horribly. Then I heard he move to Oz. Thats what working at ASDM will do to a person.

The others I do not remember, may be past my time. Cheers

How cool that you had a chance to work with Hancocks, I am also a fan of woodland park, and Jones& Jones, and oddly enough somebody gave me a box of Ernies notes/papers from that time, along with all his old magazines not too long ago, have not gone through them yet.
Have you read "A different Nature" by Hancocks? I highly recomened it if you have not.He comes off like a prick, but he is dead on, I really dig that book.
The others are actually before your time.
H.Hiediger is probably the most influential( sp?) animal behavioralist since pavlov.
You must know Hagenbeck! he invented artificial rockwork and was a zoo designer way ahead of his time.
About us agreeing,I have always said that we would agree on many things but you must think I am somebody I am not.
I do not like artificial OVER natural, I just think they both work and am usually using a combination of the two in my designs.I have real wood in many of my enclosures as well.
But like you said this is not an exhibit forum so perhaps we will have this discussion elsewhere.
Cheers
Ben

I did to exhibits what I did to monitors. I never considered myself a exhibits specialist, nor did/do I consider myself a monitorphile. In both world, I came I played, and I move on. I did not research whom did what, I just added and invented/created to what was there. Again, same with monitors, I came had tons of success. I did not intend to effect or change anything, it just happened.

At least with exhibits, you build it, then there is no denying it. With the monitor world, its full of denial. Cheers

p.s. this fella sits on my porch.

Love the pic Frank, and the Tool theme you personify in every post!
-----
Jeremy

"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" July 16, 1945 Robert Oppenheimer

1.1 Double Het "Sharp" Snow RTB's
1.1 Hypomelenistic RTB's
0.2 Pastel Hypo RTB's
2.0 Double Het Stripe Albino RTB's
0.1 Suriname RTB
0.1 Anerthrystic RTB
1.0 Ball Python
1.1 Rhinoceros Iguana's
1.0 Green Iguana
1.1 Cream Golden Retrieviers
1.0 Pomeriaian
0.3 Catus Terribilis
0.1 Spouse
0.0.1 Youth -coming soon-

Naive, your being harsh, at no point have I insulted your character, obviously tact is not one yor strong suits. Yes some veranids are nomadic, some desert dwelling species stake out terratories, but you are mistaken if you beleive that they all stay in one place, peroid and never move, that would be a poor survival strategy, in a dynamic tropical to subtropical environment.
I for one, do not view everything in terms of the human experience. I view wild life with analytical curiousity which is what seperates scientists from novist. It is important for field study partcularly, that one not look at animal behavior as being cruel, injust, or indeering, its simply survival in a challenging world. The study is in how the organism survives and others fail.
You tend to write with broad sweeping statements. Until your published in a peer reviewed journal, I would suggest that you respectfully start and finish your commnets with "in my opinion". Facts are what matter, imagine if the scientific method begain with what is found in superstition and fantasy. I respect your beliefs but your delivery needs work.
Cheers

To be naive is not an attack on your character, Its only reflecting your lack of experience or knowledge on a particular subject.

For instance, desert monitors. While you may have read something taken in a certain context. I have spend years and years and years working with, breeding, studying in the field, those said monitors. So I have a different opinion, based on acutal events. If you have not done these things and I have, then you are naive(lacking those experiences) compared to me.

Please look up the meaning of naive, it does not have anything to do with intelligence or character.

Consider, if you and I are of equal intelligence or even close. And you have spent some time in zoos, and have read a bunch. Then compare that to me, who has spend decades in zoos, have been breeding reptiles since the early sixties, have traveled the world and spend lots of time looking at monitors in nature. Read all the books I could find and reprints, had varanid biologists send me stacks of papers, Then keeping and breeding over 20 species in captivity, For many generations. ITs very obvious, we would not have the same thoughts or opinions, it would be impossible.

So no, its not about your character, its about your limited experience. Sorry Cheers

Someone with your experience has surely been published at least once. And simply out of my own curiousity were would one find some of your written work, for instance outside of this forum. Are you a carreer field biologist, or are you strictly a hobbiest? These questions are not meant to bring you on the defense, its simply to clarify where your coming from. As anyone can and does find themselves today as self proclaimed internet expert. Thats why none of the classes I teach in ecology, do I allow my students to write their thesis with lietarture thats not peer reviewed, as most internet content is not.
And as an aside, what is your stance on the Natural History of veranids, in terms of their speciation from other reptiles. Where do you believe the evidence comes from for their origins. And do you agree that there is some relation between them and modern snakes beyond them both being reptiles?
Cheers

I will get back to this, but I have a question, You can surely tell I am not a teacher, I do not spell worth beans. Yet, you beat me up, veranid? varanid is more like it. I mean, really? Cheers

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. I mean we all make mistakes and I'm not that great at spelling myself, but this guy says he is a teacher and can't spell varanid?

You are terribly sarcastic and caustic, spelling is not important. I suggest you invest your furver in something more productive...umh like maybe getting laid.

I rest my case. At least I am who I say I am, I do, what I say I do. And I do have varanid experience. Thanks for playing checkers. Cheers

>>Their claws are tools they use to live with. Kinda like a carpenter having someone cut of the end off the hammer that does the nailing. Then expecting the carpenter to still be a carpenter.

Frank I can really apriciate that, I don't know wear I would be without my "Claw" Hammer. LOL
-----
Jeremy

"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" July 16, 1945 Robert Oppenheimer

1.1 Double Het "Sharp" Snow RTB's
1.1 Hypomelenistic RTB's
0.2 Pastel Hypo RTB's
2.0 Double Het Stripe Albino RTB's
0.1 Suriname RTB
0.1 Anerthrystic RTB
1.0 Ball Python
1.1 Rhinoceros Iguana's
1.0 Green Iguana
1.1 Cream Golden Retrieviers
1.0 Pomeriaian
0.3 Catus Terribilis
0.1 Spouse
0.0.1 Youth -coming soon-

Thanks Jeremy, I was hoping at least one person would be that, hahahahahahahahaha I am easy, hahahahahahahaha ones better then nothing. Whats happening with the lite project? Cheers

Ahhh Frank can never kid a kidder.

>>Whats happening with the lite project?

The light project is on hold for the time being. I work for the Goverment, and with a Full time job a Full time hobby and trying to pull off full on cage construction. The little light project is exactly that, awaiting attention. I will let ya know, however when I get some data.

By the way did ya ever get that email regarding crickets?
-----
Jeremy

"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" July 16, 1945 Robert Oppenheimer

1.1 Double Het "Sharp" Snow RTB's
1.1 Hypomelenistic RTB's
0.2 Pastel Hypo RTB's
2.0 Double Het Stripe Albino RTB's
0.1 Suriname RTB
0.1 Anerthrystic RTB
1.0 Ball Python
1.1 Rhinoceros Iguana's
1.0 Green Iguana
1.1 Cream Golden Retrieviers
1.0 Pomeriaian
0.3 Catus Terribilis
0.1 Spouse
0.0.1 Youth -coming soon-