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Bosc food for thought

jcmonitor Mar 23, 2007 02:04 PM

I received a very interesting question this morning about a young male sav that has a weight problem, so I wanted to just run through what I have seen and noted these last few years and about weight issues in this particular species.

There is a great misconception that the Savannah monitors are a husky round boxy animal, and some have even described them as the "Whinny the Pooh" of the vararnids. It's why so many young uninformed reptile owners go to that show or that pet store and purchase that, "cute pudgy one over the skinny, it looks half dead one." A monitor should not look half dead, skin and bones, lethargy all bad signs it's probably half-way dead anyway. However, the fat over fed pet store window monitor is not the best alternate choice either. A monitor should be "healthy" fit full bellied and bright eyed, but not so large that it has no individual fingers or noticeable elbow in it's extremities. Savannah monitors are a boxier monitor, and when provided the optimal diet and setting they are muscular. Males should have tone and strength, females too but they can be softer a little rounder.

Obesity in any monitor species can lead to liver failure along with a whole bunch of other problems do to fat stores accumulating between the intestines and the innards causing constriction and lethargy.
Unlike, geckos or species of the like, there is no "pocket" or spot that naturally is where the bulk collects. It will always spread throughout the body and in time, sometimes faster sometimes slowly, kill, "your sweet little pet."
So let's talk about a few things, diet, metabolism, and movement.

Diet-
The email I received this morning listed a number of wonderful foods healthy for your animal and varied which is great, however, the animal is still "fat" why?
This all comes down to listening to "your" animals specific needs. The misconception that one monitor is like the next is like the third, as long as they are all savannahs or all Niles is so wrong. Unless you are keeping a breeding group of 5 or more animals you would not understand why, but they are social and have a very interesting group system. There is a difference between general set-up and care (optimal word being general as in generalized for all vararnids) versus, specific needs of one of you animals care, even if they are all the same type of monitor.

"Monitors are monitors, they are not people!"…. or are they? :P I love that one remember like you and your family Savannahs belong to a larger family of all vararnids, every type having its own needs. Like brother and sisters though you expect to be treated differently than your sibling or cousin. Your general care is relatively the same but you like to eat only veggies and your brother will never drink milk… it's the same for monitors and I am saying this with experience of holding back "families" offspring and how they are different from one another and from their parents. Remember this, each animal has his or her own requirements above and beyond the, but I got the care pack, I bought the book, I did this needs. Listen to them, for each and every one will have it's own tick and it's own needs both in diet and in habitat function.

I feed whole prey every other day but my animals eat daily. Yes daily!!! These items are whole chicks, rats ranging in size based on the animals, and a mix of 1:1 calcium ratio bugs, i.e.. crickets. Megas are a bit high on the phosphorus side I believe at a ratio of 1:14. Not one, of our animals is obese yet some feed the same diet but vary how often or how much.
It work's out well to feed a chick on a Monday, a rat on a Tuesday but on both days crickets, it is the time of day that differs. . What does this mean? Well, it means the same thing it does for a human. In the morning when you get up you will choose cereal or a bagel. Like you, give your animal a choice, bugs, chick, snails, rats???? Then second feeding we alternate. If we fed medium rodents they get bugs for dinner or vice versa. Bosc monitors come from the grasslands of Africa so their eating habits coincide with the temperatures of the day. They are very diurnal animals monitors, and Savs will be most active in the morning spending energy looking for a place to sun and warm as the suns rays first rise. They wake up they trek were they will and they sit for a few hours and wake/warm up. Then it's time to eat. All this has been observed here in our summer backyard setups, and by noon when the sun is its warmest you see a rest period a time to go to their burrow and cool until the temps drop optimally again, later mid day. Then it's time for more food and whatever else suites them. Savannah monitors are hungry all the time so you have to regulate how much how often. Try and keep it as natural as you would like it they depend on you, but in the wild they do it for themselves, and they do it well, it's what they do. Nature takes it's coarse and if they require more calcium they will seek out more hard shelled animals snails, eggs, etc. If they require more protein they will select alternate food, the occasional snake, large rodents, other monitors!!!

To feed your animal one form of food all the time will lead to deficiencies in the long run, and it can be a cause of your animal being obese. Remember monitors eat when they are hungry, they don't diet, they don't care and they will eat whatever is usually offered to them, whenever; so make the right choices for them. You wouldn't feed your children cereal three times a day every day would you?

Mind you this is taking into consideration that you are not one of those keepers who feeds their monitors dog or cat food? Just cause it's animal byproducts, and a monitor is capable of eating rotten scavenged food in the wild and not become ill from it, it doesn't mean you give them canned processed horse!!! That's not a natural food item for them it is very high in the wrong stuff and yes it gets your animal fat!

"But I feed a varied diet regularly and my monitor is still fat, what can I do" Here is where "listening" to your animal comes to play and habitat that you provide. Let's finish with food before we move to habitat. If your doing this a varied diet of decent size your on track, but when your grandma found out she was diabetic she had to change her needs and diet didn't she? Ok so your savs isn't diabetic but come one work with your animal. If he is getting heavier and you have been feeding more eggs? Put two and two together, eggs, are a great normal food for them but think of how much energy your animal expends in the wild. They move miles sometimes to find one stupid ground dwelling bird nest to get an egg or dig for a half hour to get to the bottom of another monitors egg nest. Think, it's just like you guys the harder you work the more calories you burn the higher caloric intake your food can be. The less you move the easier it is the more streamlined the caloric intake must become.
This leads me to habitat and movement. All the time and this morning, I am asked how big is big enough, when it comes to a cage. You all know the general rules, if you don't go to Pro Exotics get a downloadable monitor pro care pack, read more. The info is out there. Ok, so you did all that what's the big deal? Well many people try and follow that length width formula, and for keeping an animal at home that is the general rule of thumb, but again your animals needs must come first. Savannah monitors are not Niles they are not waters they are not ackies. These are grassland animals with a body built for low ground rocky dwelling. What I have come to call the "mix" has been around a bit and took its basis off of PE and FR gritty lume and cypress, but now we have come up with a great formula that works perfect for these guys. The ratio I find that works best, mind you I'm in New Jersey, so we have humid summers and icy winters so you may have to vary depending on state and weather, but for most savs I find that 1:1:1:2 ratio of coarse sand (can substitute lume if available), hard grit small finely crushed stone and or clay like one would use in bonsai soil, coconut fiber for moister and sterility against molds and fungus, to plain dirt. This is a great soil base, it drains easily so you can water the area regularly like natural rain. It will hold a tight burrow when dry thanks to the sand and grit, but retain enough moisture cause of the fiber bark that if its nesting you want your females will hunt out the humid chamber. The rest is held by just dirt which graciously isn't as messy as you might find once you have watered it all once well. Remember I have higher humidity in this state so I can use less sand and grit and still have it hold a cast, if your in drier areas increase the sand grit to make an almost concrete base. My current indoor setup is custom built in my basement. Concrete floor utilizing a plywood (pressure/water treated ) frame that is 8X6X4. This a nice amount of square footage to cover. Screen mesh top and all of this easily acquired at your local hardware store. The key is deep bedding with Boscs, we have it almost 20 inches deep from the floor base to the ground level. This gives the animals ample space to do what they do best… dig. * added note I like to cover the whole think then with cypress mulch so it has that grassland mix to it. Yes your monitor will make it a mess it will never be neat, it shouldn’t be they are monitors not toys. Your best cleaning tools ill be a rock rake and a hoe. To constantly stir and mix it up again, not that your monitor wont do that on their own.

Which leads me to this last part, motion. Savannah monitor motion, is the key to daily feeding with no obesity. Right foods, good temps, great medium is a start but it’s the motion just like in humans your monitors must be stimulated to be active. They need heat and room and challenge. These animals are bulky because they are natural diggers, most monitors are, but Boscs have it down pat. Look at their bodies, level flat triangular head to start a nice whole just like a spade, powerful curved thick claws to thresh away dirt rock and soil, and a thick set of stocky legs to pull those claws back.
Anyone, who has seen pictures of my original breeder male, Typhon, can tell you he was lean and muscular, why because he dug daily, incessantly. There are many reptiles out there that stress because of cage rearrangement, ball pythons, geckos, they stop eating they need re-aclimation time, well not a healthy Bosc!!! If they are doing their thing they will dig fill re-dig and move that mix around daily. Its how they burn off those calories and stay sleek, and I find it imperative for healthy nesting in females. My first attempts were half a$$ed at best. I used dirt and sand mix with nest boxes burrowed below that the female could be lead too and then "forced" to lay in. Then I would dig up the box mind you we are talking a simple sterilite under maybe 7 inches of "stuff". This worked but it wasn’t right. My female multi clutched that first season, every 20 days I got more eggs till she was exhausted and nearly died, something I never wanted to happen. This is why although I am sure females of health can breed into their later years as old as 8 or 10 who knows maybe more, I decided to make her a pet and adopted her out when she was fit again. I saw it's toll. Learn from my mistakes. Deep earthy mix and that cypress will come in handy after she makes her burrow she will pull that in to keep humidity higher and lay her eggs.
All in all, this is how my animals get their thermal burn on, keeping metabolisms high and therefore will delegate what foods you feed and how often.

If you find your Bosc obese and you don't feed it canned food, you feed it variety, your temps are great, and your cage is the right size, check your substrate depth. Give them what they want room to roam room to dig. If your animal is already obese and lethargic and you correct your husbandry, get it motivated. Hide food place items under rocks half out. Make little burrows place food in there with parts out. Make that animal work dig feed and move. This is a great motivator. Some people ask if starving their monitor is key to loosing weight because in the wild they are known to go 8 months fasting. This is wrong thinking, your homes are not Africa you are not seasonally drying up and dehydrating where all vegetation and animals are scarce and your force to go into a sedative state where you eat less and live off your reserves. Hell, even females, unlike other reptiles who stop eating before egg deposition, will eat up to three days prior to egg laying. I have had a female even eat smaller insects the night of and right after deposition if available. Starving your animal will lead to kidney failure and vitamin deficiency. Like people, treat them as an individual work with your animal, again if your animal got fat and all you fed was eggs and rats, switch to small rats more bugs and kill the eggs for a few months, don’t just stop feeding him/her all together. You'll cause more undue stress and will do little to fix your problem.

Well I am sorry this was long and that it touched on so much but hopefully some people learned something from my experience. This is not dogma it is what has worked for me what I did how I changed. Try it ! It might help, it may not ( doubt that) but above all learn to read and listen to your monitor. They are special and besides letting them do what they do is so much more fun. Nothing like, five or more animals digging at once, messy sure, fun totally and they couldn’t be happier.

Replies (24)

kap10cavy Mar 23, 2007 08:52 PM

Great post JC, glad to se you back.
I have always found throwing a few dozen night crawlers buried in soil makes great exercise.
I have also put roaches and balsa wood boxed, half burried them and watch the lizards dig them up and open them.

Scott
-----
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

ztous Mar 24, 2007 03:43 PM

I would just like a little elaberation on a few points. The main one is substrate depth. My sav is still young and growing so providing a decent amount of dirt in relation to his total length has always been simple. I am now building his cage that hopefully he will live in for the rest of his life but am having problems deciding on a accectable depth. I realize that more is better but the overall weight of the enclosure is becoming an issue.

Aswell You mentioned in feeding habits that time of the day changes what you feed him. How did you determine when to feed them what. I find this interesting because I have never noticed a specific prefrence at any given time.

If I misread you or if I just overlooked where you explained these sorry but they were just a few qeustions I had.

Also the overall size of my final enclosure was to be 7' x 4' your opinoin on that aswell would be nice.

Also for a not to any new sav owners that reads this don't beleive the guy at the petstore you will need a big enclosure FAST.

jcmonitor Mar 24, 2007 05:38 PM

Hi how are you?

Ok let me see if I can clarify with more detail. First, off our small ones are kept in normal glass tanks and the new borns we have had success in a sweater box. New borns are always kept on paper towels till they are on pinks. Once on pinks I like the coconut bark cyrpess mix to start cause the humidity is important for the small babies, they can dehydrate fast, but mind you Im not talking dripping wall humidity just a bit above 70 percent or think dumeril monitor humidity.

The adults fair much better because of their mass in the drier mediums, their skin is tougher and not so supple. So if your guy is only a few inches glass is fine. I like to use a depth of about 6 inches of the mix in a 30 gallon long for up to two savs of under a foot in length. Please mind you it doesnt last long. I try and get these guys sold as fast as possible, the last thing I could bare would be to have half of a clutch of 30 get too big or not be able to be cared for perfectly, work on many other herps, so I try and keep my entire collection small and simple.

I haven't been overwelmed yet, but I have come close especially in 04' because of my girls multi-clutching.

As far as weight, if your using the right stuff and it's not super wet it should be fairly light. However, building a cage like your talking about use floor reinforement. I have to versions of a large setup. One has no floor it is in my basement and is the winter pen for the larger guys. It is right on my concrete floor with a plywood box around it. Screen lid and in the dead center a wash basin tub just for a general bowl that they can dig down too. It is about 4 feet high and it is filled about 2 feet deep of the mix, but mind you its just shy of 7 feet long and 5 feet wide. So you have 35 sq feet of surface and then 2 feet deep of medium. there is no cage that can hold all that, thus right on the floor.

For your situation shoot for a depth of 8-10 inches. Reinforce your frame a nice 2x4 frame with the floor of your cage bracketed on and supported also in the center should hold medium to that depth fine. Deep is great but if it's not outside it's fine to keep it simple. Your animal will be happy as long as he can hide even 4 inches from the surface in his little den, its a matter of security, and rocks branches, etc can make up for depth. If its deep they will go deeper almost to the floor. Remember, they do what they do on their own, they will work with you in that sense. It you can only do 3 or 4 inches of depth thats fine just when he picks his spot help him out by giving him even a plastic hide box for over the whole. Its a matter of security, all they want is to feel alone and safe from eyes.

The food issue, that one you may need to re-read it isn't such a predecided choice to do one food item over the other split up in the day, it is rather random.

I just keep it simple, they eat a rodent in the am, smaller chicks or bugs for second meal, if they even take it. It is a matter of offering they may refuse, but remember in the wild they eat whenever they are hungry. This can be every day, every other, remember it will depend on your monitor. I only came to that point in an attempt to make them feel as natural as possible. There are not always bugs, there are not always rodents, running around each day. Lots of variety out there in the wild, I only try to mimic it. Remember, other large breeders do fine on just rodents daily with other monitors. This strategy I listed in the previouse post is more like a guide for Savs cause they seem to be the monitor most easily made fat and lethargic. It isn't always one factor, remember it's everything.

Keep it as simple as possible for yourself so can always enjoy your monitor.

Hope that helps

FreedomDove Mar 25, 2007 12:36 PM

I have been told by other "monitor experts" that a sav can be fed only rodents every day and will not be fat if the basking temp is high enough. Is this true?
If a monitor is comfortable/not frightened with the activities that go one outside of his enclosure will he still hide/borrow? I know that they do it naturally for security but do they do it if they feel sucure without having to hide or burrow?
I am very happy to have your mind to probe. Thank you

-----
Shannon in Reno
1 savannah monitor (Pombe-means "beer" in Swahili)
6 dogs
1 cat
32 rats
50 mice
54 chickens
2 beardies
1 black rat snake
~100 hissers
1 giant milipede

jcmonitor Mar 25, 2007 05:08 PM

Hi Shannon,
I though I covered some of these points in our last email?
Let me see if I can recap, a rodent only diet is fine, my efforts are for optimal enviornment for breeding. As far as a pet although I believe in a varied diet, yes, rodents is stable it provides them with all they need as a whole food and they can be fed them daily. The weight issue can be avoided if your temps are optimal. Think I listed those for you, but remember drop the treat egg for now and up those temps.
The security issue- yes even if the monitor is comfortable they should want to hide, it's a very natural thing for them to do no matter what. You can have the nicest pet monitor there is and he can love to see you be handled and all that but ifhe never burrowed I would be astonished, its second nature to eating and sleeping it's just what monitors do especially the savannahs natural diggers ...ha ha ha

FreedomDove Mar 26, 2007 08:06 AM

I just posted this as a dicussion for all. I understood your email. Thank you very much
-----
Shannon in Reno
1 savannah monitor (Pombe-means "beer" in Swahili)
6 dogs
1 cat
32 rats
50 mice
54 chickens
2 beardies
1 black rat snake
~100 hissers
1 giant milipede

nerkhunts Apr 15, 2007 02:22 PM

You should post some pics of Pombe, and , um, make sure you are in the shot too.

weidjd Mar 25, 2007 03:28 PM

Just wanted to say this was a great post about Savs(monitors in general). The Substrate and diet parts to me were very helpful. How about market shrimp or other market seafood? Snails do you feed any? I would think snails are not the easiest thing to find.

Thanks

jcmonitor Mar 25, 2007 05:13 PM

There is something to be said about the natural habbitat of these guys, and the sea food variety foods. Market is fine clean it well, however, keep in mind shrimps and things are very high in fat bonding vitamins and should not ever be a stable. Savannahs are not waters they are not dumerils, they may have a salt or fresh water spot with in a territory but they do not reside feed and forage about in them. They are inland grassland animals. Snails you will find inland, even in the grasslands of Africa. Stick to the bugs, rodents and chicks but a treat of a large shrimp will be no problem. Consider it a treat.

Now with our dumerils we feed small shrimps from market regularly that is their juvinile diet, crickets and shrimps same with our niles and waters because they are very coastal and always near and abundant source of water.

Hope that helps remember savannah treat not staple!!!

kap10cavy Mar 25, 2007 08:28 PM

About substrate, I have had many savs come through my home.
Mostly rescues dropped off at the local pet stores.
I did notice that not all use the same substrate.
My first savs used a hard dirt with some clay(from my back yard)
Some would not use it, I had one that would dig for hours and hours in a sandy soil I got from the river bank.
I had a pair that seemed like they liked to tunnel in a hard packed dirt with lots of small rocks (cheap fill dirt)
It got to where I would just set different dirts in each cage to find out which they would use.
Yes, it made more work for me, but to make them happy living in these boxes, I did it.

Scott
-----
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

jcmonitor Mar 26, 2007 09:00 AM

That's what it always comes down to Scott, what makes your monitor happy

When you can have enough of them at once, it's just so true how social they are and how individual they are. It's really interesting especially when you have a generation or two of a "family". Granted, the captive breeding effort I think forces them to be more oriented that way then in the wild, but together in the larger enclosures you can see a nice higherarchy.

Then, again nature kicks in and my younger male would attempt to breed his mother, which although I know this may occure randomly in the wild, I just had to seperate them and keep it my original daddy male. Too close for comfort eh ahhaha

weidjd Mar 25, 2007 08:29 PM

Thanks for info. I was told very young under 8" savs should not have as extreme temps more so the basking area temp. This would help keep the humidity up as you stated. What temps do you use for little ones?

Thanks

DocThaStar Mar 25, 2007 11:47 PM

Yesss.... speaking of temps. I have a 150W tight beam light for basking and i just wondered (after a little thought) if this is going to maybe get one part of him too hot? also, I am using 100% sand and he seems to enjoy it, is this going to end up being bad for him(or should i say "it"? Here's a pic of Deuce in his first home. I will post a couple more pics if someone can tell me how to post more than one in one message.
Image

DocThaStar Mar 25, 2007 11:49 PM

i mucked that up
Image

jcmonitor Mar 26, 2007 09:23 AM

Awe so cute hehehehe :D

DocThaStar Mar 25, 2007 11:50 PM

Deuce on first adventure in the living room
Image

jcmonitor Mar 26, 2007 09:11 AM

As long as it is your "hot spot" no he wont burn himself or overheat. He will always move about as freely as you will let him if the gradient is proper. If you find your dont have a fair gradient of at least 10-15 degrees difference from the ambient air to the cool to the hot spot side then move that spot just to one end of the cage. Make that flow work right to left or left to right. Your monitor knows what temp he wants to be so as long as your not forcing to one way or the other he will thermoregulate fine on his own.

Plain sand is totally fine medium as long as your monitor is large enough to not get impactions. Remember natural enviorment isnt even really sand but more that dusty almost arizona soil with various vegination and rotted tree wood over it usually in a range. Remember further inland drier, further to the forests and water supplies more vegitation more humidity. If your monitor is happy don't change.

This is a great point because I think alot of people are concerned if they aren't using the mix they are cheating their animals out of something. There is a world of differnce in your husbandry of a pet and attempting to make animals breed and lay and nest. Our mix strictly is formulated to provide our nesting girls not only a burrow for resting and natural hiding, but a place to dig dig deep to a moist area moist enough and warm enough to lay her eggs. They have no idea we plan to dig them up and so they look for that ideal incubation temp 86-88 degrees 98% humidity. Theres where that bit of cypress and cocoanut husk comes in. Regular sand is peachy If you decide you want to breed switch it up.

One observation I have on savs is males will breed or want to no matter what. If they smell female they get excited. Hell I have seen my male get excited over a female nile of the right size. Its a matter of scent and a matter of boys will be boys. But like any other breeding effort in a reptile if your female isnt reseptive, if she isnt 100% satisfied with wasting all this effort on weight, calcium expense and stress, she wont let him get close. So it all comes down to your purpose. Pets are pets but treat them like monitors, breeding is breeding provide them with the resources to do so and they will.

jcmonitor Mar 26, 2007 09:02 AM

The little guys are kept on the warmer mid range. 85 cool end 95-98 warmer end. They are so small and that skin so light to have a 140 degree hot spot would dry them up. It's at least 6 months before that skin gets tougher to handle that drier heat, and of coarse anything cooler than 80 I would find ill effects on little guys. That ten degree gradient seems to do them just fine those first few months.

weidjd Mar 26, 2007 10:31 AM

Sounds good. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

kich4theanswer Mar 26, 2007 05:40 PM

JC,

I knoticed that you were from NJ. I was just wondering if you go to the White Plains shows and if so, if you would be willing to speak to me a little about soils, etc. You have absolutly no idea how hard it was for me to find the right soil here in CT, especially during the winter months!

I've been getting into this whole soil thing, haha . I also just enjoy talking about reptiles in general!

-Paul

jcmonitor Mar 27, 2007 08:03 AM

Hi Paul,
Yes I do go to White Plains, I should be thre for the Sunday show this April, I think it's the 22nd. If you want go to the website and take my number down. CCReptiles.com give me a buzz when you are there we can touch base. I still dont know if I am going for my own supply needs are as a vendor yet, because I have some stuff for sale, but about 90 eggs of assorted critters in the incubators. We will see what comes out first and that will make the final choice.

Take care,
JC

kich4theanswer Mar 27, 2007 08:45 PM

JC,

Thanks for the reply! I will definately be in contact with you then. I will actually be a vender there, working for Slither and Swim from Ct. See you at the show !

-Paul

jcmonitor Mar 28, 2007 10:51 AM

Nice Ill see you there

nerkhunts Apr 15, 2007 02:00 PM

Hey Paul,

I'll ask for you next time I'm in Sltither and Swim. I stop in alot on my way home from work. I like to see what you guys have and pick up some crickets. I might go to the show too.

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