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Hi all. I have enjoyed reading this forum for a while. Thanks for all the input! I bought 3 small Nosy Be panthers from Kammerflage about 6 months ago, 1 male and 2 females. They have been doing quite well to this point. I mated one female with the male about 2 months ago. She has grown considerably and is noticably gravid. I have a bucket of soil in her enclosure and she has ignored it thus far. I was under the impression that they laid after about 4 weeks? I am concerned because she has stopped eating for about 3-4 days. What should I do? Has anyone else experienced this?
Thanks in advance.

first of all is she hanging around the bottom?
i am under the impression that 3-5 days bfore laying, females stop eating! i could be wrong tho, but thats mt understanding!
if you see her hanging arounf the soil, but not digging, just check on the soil moisture level! make sure it is moist enough for it to hold its shape!
hope this helps
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Jason
f2.pg.briefcase.yahoo.com/dank7oo
1.0 maroantsetra panther chameleon
0.2 dwarf panther chameleons
jsinger_jimt@hotmail.com

Send me your E-Mail address and I'll send you an explanation

>>Send me your E-Mail address and I'll send you an explanation

Why not share, Tyler?
Maybe some other reader will have this happen.
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Really Tyler, why so secretive???lol

>>>>Send me your E-Mail address and I'll send you an explanation
>>
>>Why not share, Tyler?
>>Maybe some other reader will have this happen.
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>>
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http://briefcase.yahoo.com/alanvines2002
2.5 Jacksonii Xantholophus (two red phase fem}
35 Jacksonii Xantholophus neonates
0.0.2 Phelsuma M. Grandis
2.3 Anolis C. with 3 neonates
1 neonate texas blue spiny

Kammerflage usually offers their panthers at 2.5 - 3 months of age. That would make them only 9 months old now.... and you mated her 2 months ago???

Correct?
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>>Kammerflage usually offers their panthers at 2.5 - 3 months of age. That would make them only 9 months old now.... and you mated her 2 months ago???
>>
>>Correct?
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Morgana, you are great, very intelligent lady
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http://briefcase.yahoo.com/alanvines2002
2.5 Jacksonii Xantholophus (two red phase fem}
35 Jacksonii Xantholophus neonates
0.0.2 Phelsuma M. Grandis
2.3 Anolis C. with 3 neonates
1 neonate texas blue spiny

Alan,

Almost everyone can do simple math!!
But I like to double check before assuming ....
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She was 4 months old when I got her, and we bought them in March. That would make her 8 months old at the time of breeding. I understood that was ok. The book Care and Breeding of Chameleons states that Panthers are usually sexually mature my 6-8 months. Did I make a mistake breeding her too early?

I am certainly not saying that you made a mistake!
I don't hold a gavel in my hand at any time during any day.

In the wild, I am absolutely certain that females breed between 6-8 months. The urge to propogate the species overpowers all rhyme or reason - including a long life.

As captive keepers, we aim for the best of all possibilities: propogation and a long, healthy life. So, the general concensus is that is is better to wait until female panthers are 11-12 months of age before breeding.

It is unfortunate that many books offer outdated information (we have that book, as well). But the research on chameleons really never ends... that is why it is good to join discussion groups and talk to other breeders.

If you have offered her the "bucket" for laying and she ignores it, then you should take her to the vet. They can xray her and decide if they should induce labor.
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Here are a couple of pics of her.

>>Here are a couple of pics of her.
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Are these pics current? Taken today? Yesterday?
This is not an "overdue gravid panther"
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another photo

>>another photo
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Nope..... no eggs bulging from the "south forty"
I suspect the breeding didn't take.

The "gravid" coloration is simply "non-receptive" coloration. In other words: "Leave me alone, Charlie"..!

Have you palpated her tummy at all? Oh - gosh, I am forgetting to ask other stuff. Is this your first breeding pair?

Oh.... nice looking gal, too BTW.
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Ok ok ok so you all want my tips? Ok here goes. From the pics it seems to me that she is gravid (someone said she didn't look like it) and if she's stopped eating, she is probably getting close to being ready to lay. If it has only been 3 or 4 days though, don't get too excited yet. History has led me to believe that from the DAY THE FEMALE GETS HER GRAVID COLORS (usually 5-9 days after breeding) it takes them 20-25 days to lay. Almost all of mine have been 22-23. This varies with each female, but usually each female will be pretty consistant with each clutch (So keep track of EVERYTHING). When they stop eating, I give it about a week OR if you see her crawling, she's probably ready to go. 95 percent of the time they do crawl, so probably don't assume she's not going to. When this happens, get a KITCHEN GARBAGE CAN (not a 5 gallon bucket like alot of people say) and fill it with 8 to 10 inches of moist POTTING SOIL (like Supersoil or just a basic clean perlite free potting soil). My garbage can is something like 3-4 feet tall and has a 18 inch diameter (maybe 30 gallon, I dunno). Pack the soil down and make sure it's firm. Don't pack it as hard as you can. Ok, now get a SMALL (like a foot to 18 inches long and pretty think) branch and wrap some kind of plastic vine around it, pretty heavily so she has a place to hide underneath that. Then lean this branch across the cage, with the top being just a few inches above the soil and the bottom of it dug into the soil a little bit to hold it in place. Now the important part. Get a clamp light and clip it to the top of the can with a 40W bulb in it (I use just a regular kitchen type bulb). Too hot of a bulb and it'll get pretty hot in there. When you've got that all ready to go, then get a piece of plywood or something flat and cover as much of the rest of the top of the container as you can. Leave a little opening for air, but they definately like their privacy. You should aim a small fan across the top of all this to get some airflow. Now WEIGH THE FEMALE (in grams) and place her in there in the evening and leave her alone. Give her about an hour with the light on and then turn it off. When you get up, turn her light and fan on and leave the room. From that point on, DO NOT look at her at all. This is the most important part of all this. When they see you look into the container, they get nervous and won't lay (do you want some stranger looking at you when you're about to have a baby? LOL). I usually leave her completely alone until that evening. Then maybe peek into the top and see what's going on. It's usually obvious to see if she has laid or not, both by her weight, and if she has dirt on her head or brown markings across the ridge on her head (dirt "stains". Also the first thing I do is weigh her. She should have dropped about a third or more of her weight (Veileds can be half). If she has laid (you'll know by weighing her), put her back in her normal cage, with a dripper going pretty fast, and offer her some fancy foods, like wax, super and silkworms. These seem to be my female's favorites. Let her eat all she can and all she wants for the next few weeks and make sure she's got her UVB, D3, calcium AND WATER. Back to the eggs, carefully start digging wherever you think she laid them. The easiest way to find it if you don't know where to start is to scratch off about 2 inches of dirt and feel for the soft spot underneath that. The rest of the dirt should be relatively compacted still and where she filled in her hole won't be. Use your hands and have another bucket or something to throw dirt into. Usually you can follow the "soft spot" right to the eggs. If the female had all her vitamins before this, the eggs should be bright white and you won't miss them. Have your egg container ready and put the eggs in nice rows in the vermiculite or whatever you're using (vermiculite should be at a 7 to 10 ratio, water to dry vermiculite). Don't worry about turning the eggs over right now unless they're a few days old. It won't hurt them yet to be moved a little. Now weigh the container and make a label for it saying the date they were laid, who's they are (female) and who she mated with to get them. Also, add the weight of the container on there somewhere. I incubate them in the mid 70's during the day and get them down in the mid or high 60's at night if you can. After about 2 months, take their daytime temperature up a few degrees. Get them developing. Re-weigh them every 2 weeks for the first 5 or 6 months. After 6 months, add a LITTLE water, about enough to make it an 8 to 10 ratio. After 6 months, you should start checking them evey day. Get your baby containers ready - 5 to 10 babies per container unless you wanna get fancy on us and use a 1 or 2 gallon container per baby. I use 10 gallon aquariums for about 1 month. I'm not gonna get into baby care (my fingers hurt). Ask ALANVINES, he seems to be getting good at raising babies (just don't ask him to sex them for you LOL LOL). Oh yeah, if all goes well and my advice works, set about 5 or so of them aside in another smaller container and meet me in San Diego October 18th and I'll trade you 5 Nosy Be eggs for 5 Nosy Be eggs. I've got a female I'm going to do all this with probably in the next few days (mine quit eating about 4 days ago). GOOD LUCK! Shoot any more questions at me.
-Tyler Stewart

Tyler,

Very good tips and advice. Really... no kidding.

One glitch - not all "first timers" act the same.
A fellow breeder has a panther female that is just now laying from being bred 97 days ago. She wasn't sure if she was gravid, so she had her xrayed.... very preggo! But she wouldn't lay the eggs.

I have seen about 60-80 pregnant panthers in the last couple of years - and the one in the picture doesn't look ready to lay if she is gravid. True, her coloration looks gravid - but some females get that color because of being mated - and never lay eggs. Then you have the occassional panther that gets blue, orange and other brighter colors - even though she has been mated twice! Also, inevitably, the females get round tummies... and those 2 pictures did not show signs of that. That is why I said it did not appear she was "overdue"

The best avenue - is to have a vet check the panther. This will eliminate doubt and provide insight as to "when she should be laying. It is always better to be "safe than sorry"

Just my $.02
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BPArmstrong, try the things I wrote about. In the meantime, I'll post a picture of one of my Nosy Be females that I took a day before she laid 34 eggs. She doesn't nessesarily look gravid (besides her colors) but she laid. Give her a shot in an egg laying container and let us know. If she doesn't lay, take her to get checked out by a vet (if you have one that knows what he or she is talking about, and you've got 100 bucks to spend on it) or wait 2 days and try her again in the egg laying container. Let us all know what happens.
-Tyler Stewart

Well, I've got 28 eggs and you guys to thank for it. Thanks especially to the long post from Tyler. I've got them in vermiculite now. Now for the waiting game...
I actually put her in a 3 gallon bucket that evening with some dirt in it and she went to town. Everything went well as far as I can guess. It was after about 10 weeks! My buddy and I were thinking she may have retained the sperm and become fertilized after the fact.
Now I have another female I need to breed. I will take Morgana's advice and wait until she is a little older. I would love to trade with any of you who are looking to swap panthers.
Tyler, send me an email and maybe we can do an egg exchange, bena@uccu.com

Thanks again everyone!