Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Dehydration of a sav refers to the proportion of electrolytes in his blood serum.
The way the lizard's kidneys work, urine cannot be more concentrated than his blood plasma. They lack a glomerulus to reverse an osmotic gradient. They pass urea instead of ammonia.

In the wild, savs do not eat rodents. It happens that the blood serum of a rodent has virtually the same salinity as the savs own blood- therefore there is no hydration from eating rodents.

In the wild, savs eat Brachytropes for the bulk of their diet. These are mouse sized (up to 6g) crickets that are much 'juicier' than rodents.

A sav may have no opportunity to drink for long periods in the wild. In captivity they do drink. Drinking, of course, is a sign of dehydration- but we usually just call it 'thirst'. This sort of dehydration is not a problem. Drinking cures it...lol

By monitoring your savs urates you can get a very good idea of his state of hydration on a day to day basis.

If he passes a lot of water along with the urea, dehydration is not a problem.

However there may be long term effects on the kidneys from chronic mild dehydration.

Again, monitoring his urates will give you a good idea:

healthy hydration is indicated by white, liquidy or pasty urates.

mild dehydration is indicated by yellow or gritty or lumpy urates.

If you notice signs of dehydration, there are many ingenious ways to feed him food that contains more water. The effects of treatment are visible in a single day.

If you go around trying to think about crickets being juicer then rodents. THat has not one silly think to do with it.

What has to do with dehydration is, your keep your monitor in conditions that IT CANNOT MAINTAIN A NORMAL FLUID LEVEL.

In nature they MUST find burrows that maintian about 50% humidity, in order to not dehydrate. These burrows do not have ANY air movement. These burrows fit their body exactly. They made the burrows in such a way that it does that.

They do not make permanent burrows if dry areas. They do not make permanet burrows in wet areas. There is reason. They make there homes is PARTICULAR areas for a reason.

Lastly they DO NOT MAKE THEIR BURROWS IN BOOKS AND PAPERS or on the interent. The information you gather is OUT OF CONTEXT TO THAT LIVING ANIMAL. Which is why I say, you do not get it.

Once a grip of years ago, a foolish person on here was rationalizing that my temps were too high, he was foolish enough to state the temps of Oz where the monitors in question occurs. He quoted some almanac or weather site. He said, it only got 95F in australia. I almost broke my neck laughing so hard. Where on earth did this fool get this information. Heck, I been to australia many times, and I am witness to the fact, it gets over 95f in the cooler parts of the country, like Sidney. In the warmer parts, it gets warm, real warm. i was in Marble bar in the winter and it was 108F and the locals were out running around outside having a ball. I questioned this, they told me its too hot in the summer(135plus) Of course its hotter in Goldsworthy.

All that means is, your information is OUT OF CONTEXT. In all reality, you do not need to know any of that. The reality, the monitor WILL TELL YOU. But you have to listen and its clear you don't know how, you only know how to read.

With a living animal, words are academic, and academics are academic.

Let me try a tactic I do with the grandkids, Whatever you do, do not take your monitors to a Vet, Please do not. Cheers

> > > healthy hydration is indicated by white, liquidy or pasty urates.

Frank,
I don't know if you read where I stated that my sav has always pooped in the water pan or not but it has. It doesn't stay in there for any length of time, though. And yes, I'm a bad boy, I do have him in a large tank with a screen top but I keep the majority of the top covered with plastic, thinking it would help maintain humidity.

I had it on Aspen but wasn't comfortable with the chances of ingestion so I found what I think to be some good dirt. Humidity level ranges from 45% - 55%.

You said that water-pooping is indicative of dehydration, I'm not doubting you, not at all, I just would like to know if its ALWAYS true.

The only time I've ever seen it drink is the day I brought it home, 5 months ago. And with the humiditiy level being what it is and the sav seemingly not ever having trouble shedding, I'm a bit confused, searching for "cause & effect."

When I clean the water pan there is always a white or yellowish white paste that's sometimes stuck to the bottom. That's why I ask if the quoted statemnt above is true.

Thanks!
HH
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It is said that 1 out of every 4 people are mentally unbalanced. Think of your 3 closest friends, if they're normal, then it's you.

Hello HappyHillBilly,
Just between you and me, I'd go with the info from the guy with stacks of monitor eggs around him an not the one buried in papers, and websites...
I can tell you that before I dedicated myself to doing it right, I tried towels over the screen, newspaper, plastic, etc. The only thing that has truly worked is the solid top with the light inside... I could tell as RSG had mentioned in "cage building 101"- (which are FR models) that the humidity condensed on the glass(plexi in my case) in the cooler areas. The humidity and heat is thick enough to feel with you hand and seems somewhat uncomfortable to breath when your head is in there...
Remember that the books will tell you that a Brahma is: " First imported from India around the 1850s, farmers and ranchers were attracted to this sturdy breed thanks to its adaptability, heat insensitivity and insect resistance."
Someone who has spent time in pastures will tell you: "thats the mean'un that'll try to getchu if you come to close!"- There are exceptions to most opinions but: One is useful behind a desk, the other will save your life if you're hands on... Best to you- Mike

Ha!
If you haven't already, read my reply to DWS and I think you'll see me & you think alike on this.

I didn't come right out and say it but, yes, I've come to respect FR's wisdom. "Wisdom" has more meaning than most people realize. Wisdom = Knowledge, put into action on a continuous basis and, combined with understanding. I'll stop there before I get FR too puffed up. LOL!

My tank setup was only temporary, for the second time, if you know what I mean. I had plans to build several needed cages a few months ago but then the sky opened up and I was quickly, unexpectedly, smoothered in work. Being self employed, one can't afford to say "No" very often, no matter how far behind they are.

I've got all materials for cages, I'm just gonna have to TAKE the time to git 'er done.

Like I said, I wasn't doubting what FR said previously about dehydration/water-poopin', I just wanted to understand where my situation is breaking down.

Thanks, Mike!
Mike, also. (HH)
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It is said that 1 out of every 4 people are mentally unbalanced. Think of your 3 closest friends, if they're normal, then it's you.

That people are starting to understand its not about exact details, but more abour common sense and the ability(guts, lack of brains etc) to make hard decisions.

The truth is, these animals are in OUR hands, as such, we have to judge them here, with their results.

As many know, I do lots of field work, as such, I understand what is in context and what is not. Most papers have little or no context to our captives. Of course there is lots of good information. But its behavior and behavior is very very weak, in field studies. In a nut shell, biologists got to become sensitive enough to understand, that catching them, duct taping radios, surgically installing radios and lastly just following them is enough to total derange their behavior.

There are many great subjects for studying monitor behavior. That are so very easy to study, like the famed park monitors. But those same biologist that stick radios in them and catch and release, think that park monitors are not natural. Hmmmmmmmm are radios more or less natural. Or simply chasing an extremely wild monitor vs. sitting at a picinic table and watching individuals that are use to coming close to people. Yea, you can throw out the diet of park monitors or sewer monitors, but the rest of the basics and behavioral structure is exactly the same. Cheers

Commonsense is such a rarity in many different scenarios these days, not just in reptile/animal care. Hopefully after 3 decades on the "Threatened Species" list, its making a comeback.

There weren't any Internet forums when I got into keeping snakes nearly 40 years ago. There were very few books on husbandry and few fellow keepers, too. If you didn't have commonsense, you were SOL. And so were your reptiles.

I've only been involved in forums the last 3 yrs or so and I had no idea there were so many "wannabe practicing scientists" keeping reptiles (that's not a dig at anybody specific).

I mean, the way some of these people talk I envision them handling their reptiles while wearing surgical masks, gloves, and scrubs.

And to hear, "The book (or caresheet) clearly says that basking temp should be 135, NOT 136." AAArrrggghhhhhh!!!

I had one of these types on another forum ask me if I had my new beardie quarantined.

"That depends," I said, "If you consider quarantine to mean two absolute sterile decontamination stages between it and any other animal, no, it's not quarantined. However, it is in a seperate enclosure."

This person bought a microscope and does weekly fecal exams and pumps in meds for the slightest thing. I wouldn't doubt it if the poor creature had cardiovascular sensors taped all over it.

A thought just popped into my head. Maybe the reason forums have so many "scientific keepers" is due to the fact that those with commonsense have no need for forums. Ya reckon? I dunno.

That's all folks! I'm thru rantin'.

Ya'll take care!
HH
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It is said that 1 out of every 4 people are mentally unbalanced. Think of your 3 closest friends, if they're normal, then it's you.

> > > "healthy hydration is indicated by white, liquidy or pasty urates."

DWS,
Would you mind blessing me with a link or something that supports the above statement? To me, you appear to be scientifically educated, and I don't mean that in a bad way. I feel that science has its place but most of it comes from books, temporary studies & research, but not continuous hands-on experience. You may may well be the exception from the norm, I'm not doubting or questioning that.

I want to know everything I need to know in order to provide my reptiles with the best care, combining science with commonsense, when needed, since I'm a common, simple man.

You see, I've been reading Frank's posts for awhile but have just recently seen you. Thus the difference in my questions to you & FR.

Thanks!
HH
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It is said that 1 out of every 4 people are mentally unbalanced. Think of your 3 closest friends, if they're normal, then it's you.

Reptiles can not concentrate urine more than their own plasma:
jeb.biologists.org/cgi/content/full/208/4/587

"Urates form the major end product of nitrogen metabolism excreted by the kidneys of birds, all reptiles except some chelonians from a freshwater aqueous environment, and a few primarily terrestrial amphibians (Dantzler, 1988). Uricotelism is one physiological adaptation that permits animals that cannot produce urine more concentrated than the plasma (amphibians and reptiles) or only modestly more concentrated than the plasma (birds) to occupy relatively arid terrestrial habitats"

Urates are white, liquidy/pasty:
www.sulcata-station.org/faq.html
"Urates can vary in consistency from totally liquid to about the same consistency as toothpaste."

Gritty or lumpy urates are an indication of dehydration:
www.sulcata-station.org/faq.html
"Do the urates seem really hard or gritty, or does your tortoise seems to be straining to poop? If so, your tortoise may be dehydrated."

There are innumerable repetitions of this information scattered across the net. You may find it all in one place (like on my forum) or have to hunt for the pieces. These links are just the first few that came up on google. You can also make your own observations. If you notice gritty or lumpy urates, give your sav a couple mice liberally injected with water and the following day you should see white liquidy/pasty urates again.

If his pee is dilute, then so also should be his blood, i.e., not hyperuremic. Thus, the condition of his urates reflects his plasma hydration.

Note: a high protein diet produces plenty of urates. This is one reason to avoid feeding much concentrated protein to herbivores. It has been implicated in kidney failure of herbivores.

Thank you!

I'll take a look at these things a lil' later.

I appreciate it.

Why can't I hate you? Ha! Not that I really want to. There just seems to be something about you that makes me want to keep reaching out to you. I know one thing, you're about a persistent lil' rascal. LOL!

Have a good one!
HH
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It is said that 1 out of every 4 people are mentally unbalanced. Think of your 3 closest friends, if they're normal, then it's you.