Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I just took the temperatures of my savs where they have been sleeping for hours, so their temperatures have stabilised for a long time.
Buzzy is 93F and Lilly is 94.5F
What are the temperatures of yours when they have been stable in one spot for a while?

Mine seek warmth when they get around 91F and seek a cool spot when they get to 95.5 or 96.
What are the temperatures your savs choose as their preferred range and how do their choices vary?

This may sound alien to you at this point, but given opportunities, my savannas will dig deep to sleep every night, by this I don’t mean in a regular borrow or under a stalk of boards, no they actually dig in loos dirt and sleep deep down, you cant see where they have digged as they are completely covered.
It doesn’t seem to matter if its 75f or 90f (they do produce heat) maybe safety and moisture is what they seek most?.

Many species will actually prefer this sleeping option to any other. Other species couldn’t care less and will sleep out in the open.

Ps. I don’t keep exanthematicus, however I keep its yellow cousin flavescens and they dig deep every night, so will albigularis when young.

Forgot to say, I don’t think your monitors are seeking the temps you mentioned, however I do think they need more options then you provide.

Please speak more about them producing heat.
I've also noticed that with the savs. It's entirely common to find them 10 degrees above ambient with nothing but digestion and metabolism providing the heat! But it seems to happen only after a meal. They sleep in a well insulated 'burrow' so they don't lose much heat they produce and can maintain it for many hours.

Monitors prefer whatever temps will allow them to acomplish whatever task they need to accomplish. I see mine wake up cool from resting underground with temps maybe 75-80. They bask to get going and hunt around untill I feed them. They bask again after feeding roam a bit, and rest in a cooler but not the coolest spot and so on and so forth. If they produce heat it is minimal and due to bodily functions. what's the point of even discussing this. They need an external heat source in order to regulate metabolic function period. They need a gradient, period. Try this on for size, Give them a basking area of around 150. If they don,t use it or only use it for very short periods, lower the temp. If they seem to always be basking, raise it a bit. This pseudoscientific mumbo jumbo is worthless bullarkey. If they start to get fat, give them more heat or less food or something besides some garbage about preferred temps. HOGWASH

Roger

I guess that means you don't know, then?
There really isn't any point in your discussing this if you don't.

Hello DWS,
You are correct! - And neither should Roger care and there is no point in discussing this... Many of us here are trying to provide our animals with the best possible husbandry that we can offer our monitors and provide them with great lives as monitors. We have little interest in the results of a house roaming experiment or making childrens videos with our lizards... Also, having been given proper husbandry, my savannahs are rivaling yours in length only they have a healthy wild looking profile- at 57 days in our care... No charts and graphs needed to explain that! Yesterday, after explaining to a petstore owner about what was wrong with his savannah enclosure I put my money where my mouth is and purchased the young obese lizard from the store- the owner is pretty cool and is making changes with the advice that I passed on to him (you know the good advice that varanid experts like FR speak of...). So as of now the monitor is in a proper set up and has begun a few normal behaviors like digging and eating crickets. But, I have this animal to reverse or figure if this serious health problem is reverseable longterm. - I would love to here what you know about this FR (even if you want to PM me when you have time from your busy schedule of keeping monitors healthy and hatching their babies out...)
DWS- I noticed that you have safe guarded yourself by acquiring no females- so you never have to prove your husbandry with reproduction... Also, Frank is right, your lizard will perish- I know from the past, and the detail that he described is EXACT- sad to watch... Your eyes will open when your lizards are closing for the last time- Mike

Are you asking if obesity is reversable? It depends, with young monitors, yes, althought, they may not have the same build. But without question, they can go not to lead decent productive lives.

Is it easy, NO, its very very hard, monitors are energy conservation devices. Every thing they do is to conserve energy. The more you try to cause a weight loss, them more the individual thinks its going to starve to death and behaviorally conserves.

Under these conditions, you can limit the ability to conserve(the low temps) and cause the monitors to keep a high metabolism(higher temps) But as with many things, there is risk.

Here where I live, if I have a fat monitor, I throw it outside in the summer(so hot a water buffalo melted right in the road) And cut way back on food. After a summer or two of that, its slim. In areas of cool weather, it would be very hard.

Again, young ones are easy as they are growing. Slow down the food and keep all other conditions the same(full range of temps) and they will grow long and thin from that point on.

Side bar, I do not think most folks understand just how efficient monitors are. I read what many folks feed and I cannot believe it. Do they think they are mammals and burn energy all the time?

My monitors are known for growing fast, breeding and multiclutching, yet, I feed much less then most. This confuses me.

I do understand how they grow, I do not have to overdo it. I know, if properly kept, they will reach sexual maturity in under a year(all species I have kept and that is a lot) The larger species may take 18 months. So I do not have to over feed. I already know what they will/can do. Good luck with your new ones, Cheers

Anything, you have two or three savs? or is it just that one(thats left) Two you say. WOW. You have had them a few months? What a revelation. They are growing for you(too fat) and now you think your the worlds expert.

Your the person that does not know.

You think talking about something solves it, wrong, it doesn't, you think citing bits and piecies from papers and articules makes it supports your lack of experience, your wrong again, it doesn't. Experience is gained after you do something, not after you read something and nod your head. You must understand that, to read is to become aware, to do is to gain actual experience. Heck, thats why they have lab classes and field work.

If you actually did research, you would find that most of those authors are just like you, they did nothing either. Oh, except babble.

Please grip this concept; theory, discussion, debate, do not effect your monitor, those who can win or appear to win, in those areas do not necessarily make good keepers. In fact, its been clearly expressed, that the world of varanid experts(the knowledge of) make really poor keepers(to much crap in their heads to actually do something)

There are and have been a few good keepers that wrote or published, including me, but sadly all the information in the world, right wrong or indifferent, does not make a good keeper. Its applied effort and decision making, plus elbow grease and cage building ability that makes good varanid keepers. It does not matter what you know, or think you know. Its what you apply thats important.

If you are smart, you go by results. If you were smart, you would understand that papers and internet and caresheets are only loose guides to hopefully help you and your monitor. They do not have or need to be right or work. But your monitor does have to work.

What makes you think your so special? Do you think others did not have lots of success before they lost their Savs(any species) Many many had good growth, then lost them. Are you one of them? you seem to want that.

I wonder, did you read anywhere that if you keep monitors poorly, they die right away? Because I missed that. Sadly for the monitors it takes a fairly long time for them to fail. That is testiment to their will to live.

Why you cause so much grief is, we see you coming, we have seen the likes of you before. In fact, you act very much like an academic. But then we have educated ourselves about academics. If you look up that word, it also means, your academic. That is, your not actually to be applied to the subject.

Another reason you cause such a fervor is, you show what you do is full of common begining keeper errors. I do fully understand, that I can do things wrong(by others standards) and have them work well or way better then what they are doing. So I will end with, I hope you do that, because from what I/we see, that fat obese monitor is going to need a miracle. Cheers

Frank, you are absolutely CORRECT. Back when we were young(a long,long time ago) we didn't have the internet, hell we wrote with chisels on rocks and we learned by trial and error. We were sucessfull because we watched the animals and acted accordingly. If its fat over a long period of time IT WILL DIE!! I know now why I don't usually post on these forums because it is an exercise in futility. In this age of information we read scientific papers and make a diagnosis without even using commen sense. I've traveled all over the world and let me tell you most Varanids like it HOT. Temps in some ares routinely reach well over 100 degrees all the time. This is my last responce. It doesn't take a PHD to know that if your lizard won't eat and might eat lizards you won't try because of paranoid fears about chemicals. The alternative is death. Likewise if its too fat cut back on food. I'm through. THEY CALL IT COMMON SENSE BUT IT AIN'T VERY COMMON. aLL THE BEST....TOM CRUTCHFIELD

Tom, Just a quick history. I used to go to Herptofauna whenever possible, bought herps from you (collected some that went to you...when there was legal field collecting), and back when there was you, petfarm, zooherp, ect...(Joe from the Shedd was also very helpful to a young enthusiast) I was well aware of the contributions you made to herpetoculture. My understanding was what we saw at the "store front" was the tip of the iceberg. You personally and "Fauna" associates were doing great things at home.

That being said I wrote response "off the cuff" about a bad expirience feeding wild caught. I quickly withdrew the response after thinking on it and reading your response and others with many more years. The next post was not meant to be some arguementative BS. At the time the forum was a bit dead and I was banking there might be a few of us that needed that made clearer. This place can be a great tool...granted there could be many better topics at times...all the more reason to have a wealth of knowledge to draw from.

Certainly would be a shame to lose valuble insight due to mis communication or one retarded question, Zak.

I just re read the original post.
You took the lizards temp?
Why would you do this? And how?
I have always just given my lizards a wide choice of temps to use. From 130 to 150 basking temps, air temps from 90 to mid 70's to nice cool deep burrows(which they dug).
The lizards know more of what they need than we ever will.
I "think" (I know dangerous thing)the key is to give them choices and allow them to choose.

Scott
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Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

When I take their temps, the animals have been in the same spot for a time so their temps are stable. The temp is taken using IR thermometer. The spot measured is under the armpit, unless otherwise stated. Logically, if the skin temp is above ambient, the heat for it must come from a yet warmer core.

I take the temps of the lizards so I can learn what their preferences are. I know the ambient temps, I know the basking spot temp those are not the animals' temps.
By measuring the lizards actual temps, I get a better idea of what they are about than I can possibly get by only measuring available temps.
Consider- the reason anybody wants a number to set ambient temps and basking temps is so the animal gets what he wants and needs.
Measuring the animal is a direct way of knowing what the animals are actually using. The better one knows what the animal wants and needs and uses, the better he can be provided for. For my part, I find it confusing why someone would be hypercritical about cage temps yet care nothing for what the animal's temps actually are.
Also, 'not needing to know' is always trumped by 'wanting to know'. It's a human characteristic.

When one investigates something he may learn something along the way that he didn't expect. I am hoping jobi will speak more about monitors generating their own heat because look at what one can find out as a side topic when one sticks his nose in and looks at actual temps:

Each of these measurements was taken after the animal had been lying in one spot for several hours (3 to 10 hours) so their temperatures would be stabilised. Do you notice anything interesting?

By measuring the lizards actual temps, I get a better idea of what they are about than I can possibly get by only measuring available temps.

Yes, but these animals are not supposed to use one temperature all of the time. For instance, if food has not been around for a while, the animal will seek cooler conditions to slow down their metabolism and thus conserve energy. But, right after a feeding, my monitors will often bask directly under the light at 130-160 degrees, particularly the younger growing ones.

Consider- the reason anybody wants a number to set ambient temps and basking temps is so the animal gets what he wants and needs.

Sure, but it is so much easier to just provide a wide range than trying to narrow it to what some thermometer reads. This is particularly true because I am sure their preferences vary, both per individual and under different conditions. They will use different temps to do different things.

For my part, I find it confusing why someone would be hypercritical about cage temps yet care nothing for what the animal's temps actually are.

It simply does not matter to most who provide a wide range. Our animals have every kind of temperature they need and possibly more, and there is no need to try and narrow it. Also, I try and go by how my animal acts behaviorally under certain conditions (what is referred to as reading or listenting to my animals) than by what some thermometer says.

Also, 'not needing to know' is always trumped by 'wanting to know'. It's a human characteristic.

Actually, I do not care or need to know these things.

Cheers,
Ryan
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There are three kinds of people in this world: people who can count and people who can't.

These animals do not bask to reach that specific temperature they are basking at. They are basking to reach their desired temperature much more quickly and efficiently. In the wild, being out in the open is dangerous for reptiles. So they try to bask in the quickest manner possible and yet still reach their desired temperature.

Cheers,
Ryan
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There are three kinds of people in this world: people who can count and people who can't.

Your only telling half the story. Your pointing out that their temps are above the ambient. But sadly, thats half the story, no wait, much less then half. When the temps are high, their temps are lower then the air temps. We see this in nature(field studies) nothing new here.

What your again missing is context, the actual temps they use are based on task. They have many many tasks, and each uses a different temp range.

Also, another thing your totally missing is, each part of their body has a different temp. The head is normally different from the body and the body normally has a range of temps. As does the tail. Reptiles have many unique abilities when it comes to temperature regulation.

Also, armpit temps are not considered useful in any way. Cloacal and oral are normally taken. Both are internal, not external. If your going for casual external temps, get yourself an infrared heat gun. You can do lots with one of those.

As I have said many times, the graphs you put up are worthless. AS you can make them say anything you want. And you do. When I look at that graph, I see your monitors are not hot enough, as they are constantly above the air temps. That means they are heat sinking. They absorb heat and are retaining it above the air temps. If the air temps were hot enough, they would not have to do that. In fact, most of their lifes are suppose to be in the opposite area, they are suppose to be trying to keep their temps lower then the ambient. Hence your fat monitor.

When I got into monitors, I build a test cage(outside, 20 by 20 by 10 high) and set it up exactly how I saw that species in nature. What I learned was nothing to do with that. I learned temps. I learned that at times(their choosing) they spent time at temps so high it was near death. They commonly chose to gular flap(a known cooling technique) They would sit there for hours flapping away. Their choice.

What I thought was, weird, all keepers I know of, lower the temps if they see their charges gular flapping, yet, these animals seek and stay at the range for extented periods of time.

I also learned the opposite. I built underground warm areas, For when the temps dropped below freezing. A funny thing happend, when the temps dropped below freezing, they did not seek the warm burrows, they could give a crap about them. I would stuff them in the burrows in the evening. But in the night, they were back out under small rocks. They were fine. Of course, they are monitors and do not take extreme cold, but freezing was not a problem.

What I see in YOU is, you make these naive graphs and you make everything out of them. While they are a START, they are only a small part of the whole, a start. Yet, you go telling everyone how great you are. Your naive. you have no experience, to know what good is, muchless great. Sorry but that is the sad reality. Please ask yourself, how could you know so much, and have not done anything. Consider, thats in lew of folks that have many generations of successfull history. Yes, we have seen your kind before. If you were smart, you would just give it some time. Get some years under your belt. Cheers

Hi,

What concerns me is that you state that the temps where taken after the animal had been sitting in the same spot for three to ten hours (unless I mis-read your post). If that is true then I must ask why are they not moving? We all know that monitors are very active lizards, on the move and investigating constantly. I would be very concerned if my charges sat in the same spot for more than several minutes. If they are able to reach their operating temps, they would heat up quickly then be on the go.

You see, to many of us, this shows a glaring flaw in husbandry. If the lizard(s) must sit for that length of time before they acquire the heat to be able to move, they are being grossly undermetabolized. They are not being allowed to do, what monitors are designed to do.

To show all of these fancy graphs, tables and vids, but to not offer the minimum heat to allow the critter warm up and do its thing, is getting a bit ahead of yourself. Work on your basic husbandry skills and get your own house in order before you put yourself out there as an authority (which is what you are doing, whether you see it or not). Just a bit of friendly advice. Good luck.

Will

qwertyuiopasdfghjklzxcvbnm

Yeah, that's basically what you said.

When I kept savs, I dropped a probe as deep as I could in their favorite sleeping spot.
I got readings as low as 62 degrees.
That was a deep borrow and I am not sure just how far and deep it went.

Scott
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Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

>>I just took the temperatures of my savs where they have been sleeping for hours, so their temperatures have stabilised for a long time.
>>Buzzy is 93F and Lilly is 94.5F
>>What are the temperatures of yours when they have been stable in one spot for a while?
>>
>>Mine seek warmth when they get around 91F and seek a cool spot when they get to 95.5 or 96.
>>What are the temperatures your savs choose as their preferred range and how do their choices vary?
>>
>>

Sheer logic should tell you that if the monitors bask to those temps that the actually temps provided should be higher. If you are cold and want to warm up you don't drink 98.6* cocoa....it is more like 125* cocoa.
My savs bask in the morning until their belly temp is about mid ninetys (I have checked it with a temp gun when rearranging their enclosure) But the spot they sat in to do this is 120-140*
If their bellys are full they sit in that hot spot for longer than if they are just wandering. Otherwise they may be in a spot in the 90s or at the cooler end altogether. They don't pick one 'favorite' temp.
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Sonya

I'm not mean. You're just a sissy.
Happy Bunny

Thanks. Measurements of the animal's temperatures is what I hope to hear.

It is clear that he can raise his temperature faster if he has hotter basking provided.

You are saying that your sav will bask until his belly temp is mid 90s and then stop basking, yes?

In other words, when his belly temp reaches mid 90's he moves to avoid getting any hotter?

Were you clear that the temperature measurements I gave of 93 and 94.5 were the temperatures of the savs who had been sleeping undisturbed for at least 6 hours? I mean, those temps were not the ambient temperature of the room, but the actual animals, taken with IR thermometer under the armpit. They were in a bed and well insulated, so anywhere on the body gave the same temperature reading. If they were to reach 95.5 or so, they would get out of bed and seek a cooler spot. That's mid 90s, just like yours. (I deliberately failed to post the ambient temperature taken at the same time with the same thermometer.)

You are missing the point, it doesn’t matter what body temp your monitor has, and you don’t need to know this, neither do I or any keeper, we just need to provide options, add more heat and make sure your cage don’t lose moisture in the process.

I do need to know these things. If I don't know, I would be in the unenviable position of depending on someone else to tell me what to do- and hoping it was a person who actually did know. That's not a satisfactory life style for me.

Does your response, then, confirm that you have no information on this topic?

What about monitors generating heat? Did you have no information on this matter you introduced?

I do need to know these things. If I don't know, I would be in the unenviable position of depending on someone else to tell me what to do- and hoping it was a person who actually did know. That's not a satisfactory life style for me.

You do not need to know their body temperatures to care for them correctly, period. It just is not important. All you have to do, as jobi said, is provide options. That's it.

Also, what in the world does knowing your savs temperatures have to do with people telling you what to do? You word games confused me there.

Cheers,
Ryan
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There are three kinds of people in this world: people who can count and people who can't.

You don’t need to know because it will only confuse you even more, body temps are variable, you cant pin point your monitors body temp at any given point unless you freeze it, otherwise body temps will constantly vary.

All reptiles have a preferred temp zone, however this preferred zone in never stable, it could be 15min before sunset on a sunny day or 2 hours in the morning when cloudy? The point is they will seek other temps needed to perform a task, no keeper can say witch temps a monitor needs at any given time, an example we may think a monitor needs to bask after a large meal? Maybe so! But maybe not? Only the monitor really knows when its time for him to heat or cool off. Theirs too many variable for us to completely understand, in fact theirs far more we don’t know then we know at this time, however we understand the problem with your monitor, and we know how to avoid it, only you can decide if this is sound advise.

I don’t know how much heat a monitor can produce nor how long they can sustain this heat, but knowing this allows me to better understand the use of borrows, obviously a half log is a waste of energy for any monitor sleeping under it, I tight hide on the other hand may allow a higher metabolism for a longer time period, knowing this makes it unnecessary for me to know more, I only need to provide options, same applies to heat, I don’t need to know my lizards body heat, I only need to provide usable options.

You have been given good information from experienced keepers, yet you keep swimming against the current, try to follow us and make it easier on you and your monitor.

>>Thanks. Measurements of the animal's temperatures is what I hope to hear.
>>
>>It is clear that he can raise his temperature faster if he has hotter basking provided.
>>
>>You are saying that your sav will bask until his belly temp is mid 90s and then stop basking, yes?
>>
>>In other words, when his belly temp reaches mid 90's he moves to avoid getting any hotter?
>>
>>
>>Were you clear that the temperature measurements I gave of 93 and 94.5 were the temperatures of the savs who had been sleeping undisturbed for at least 6 hours? I mean, those temps were not the ambient temperature of the room, but the actual animals, taken with IR thermometer under the armpit. They were in a bed and well insulated, so anywhere on the body gave the same temperature reading. If they were to reach 95.5 or so, they would get out of bed and seek a cooler spot. That's mid 90s, just like yours. (I deliberately failed to post the ambient temperature taken at the same time with the same thermometer.)

No, mine didn't necessarily stop basking at that temp. It is just the temp I checked them at at that point. If they are digesting they may sit there all day at 130* and if not they may go looking around. I don't think 'surface' temps are gonna tell you as much as you think. The 95 on the outside will be irrelevant in a few minutes in cooler ambients. Core temps matter and hence basking in a hot hot spot to digest and bring up body functions.
I, being a mammal, maintain a constant internal temp but the IR is gonna read my skin temp at many different stages dependent on all sorts of things and places on my body. Rarely will it read me as being all that warm. That is why they use ear and rectal and oral thermometers.
Reptiles are an entirely different can of worms. You can try to make them into something they are not (mammalian) but it won't change them. Personally you may not care for what Frank is saying but you will find, when your monitors die if you have the courtesy to necropsy them, that he is right and you are frogging around with your monitor's lives.
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Sonya

I'm not mean. You're just a sissy.
Happy Bunny

Depends on what temp you refer to, ambient or surface. Mine use a broad range throughout the day and night which constantly changes from 68f-almost 90f ambients, and surface temps that range up to and including 195f or more. Mine also use a broad range of humidities throughout the day and night from 20% to almost 100%.
They need various temps and humidities for everything they do. During certain times of year my albigs have always used air temps that can go as low as 40f sometimes (outdoors), and this does not effect a healthy monitor that is designed to live with these temps, after all mine can warm right up afterwards.
I used to keep boscs for years, but lost interest, in fact I turned down so many free boscs because most keepers dont keep them long if they survive (I guess the novelty wore off).
See they dont have just one optimum or preferred temperature, they are ectotherms, this means they completely regulate their body functions and temperatures by their environment and what it offers.
Why is it that my monitors have air temps that are lower than yours and they are faster, more active, long and thin in shape? Why because they have the choice to do alot more when they choose to. Yes when I kept boscs they grew so fast and long, but never got fat, and my husbandry was not so good at the time I first kept them, obviously better than yours.
This is an example of a larger species but this gives an idea.
2 months old (yes she was CBB from Rob Faust)..

Somewhere I have the pictures of her with the same person (my wife) 10 months later to the day at one year old exactly, she was 5ft long. This one was taken about a year later or so, she was over 6ft long here, in fact in the picture she was 6ft 2 inches.
[img]http://shenderson1.photosite.com/~photos/tn/2290_1024.ts1100254370000.jpg[img]
About a year or so later again. She was 6ft 4 inches here.

65lbs of husky less than 2ft away.

Heres my little girl more recently at 6ft 6 inches long and around 33-34lbs.

Oh if you have any question as to size references, the picture with her and our bug husky, here is one with that same husky taken the same time with my wife who is in some of the other pictures.

Hes a bit bigger now also.
Hers another one I have, a flavi-argus, one of FRs artworks (created the hybrid).

I get newer pics sometime, here is one of 2 ackies I hatched right here in my own home from the parent ackies I kept. And yes I didnt follow anyones particular advice when it came to setting up the eggs, or setting their temps, humidities,or setting ventilation, I experimented, pretty good for 5 eggs that were not destroyed before I got to them. I had one of these 3 start to hatch a few days later, but it died trying to.
I had a few more clutches from that same female, none were incubated or dug up on time. Then the offspring started laying not 6 months later.
Ive never incubated one since.

I used to breed beardies, we still have a single male we kept, hes a big boy.
He is kept like his predecessors were, a broad range also, and he can jump over 4.5ft away in one leap. Hes over 2ft long.

Notice, long and thin, atheletic.