Reptile & Amphibian Forums

i have a savannah monitor and a blue tongue skink and i read that both are very good first choices because they are docile. the BTS has been totally tame and docile since the day i got it. he just hangs out wherever i want him to and never runs away. i qquired a sav monitor a year later, ive had him for a few mounths. he ALWAYS hides doesnt tollerate being held and never hangs out.

so what does docile mean in monitor terms? because i am interested in a trio or pair of "docile" ackies.

THANKS!
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1 Blue Tongue Skink
1 Savannah Monitor

Docile monitor to me means I can enter the cage without being charged. If I can be accepted by the lizard with just a hiss and some half hearted tail whacking, I am happy.
But some people don't like monitors that act like monitors.

Scott
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Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

It can mean, not prone to aggressive behaviors or with monitors it can mean its half dead, or better yet, half alive.

My suggestion would be, stick with skinks until you understand, docile is a relationship between you and your charge(your in charge and control)

I believe your BTS is not docile either, it merely understands its tiny little feet cannot contribute to escape. So it "acts" docile. Of course you could be lucky and have it actually be docile(pure luck)

Or you can understand, your suppose to participate in this Docile thing and built trust and other reasons for your monitor or skink to like(tolerate) you.

You should understand, not all savs or BTS, or ackies start out docile. With your work and patience you hope they end up that way. There are no guarantees with living animals. For instance, I can have a monitor thats the tamest most docile monitor around. Yet, you can treat it poorly and lose its trust and have it not like you at all. Cheers

(theres a bunch of mumbo jumbo in this post-not as much concerning the taming of monitors but rather reptiles in general)ok, i just obtained my very first monitor a week and a half ago-so in terms of the varanus species im not too qualified-but iv had many,many reptiles in my day and have been able to tame every single one of them-and to me this new water monitor is no exception(i know all the moniotr experts are gonna go balistic with criticism on this one.) to me any reptile is capable of being dog tame(monitors especially-ill explain why later). When i was about 8 or 9 i used to go snake hunting (i live in illinois so theres not much variety) and would catch prairie kings, fox snakes, garters,waters, browns, and even came across a few black rat snakes(which i believe are endangered). Every one of those colubrids-especially the fox snakes/water snakes would want nothin more then to tear my skin right open-but oddly out of the literally thousands of snakes and turtles i caught-ive never been bitten once. The most challenging i'v had of snakes was a 6 and 2/3's foot fox snake (it was the biggest fox snake i'd ever seen-im not sure of the average length of that species but i wouldn't be suprised if it was a record breaker) it was a complete monster for the first 2 hours or so-kept coiling up and stricking-over and over and over.But i had developed a method for taming snakes before this one.(your all gonna think im a nut after u read this) What i did was let the snake go in the grass and let it attempt to escape-which in turn i would crawl on my hands and knees next to it (pathetic) and ever few feet i would crawl in font of it to which it would coil up to strike, then lose interest and turn around to escape the oposite way-after repeting this several times- when i cornered it,rather then wanting to strike it would calmly change driections, eventually,it looked at me as a pain in the butt rather then a threat and when cornered would slither either right over me or under my arms-next thing you know i got it slithering through both my hands-and twenty minutes after that i did my homework with it coiled around my neck(my ma didnt find it to comforting being that she had seen how aggressive it was only two hours ago. for over a year that snake was like a dog-literlly-it was tamer then my red tailed boa or any other snake or reptile iv ever owned-another technique was feeding-feeding time for that thing was a ritual-whenever i would take it out i would bring it outside and let it slither around the my back yard that was a small forest and walk with it as it hunted(so it knew when i took it out it got to go outside)-and once a week throw a thawed rat in the middle of my yard and nudge him in that direction to find it(one time he was messin around in a pile of twigs when he caught a baby rabbit-it was actually quite disturbing to me-i never knew how loud rabits could scream) so he eventually learned that when i took him out he'd get to go outside-and sometimes find a meal-it was like a scavenger hunt-by the last couple of months i had him all i'd do is open his tank and he'd slither out right up my leg wanting to go outside(once winter came his motivation to actually climb out and on to me died out as we didnt go outside no more-but he still loved being handled)-at the end i felt i needed to set him free- he was huge- abnormally big for a fox snake-and would make a great contribution to breeding in the wild. the point of this dragged out story-the meanest snake i've ever encountered turned out to be tamer then i ever thought possible-of course snakes are diffeent then monitors-theres no way a mean monitor can be tamed in a span of two hours-so how did he become so tame-how did he tame so fast-he was so aggressive... agressive is the word i am skeptical about with reptiles-reptiles aren't aggresive period-all they care about is survival- if they bite a mouse=there hungry, if they bite you= there scared. The more "scared" (or as you might call aggressive) they are, the smarter they are(because their instincts are telling them to protect themselves)-and as soon as you can use ther instinctive intelligence as an advantage-you can tame a reptile. Reptiles will never be like mammals. Just as a joke my uncle who owns a rot wilier will pretend to wrestle with me to which his rot will tackle me and hold me down. A tame monitor would never do that-reptiles have no morals/just instinct and you got to use that instinct. However experimenting with my monitor in the past week has shown me some tips to use in the future for when i actually start handling him. Today when he was burrowed i uncover the back side of him but left his head under the dirt(reptiles with there heads in tight dark spots make them feel secure it seems)and started scratching his belly and back. He twitched a little bit then calmed down. He then raised his head out of the dirt and started tasting the air-I talked softly to let him know i was there-little by little i moved my finger closer to his head and when i got behind his ear he stopped flicking his tongue and closed his eyes as if is was enjoyable. I stopped, he opened his eyes and start tasting with his tongue again-and then i cover him back up to his neck with the soil-when i pulled the screen back over he squirmishly pulled his head back under-scared little monitor all over again. But this is how i plan to tame him. Rather then going straight to the garded gloves and mingleing around my house with him squirming out of my hands-im going to make contact with him in a completely no threatening way. Eventually-in my eyes at least- he won't see me as a threat, he obviously won't see me as food-and hell be going on walks with me to the park- and a year from now i WILL post pictures and you guys WILL NOT contradict me like you are about to as soon as this article is posted.I've had snapping turtles that would follow me around the house no matter how fat they wer, a painted turtle who would strech her head out of the water so i could scratch under her neck, snakes that WANTED to be handled, and a litter trained bearded dragon.Monitors are more of a challenge-but thats the fun in it. Try to find a hot spot to scratch you sav on-behind the ear worked for my water-leave him in the cage when u do it and if you handle him put him right in front of his hidespot to save him the stress of running there.

While I am no expert, I believe your water is "scared stiff" when you uncover it's hide and pet it. Closing the eyes most likely does not mean that he enjoys it, more likely he is terribly scared. I'm sure the experts will jump on your post and be a little more detailed.

BTW, it would be much easier to read your post if you would separate it into paragraphs, rather than one huge blob.
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1.1.0 Leopard Geckos (Booger, Gimp)
1.0.0 Veiled Chameleon (Lucutis)
0.0.1 Quince Monitor (Pollux)
1.2.0 Thayeri Kingsnakes (Korben, Leeloo, Artax)
1.2.0 California Kingsnakes (Beetlejuice, Maraca, Kodos)

Yeah that post was quite terrible-just kept writing and in the end didnt feel like spaceing it out-the experts can argue all they want about taming monitors and what not but you are absolutely wrong when you say it was scared stiff. I could tell it was nervouse when i was petting its back-eyes alert-tongue tasting the air. But when i pet its ears its expression was completely euphoric.
And after about a minute it settled its head down slanted slightly toward my finger and just chilled. If it was scared it could have ran, tail whipped, or bit me-obviously my finger being behind his ear is in good range of his mouth. He was sleeping, i woke him up by petting his back, and then he went back to sleep when i pet his ear. Monitors get scared yes... but stiff... i've watched enough animal planet to see monitors don't go stiff. If they are irrated they'll let you know. This a forum for monitors not possums.

I don't have enough knowledge or experience to have a constructive argument, though I have "heard" this 'going to sleep' thing more than once on this forum. I have a Quince Monitor, a naturally shy species. When I first got him he would let me hold him and touch him a little bit and seemed to like being petted. I knew better, though. Now that he is more comfortable and knows where to run... he runs 90% of the time. I don't try to hold him or pet him ever, nor do I rip up his hides to get at him, because I feel this defeats the purpose of "taming" or gaining trust. I also do not expect my monitor to ever become "tame".

How long have you had your monitor? His hide is his sactuary, if you are lifting it up and touching him he won't feel secure there and will get scared/stressed.

I really hope the experts pop in with their 2 cents, because the knowledge and experiences they share here is quite valuable.

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1.1.0 Leopard Geckos (Booger, Gimp)
1.0.0 Veiled Chameleon (Lucutis)
0.0.1 Quince Monitor (Pollux)
1.2.0 Thayeri Kingsnakes (Korben, Leeloo, Artax)
1.2.0 California Kingsnakes (Beetlejuice, Maraca, Kodos)

Well, somehow, in terms of taming, im not so sure many of the experts have so much experience. Like you say tearing up its hidespots is losing its trust... im not trying to torture the animal, i just want to get used to my presence, and know im no threat. What we need in this forum is an article from one of those guys with the monitor they take on walks, the monitor that eats meat out of their hands, and what they did in taming it. Everyones seen those niles/water that crawl up onto their owners laps and take a nap. These monitors arent born this way-these owners did something different.
I believe that this species of lizard has more potential then any other to be trained and tamed. Like i said i believe their paranoia and alertness is all intelligence. If i could teach a bearded dragon to poop on newspaper(bearded dragons are dumber in my opinion-let you pick them up with out any fuss and most captive breds show no instinctive concern for themselves) i think i can teach a monitor to have no reason to run/scratch/bite.
I talked to a guy at the reptile show (he was not the one who sold me the water.) about niles. I was looking to get a nile because i didn't expect to find a water monitor there. The first Nile vendor i came across was trying to convince me that any nile could be tamed.(not very professional). I let him finish talking and moved to the next vendor.
The second guy(also selling a few clutches of niles) immediatly warned me of the specie's aggressevness.(he seemed more concrerned about my satisfaction then the $35 he was selling them for.) He talked about how he had bred them for a long time and it was infact possible to tame them but unlikely. He said that most people get disguraged after being bitten and scratched so many times that they just give up. He said most people would disagree with his methods-he talked about how if you want a tame a monitor you have to hold it, restrain it, pet it, scratch it, gently poke it in the head-basically get right in there and start a competion of pushing the limits getting bitten and pushing the limits some more.
I believed what he said because after all that "taming a nile talk" he told me straight up "If your looking to tame this lizard you should turn around, head to the back and get a bearded dragon hatchling." He was basically telling me "do not give me $35 for this lizard that i want to sell." I asked to hold the most active nile-he inclined me not to i would get bitten. I explained how i had large boas and had suffered worse bites then this little nile would give me.
He opened the tank and i grabbed the nile, it tried to move backwards through my hand, then forwards, and then straight to knawing on my index and thumb. It was fine no bloodshed-but i realized exactly how bratty these lizards were. But i told him i would be back to pick one up after i went and got some pinkies from the back. I was confident on getting that exact nile and taming it. I've done this all my life with reptiles. But on the way to the pinkies out of the corner of my eye spotted the water monitor which didn't bite me once. He just squirmed a little bit and thats it. The guy who was reluctant to sell me the nile told me-pet it,hold it ect. I think this works.
And i can still tell you that my water was NOT scared. It was pushing the side of its head with its eyes closed against my finger like a dog does when you get a sweet spot under its ear. I've seen the pictures of those 4 foot puppy dog tame niles-and i think the owners need to post a few articles on what they did to get them that way. BTW nice pick of the monitor(its a looker)-really cool lizards these things-their alertness completely astounds me... there always listening and always watching.

When a person gets a monitor and in a few days they know more then the "experts". Is that some kind of play on words?

You are indeed missing some very important points. Monitors do Play possum, they do so when they think they cannot escape. They do so in captivity and in nature. "They go bloody cryptic mate"(animal planet)I also wonder, what have you learned on animal planet? I have not seen anything about captive monitors and the stress keepers put on them.

You do understand its your monitor and you can do anything you like or believe anyone you like, or no one. But why not just check for yourself?

If your so dang good with reptiles you should know they have a heartbeat, you should know that at rest is very slow, and when excited/scared its very high. Also if your so dang advanced, you should understand its very very easy to check their heartrate.

So the solution is simple, if your monitor is enjoying you petting its ear, then its heartrate should be very low(comatose in your words) and if its stressed its heartrate will be high. Check it so we can have a clue. You do know where there heart is don't you? Its not in the same place yours is. Cheers

I don't think i know more then the experts-i just think that most of the experts are more into the study of/observation of/ and breeding of reptiles rather then getting hands on with their personalities. And yes i AM "darn" good with reptiles, i've always been able to get on their level-it just takes dedication and time-the kind of dedication and time that most don't want to put in. I will feel the heartbeat when i scratch his ear and they'll be no more "scared stiff" talk from any of you.

I have lots of monitors, they are not untame, they are not mean, they do not want to bite you. You really have to offend them to make them aggressive. Mine will follow me around beg for food, want to be around me, just for something to do.

The point is, you must allow your monitor health and metabolism before you consider its tame or not. You must allow it to be a monitor first.

Any monitor at half its metabolism is tame. Their tame, because they cannot move right. They can only move slow. A healthy monitor has tremedous speed, they can outrun you without problem. They can react at incredible speed, they can catch birds in flight, or catch a jumping cricket in mid air.

Also, a tame monitor is curious, if they are awake, they have to investigate, so they squirm around if you try to hold them. To sit there to me means somethings wrong with the monitor. As that is not what a healthy monitor does. If you pick one up, they normally lift their head high to see whats going on, they then see something of interest and HAVE to investigate it. Thats what a monitor is. Kinda like a ferret. They cannot seem to keep out of anything.

So one sitting there while you pet its ear is odd. Something wrong with it. Its gone submissive. and monitors are not submissive. The are curious intelligent "ACTIVE" creatures. In addition, they have minds of their own.

So please before you go on being mister tamer person, allow the monitor to be a monitor. The cool part, they are not mean to start with. (disclaimer) a percentage of wild caughts have been tortured beyond belief. They indeed have suitable reason to be mean and hate people.

About taming, I have wild roadrunners and wild lizards that eat out of my hands and crawl up on my lap, they follow me all over. They even just sit with me while I am working on our trucks And they are wild. They have no problem doing that volunterily, but they do not like to be grabbed. Cheers

No my monitors very healthy-and hes starting to put his weight on. He squirmed all the first day i held him, he bolts to his hidespot alot when i pass his cage. I just caught him in a position where running or biting seemed to be the last option-he did stick his head up and started scanning and tasting and after i pet his ear he seemed to just calm right back down.(i was petting his belly for about five minutes and for the duration he was checkin me out-anticapating his escape)

But like i said when i covered his cage back up he burrowed frantically. He seems to show normal monitor behavior to my knowledge(which is limited as you know).

You said something about your monitors following you around for food? What species are they? Were they handled alot to get that way? You guys keep saying dont touch him, leave him alone ect. and im just gonna listen. But if you could give me tips on obtaining that level of trust where the monitor actually begs for food-well in my eyes thats tollerent enough for me... to start with at least.

Theres alot of repetetive care sheets out there, none of which specify when to start handling and how to do it. Its as if handling is F.U.B.A.R. in the monitor world. Being a newbie to a monitor (and also finding it important that i handle my reptiles) is proving to be quite overwhelming. But i can say i have more appreciation for this little water then any other animal i've owned(even from just an observational standpoint-and i've gone through quite a variety). There just so dam observent.

list all your critters for the lizard whisperer.
Dude, where were you when I was given that demonic lil' blackthroat?
Oh, Id love to see you do the snake trick with my amazon tree and not get nailed.
Anyone wanna buy tickets?Hahahaha

Scott
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Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

lizard whispere lol (like i said pathetic) and yeah theres no way i'd try that with a monitor-snakes are easy-there just so dumb.

i only realized now you wrote "amazon tree" at first saw "tree" and thought monitor-amazon tree boas are harder and take some time because there very coily and prehensile-i've worked with one before-my cousin's-it was never completely tame but if handled properly would tolerate me-i used to hold it every time i went over there when i was young. Trick with those is to remove the branch its coiled around from the tank.

Lower the branch to the ground next to your leg and tickles it back. It willy prolly strike but you got to guide it so it sees you as one big safe tree rather then going towards the floor. Then if it starts to slither up your leg put your arm flat against the side of your thigh so it slithers over your hand onto your arm.

then you raise your arm-which will piss it off- but my cousin's would only strike towards my face- it seemed to think my arm was a branch... leave it up there for a while and after it gets bored of striking you can lower your arm (slowly) perpendicular to the floor. It instincts will tell it to go up and you really don't want to so much as flinch till gets to your neck. Theres always the chance of it laching on to your throat and coiling up but hey-thats reptiles for ya.

he never even wanted to take it out of its cage and guess what... i used to walk around with that thing round my neck-stick that in your pipe and smoke it. I know im going to be critized for the rest of my time on this forum for writing these "whisperer" articles. I don't realy care.

Put this in your pipe and smoke it. I really do not care what you do, I really do not know or care about you.

The only reason I say anything is, for the sake of your monitor.

Over the years I have been here, people like you pop up over and over. Most if not with all those cases, those who act like you, you know, think your special and tame your monitor by holding it all the time(submission therapy). There also seems to be some need to let the monitor lose in your house, there also seems to be a need to take away everything the monitor recognizes. These monitors die in short order. Then those who knew better(You and others like you) disappear like smoke in the wind. After all, no need to come here, the monitors dead.

But no worries, another pops up in short order. The sad part is, its us that stay here that suffer. We have the joy of watching all these poor monitors die. And only for one reason, your ego.

Like I said before, nearly all monitors are tame(do not attack or attempt to bite you) to start with, so taming something tame is silly.

Most reptiles learn within minutes that biting you is useless so they stop very quickly. I will say, laying there and letting you pet it, is not tame. sitting on your lap is not tame. Not running from you is not tame or docile.

What tame is, having the animals seek you out. Being tame is to include you in its activities, not you forcing it in yours. Being tame is to exhibit all of its normal behaviors, some of which are not so good(monitors have tempers)(a tame monitor can indeed get irate). Being tame is the monitor sharing its life with you. NOT you forcing your life on it. Cheers

I think im special huh? The answer is no i don't. And i'm not one who "pops" in and lets my animals die. If you care about my monitor then you better get used to me because im gonna be here for a very long time-and you- who cares about my monitor will probobly continue to answer all my questions for my "monitor's sake" right? I guess we'll see.
"Solute!"

Of course I will help your monitor, that is, if you make it easy to do. If you make it hard, then your on your own.

I do understand about the "experts" and such. With all the sites, you cannot believe anyone of them. I know I don't. I believe in the monitors. I read stuff, but I am not so sure how accurate it is. Kinda like you.

In my opinion, monitors are very tame. So taming them is no big deal.

I only ask you to first and foremost understand monitor husbandry and allow your monitor to be healthy thriving monitor, before you go about with your taming thing. Taming a healthy monitor is harder then taming a non-healthy monitor.

For instance, a monitor takes food off tongs or out of your hands, a normal healthy monitor, takes the food, tongs and your hand and eats them. Thats not being mean, but just a normal healthy hungry monitor, mainly males. A healthy monitor, grows four or five inches a month. Waters can double that, for some months. So good luck, see you around, Cheers

Like i said a few posts back- i stopped touching him completely... and even a few more posts back switched to soil rather then moss like the ProExotic guy recommended... i trust your guys judgement.

Heres a quicky though. My monitor will NOT eat pinkies from tongs or hands. He stays buried most of the day... i catch him basking very seldomly and when i do i immediatly leave the room before he sees me(try to at least-i know he needs to burn the metabolism)

Im almost positive he is wild caught or captive born at the very least, not bred. His shyness seems to even interfer with him taking a dip and he is a water monitor. And the first day i had him (when i handled him) he defacated on me- it shot out like a rocket and it was not solid at all... more like diareah... other then these few odd observations i've made hes able to carry himself upright-and sprint very fast-seems to be for the most part healthy. Sometimes i leave pinkies in there and he dont even eat em and they go bad-i thought there supposed to eat constabntly?

Oh and sorry i forget to include this in the last post i forget.
Should i leave the pinkies in a bowl-that way hell get used to looking in the bowl-to which i can put other types of food?

I have yet to see a "healthy" monitor turn down a meal with the exception of a heavily gravid female.(that doesn't ast long)
Looks to me, you have some work to do.
Oh, I wouldn't be too fast to turn Robyn's advise down.
Every once in awhile, he will say something that makes sense. HAHAHA

Scott
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Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

Up there a nice lady named Holly posted a pic of her and her mangrove, she has a really good approach to interacting with monitors(not taming, but being one with). Talk to her, it could give you a real good start. Cheers

I have and will continue to do so, thanks. But what about the low feeding response. Could it be that its still adjusting to its enclosure? What do i do?

wow.... i totally forgot i ever made this post. well... thanks for all your responses. most of them were of great help. i couoldnt be any happier for the health of my SAV hes about 1' maybe a lil more and eats EVERYTHING! mice, crickets, goldfish, turkey, chicken bla bla bla. ive really been able to gain my trust with him lately. ive been trying to create a bond around food and its working well. thanks everyone.
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1 Blue Tongue Skink
1 Savannah Monitor