Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi im new to the forum but not new to reptiles. I have been keeping all sorts of reptiles and amphibians for the past 20 years or so. I have had my nile monitor now for a little over a ear but he/ she does not seem to be growing at the rapid pace I have heard they grow at. I accuried it as a hatchling and it is now just over 2ft in lenght. It is actice around in its cage very very shy and flighty. It does not hesitate to bite when removed for the cage for its weekly soak either. It eats evr day. I feed it boiled eggs, crickets, roaches, hoppers, occasional minnows or comets, ground turkey and other varities of food. It seems to eat fine but it is not a hog and their is normally food left over. It is being housed in a cage that I built for it it measures 4 feet long 3 feet deep and 2.5 ft tall. It has dirt for a substrate and a few limbs and logs for climbing and hiding. It has a water dish big enought to surmage in and a few good hides. The temps in the cage are 88-90 on the hot end and 79-80 on the cool end. basking temps depending on log is 130 and 160. I rarly see him use the 160 but he does use the 130 basking spot pretty regular. humid is normall around 60%. He is in a very low traffic enviroment back in a spare bed room. and only interacts with me maybe twice a da for water cleaning feeding and misting. Well I guess m question is what am I doing wrong or is this a normal growth rate for a Young Nile. I was expecting a growth rate more of like myretic which grew to nearl 7 ft in the first year. THanks for an input or suggestions of things I can do to improve the qualit of living of my frisky little guy.

First off theirs no need for 160f basking with nil’s, it simply burns to much energy (stored lipids) this alone alters growth.

Next all this means nothing to me! 50 keepers can post the exact same numbers yet all have different results, why we need to see your entire set-up before any comment be made.

As far as I am concern this looks like a healthy small western female (probably from Togo) these are not the biggest niloticus to start with, but females do get to 4 feet and more. Females in my care grow a little slower then males, but my husbandry is tuned this way, your females obviously don’t make proper use of energy, nothing wrong with her its your husbandry.

I have no doubt that it is me. That is why I am asking questions. I will post a pic of her setup today after work for you to see and a pic of her as she looks today. I appreceiate any critisim as I want nothing but the best for my Nile. THanks again and Ill get those pics up asap.

I was going to wait to comment until I got to see the cage setup, but one thing I would ask is if your feeding all of that or just one of those mentioned items a day?? Also are you dusting with suppliments??

Keep in mind if you have a fire going you need to feed it.

I normally only offer one item at the time. unless I ive it a hopper and it does not eat it the first day. I have never seen my monitor eat. It will not eat if im in the room with it. I know it eats as it is still alive and you see stuff disappear but I have never otten to see it eat. I ave up on that after a few months i just clean the cae and water put food in and leave it alone. I will interact with it on its terms. i only interfear with it if its in the water and it needs to be cleaned or if it is where I need to clean in the cage. again thanks for all suggestions.

Here are a few pics of the cage and a couple of pics of the monitor. Thanks again for the help.

Your female looks nice, this morph never cesses to amaze me, they often tern vivid yellow with high contrast in white and black, one of the nicest niloticus iv ever seen was much like yours at this size.

Theirs nothing fun about keeping a monitor that doesn’t eat or do anything in front of you, I will try to help you change this to a much more enjoyable relationship.

Your cage ohw ouff! Well its terrible, theirs no easy way to put it.

Your cage and heating has prevented your monitor from a normal growth, the good news is she looks in good physical condition, emotionally scared but in good condition, both can change if you want it to.

Look at my ugly barrels, no keepers wants to keep anything in them, and I sure cant blame them! However once you know how they work the benefits outweigh the inconvenient. Not saying these are the best, no in fact I only use them cause they are cheep yet effective.
First they are made out of plastic, unless you do something stupid like drill a zillion holes or cut the top off, they will retain moisture (the no1 problem with your cage) secondly sins my door is replaced with plex-glass and only a few holes are drilled, this barrel is very energy efficient, therefore only a low wattage bulb is needed to provide all the heat my lizards need, a single 25w for babies or a 65w flood for higher heat demanding species.

I have 20 such barrels in one room, and after 7 years no humidity damage have been seen on any interior wall in this room (gypsy walls) this means the good stuff stays inside my cages, no wasted energy.

One more important thing about them, lizards feel secure cause the view area is not in the bottom and not on top, this allows them to avoid you while basking or resting at the bottom, your cage is 100% full view, witch translate into 100% stress when you enter the room.

Now I am not saying go out and get a barrel, forget it your monitor has out grown them, but use this knowledge while building your next enclosure.

Any cage that allow a lizard to keep hydrated, use of a good temp gradient and lower its stress levels, will allow growth, not only physical but emotional growth, if you respect this female she will learn to trust you and start acting in this manner.

I don’t like posting this type of information, mostly because I feel it’s a waste of time, many keepers just don’t understand what I mean, like the guy who separated his ornatus for example, he know about support but this don’t mean I can put him in charge of the croc farm while I am off golfing, theirs many interpretation of support, and each will yield different results, if it was so simple every keeper would be sitting on viable eggs.

Different species different needs, croc was raised with 25w incandescent bulb, nil’s with 65w flood, both in similar barrels.

Your cage is a big part of your troubles. Seeing your lizard appears in good shape means either you feed the minimum, or the cage enviroment simply is not allowing growth.

Deeper substrate, more hiding options, lowering the bulb into the cage, and building a basking platform will help. Looks like you use a red light?? I would use a 45-65 watt incandescent flood bulb.

Ok, you need substrate... LOTS of substrate.

What you have could work, just cut the bottom out and post it ontop of an appropriately sized stock tub.

These guys dig huge, intricate tunnels where they spend most of their time. They like that kind of security- someplace they can wedge themselves into.

This also gives them a cool, humid hiding place.

I cant see any 'good' hides in this cage. Im not trying to be mean, Im just saying it man.

Ditch those random drift wood pieces, or at least use them in a manner thats really useful. Make yourself a Retes Stack... check out the hidespot FAQ at proexotic.com

Give deep enough substrate to dig a burrow, which is what your animal really wants.

Substrate for these things needs to be like 2' preferably, DEFINITELY at LEAST 2' at adult size. This can be soil, or a mix of soil and leaf litter, etc.

Also, Id increase the water to about twice its current size, if not abit larger.

Stop the feeding of the eggs, or at least limit it considerably. Stop feeding the ground turkey entirely.

If you want to include avian prey, feed whole prey items. Theres really no 'need' to vary their diet- theyll do just fine on mice. Still, I do it myself from time to time- I personally thinks it keeps them stimulated.

You need to consider the future of this animal- if fed right and maintained well, it could FAR larger than it is. Some are over 4' in the first year!

Trust me mate, my animal was in the same situation at first, as I didnt know any better.

I upped the humidity heavily, which requires a daily misting. Provided deep substrate. Provided a decent sized water area, which I clean DAILY (complete water change, in my case at least). I started offering him mice, about 5-6 day, as well as frozen chicks from rodentpro.com

In the 5-6 months since I started doing that (and keep in mind, my conditions are NOT optimal), hes at LEAST doubled in size, calmed in temperment and he appears FAR healthier than ever in his life.

Get your animal onto frozen prey items if you havent already- it becomes a serious pain to have enough live food for these animals as their appetites increase... TRUST ME.

Also, seriously consider what you have there.

I was just about to build mine a 5x10 enclosure, but got turned down and am now looking for new housing. If you arent ready to go big with the housing, look elsewhere.

Also, I know what you mean with the no eatting behavior there...

Just sit back, shut up, and watch. You may have to wait awhile.... Im talking like an hour plus. And you cant sit there staring at the damn cage.

Read a book or magazine.

Stay quiet and still.

Eventually, youll look up and well dont ya know, howd he get out there and get that halfway down his throat before you even saw him!?

You just need to be quiet and he will let you watch him. They dont like to be stared at though, just like anyone else- sometimes they want privacy, and if you wanna view them, you have to work on their terms.

Thanks for all of the input from everyone. I have another cage as I think you can see in one of the pics that My retic is in at the moment. Its cage is completly closed with with a few holes drilled in the sides for air flw but it seems to hold humidity a bit better than the monitor cage The monitor cage was built first and I change the plan a bit when it came to building the second cage. From what you all are telling me it seems that i have temp and humidity problems that are not allowing my monitor full capability of grow so I will post some more detailed photos this after noon and lets see if we can find a way to maybe fix the cage I have. Thanks again for the input.

OK guys I really appreciate all of the info and help so far but I need a way to solve the problems that I have with the cage that I currently have. I dont want to build another untill the monitor is ready for its adult cage. As I beleive I have another cage with the same dimensions as the one the monitor is in but it has lighting inside of the cage. I could seal up the hols in the top and move the heat source inside of the cage. (what do you reccomend as a heat lamp red, incadecent, flood, cerimic heater, ect. and how about light cycles if you use a bright bulb how important is a day night cycle with these monitors. I try to keep mine on a bit of a cycle that is why I use the red bulbs. I could also close in the viewing space as the make it smaller so it can not see out as well and feel a little more protected. I did add some more branches and stuff to hide in. well anymore help would be great I have read many caresheets and from other forums but have not found alot of help most dismiss Niles in general and it seems that monitor husbandry hasent reached the same level as it has for snakes. Thanks again and here are some pics.

You should build one at least 2 feet longer now, why waste money on customising these cages, they are no good, nothing you will do can change this, a cage needs to hold moisture, these cant, they are cardboard and will warp and mould in no time.

If you have a tight budget, try a simple frame and correlated plastic sheets, these are the cheapest materials from home depot and work well.
I have cages made with this material that still look new 10 years later.

Use a low wattage 65w flood on a timer, its all you need for now.

As for hidings, this is up to you, sure in nature monitors have it all, but this is captivity and we keep them in our houses, therefore some compromises must be made, purists only see black or white, I see different shades of grey, and this area of husbandry is a grey zone indeed.

Many keepers have sold there animals to start a new project THE RIGHT WAY? So they provided the hole nine yard of deep dirt and a multitude of hides, one of the idea was that monitors would have a more natural set up and exhibit more natural behaviours, this sound all sweet and dandy, but in all cases where the animals in question are nil’s, salvator, Doreanus, prasinus, timorensis, yowonoi, yellow these animals have disappeared, they call this the empty cage syndrome, why? Cause these animals failed to adjust to there keepers, they kept a wary and nervous disposition, the funny thing is some keepers 5 to 7 years later still have monitors that will not eat or do anything in there presence, this is absurd.

I am not torturing my monitors by not providing hides the first few months of captivity, I am conditioning them to my presence, one of the most enjoyable aspect of keeping them, is when I enter my room and see all my monitors big or small of any species in full display, they look at me expecting something or out of curiosity. Today I watched Justin’s new nil’s, remember I posted about the funny behaviour, well it was part2 this after none, the male went down for a cricket and a drink, the female took his basking place, she actually sneaked while watching him, when he returned she moved back down a little (she did this before he got up) when he met her on his way up and saw she has been in his spot, he started jerking his head on her back and pushing on her as to say, I dare you!
This is varanids speech, and the fact that they talk in my presence is the most beautiful thing, my job is to make it happen, I could screw up and make sure this never happens again, but trust me I wont, maybe Justin will, I sure hope not, this pair is the cream of the cream, dumb keepers will turn them into nasty ill tempered monsters. NOT ME

Understanding new ideas is easier then escaping old ones.

ps. dump that substrate, use leafs or shagnum moss.

And will do my best to produce creamy baby.
Take care!
Justin

My suggestion would depend on your available space and what not- a serious cage for a large monitor can come in alot of shapes and sizes. Its just a matter of figuring out whats right for you and then putting that knowledge to use.

Stock tubs are great if youre working with limited space/money. Its a one time expenditure that can last your animal quite some time... though in a Niles case, youre gonna need a rather large one.

Not ALL Nile specimens placed into a cage that provides things like deep substrate and hides 'disappear'. They simply arent always on display for your amusement. When my animal is active and about, I enjoy it and watch him. I do this when I have time and hes around, because alot of the time, those 2 dont intersect.

Just because your animal isnt ALWAYS readily viewable, or available at a moments notice, isnt always a bad thing- at least not in my eyes.... If youve had an animal for 5+ years and its not showing itself, maybe you need to look at your own husbandry and/or treatment of your animals; or even your animals history (was it abused or mistreated in some way during its importation/pre or post sale?).

My animal has had substrate deep enough to burrow freely all its life. Its also had easy access to hides all its life. I acclimated my animal by giving it those things and then sitting back and shutting up. Mine was in my main room and at first it would hide about 80% of the time (though food brought an immediate response and could draw him out, no prob)- but I noticed he would show himself most often when it was just me, sitting alone watching tv or something. Over time, he began to do it more and more, even when I had people over- he understood that he was within proximity to a secure hiding place, and this gave him the security to investigate things that might be considered 'dangerous' in his mind. They are curious; if you give it time and trust, that will win out over their fligthyness most of the time.

Forget 'walking into the room', when 10 people would walk into my apartment, and my lizard was sitting out and looking intently from one face to another, THAT was a hell of a moment. Walking in and seeing them out and doing what they do is just day to day stuff. You have to establish a certain amount of trust, and let them have a certain amount of security- having a handleable baby is nowhere near as important as having a handleable adult, at least not with these animals.

out of curiousity, whats the deal with those 2 babys? they something special or...? seems you havent had them very long, but youre taking alot of what their doing to be similar of what they will do in the future.

With the lights I might even go so far as to say drop it down to a 50 watt or 2, just make sure its close enough to the surface to provide whats needed. At that size, its not going to need too high temps I dont think.

No offense but- your animal looks rather thin. I may not know what Im talking about, but the tail base looks kinda thin, despite its overall small size.

Try sticking with one or 2 food sources, like roaches and rodents, and offer them in greater quantity. Be ready to have 'some' throw aways at first, but over time youll get a gauge for how much it eats.

Humidity really effects feeding, as it becomes dangerous for a dehydrated animal to eat, so you should check on that asap.

As jobi said- those cages are about useless for what you have there. You really have to look into getting something better- thats just the reality of the situation. It dosnt have to be all extravagant right now- just something that will let him get up closer to his adult size before you make the expenditure to build a more permanent housing unit.

im tired...

Thanks for the comments. I am building a house at the monent so building a new cage and moving it in 2 months just aint what I am looking to do. These cages are not built of cardboard by the way. They are build of tileboard. They are a pressboard with a plastic overlay made for above showers and tubs. When I built them I made sure the bottoms would hold water for over a day so they would not leak, if a water bowl was turned over, on my floor. These cages are over a year old with no dammage. As I said in the beggining I have had this monitor for over a year and this has been its housing for all of that year. I mist my cages daily and reggulary pour water over the dirt inside to ensure it does not dry out. So warping and mold are not problems. keeping the humidity in is due to the face I have 2 12in holes where my lights are sitting right now. I have a 150watt red heat bulb and a 50 watt spot on the other end. I am moving them into the cage this weekend and closing up the holes up top to aid in holding humidity. I will build larger cages after I move into the new house in the begggining of Aug but do not want to build a 2 3X8 cages and have to move them in 2 months just a waste of energy and possible dammage. I will take the dirt out and try leaves this weekend. What kinda leaves should i get (species) If you can think of any other ways to improves the cage I have now for the next couple of months please let me know and please any ideas for a new cage to be built later woulf be great. Thanks again. sorry abuot the bad pics didnt think you would think I would be so stupid to use cardboad for a structure. Im not that stupid come on guys.

Card board is a figure of speech, I didn’t mean this in the literal sense!

But this material works well if the edges are properly sealed, the back side is kind of fragile to moisture.

If you really want to modify them, try closing the top, use a lower wattage flood, discard the wire mesh light cover it’s useless and could be dangerous to your lizard. Use any leaf litter, I prefer oak!
Cover the bottom half of the glass door, if possible? I would at least redo the door configuration, a solid 8in dame and 2 doors rather then one.

Honestly, why not leave the dirt and put the leaves on top of that?

I had the day off so I took some time and switched up my caging arrangement. I moved the Monitor down to the bottom cage with out the large holes in the top. This has made a drastic improvment in the humidity level of the cage. I also took out 1/2 of the dirt and added leaf litter and grass clippings and mixed it all up. This also seems to hold better humidity levels as well as provides the monitor with substrate that is burrowed in much easier. No its not super deep but it can get under the substrate and dig and play a little. I am still using a red heat lamp but I lowered the wattage to 65 and placed the branches under it where it has a few distances from the lamp to choose from. I also put in a 5.0 uv bulb in the cage for natural light to help with a day night cycle. I am not sure how much it will help but hey It cant hurt. Today i have noticed much more movement from my monitor and have seen it basking and swimming more that I have ever seen. I am tring to feed it now so Ill put up a couple of pics tomorrow. If you can think of anything else I can do please let me know. I am also starting plans for a larger cage after I get moved into my new house any Ideas for that would also be great.