Reptile & Amphibian Forums

.....these breeders that are posting albino thayeri for sale everywhere and not even mentioning that they are hybrids?

I only know of one true albino thayeri ever produced...I don't even think it made it to adulthood. (Joe Forks help me out here).

Just a litte fed up looking at websites and classifieds that state they have albino thayeri.......
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

Yeah that is irritating. I've seen the same thing with the Albino Pueblan Milks as well. Makes me wonder how many of the people offering them for sale actually know that they aren't genuine?

Not really sure what we can do about it, just wanted to voice my agreement with you!
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Aubrey Ross

©
www.SlipstreamSerpents.com

I have found the best way to handle it is to email them personally and ask them to clarify what they mean by albino thayeri, I ask them what percentage of thayeri are in them and could they make the add more specific.
But I found out that even though the add is misleading it not reason to pull them. Shannon has alot of info he can share on the albino thayeri that was produced he had sent me a pic of it a couple of years ago.
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Michelle
All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful:
The Lord God made them all.

My opinion on the whole situation is, just make sure you represent your animals honestly, after time people will be able to tell who has the real deal and who doesnt. and with the whole morph or cross thing, it will become to apparent over time that everybody will go after the pure stuff because it is going to be the only pretty stuff out there, just my opinion. also a registry would be a great idea.

one example, and again my own opinion, there is a new Ball morph out there called the " spinner blast" its drab colorless no pattern, it just isnt an attractive snake (IMO), i think with all the inbreeding and mixing, the same thing will happen when you mix all your finger paints together, a poopie brown color.

Adam

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"Turn Left At Next Election"

>>My opinion on the whole situation is, just make sure you represent your animals honestly, after time people will be able to tell who has the real deal and who doesnt. and with the whole morph or cross thing, it will become to apparent over time that everybody will go after the pure stuff because it is going to be the only pretty stuff out there, just my opinion. also a registry would be a great idea.

Yeah....but a newbie will buy these misrepresented snakes and think they are 100% thayeri. When they produce offspring they will try to pass them off as the real deal and will not be able to support their belief......
Now...I believe when one of us 'pure', 100% thayeri breeders really produce an albino no one will believe that it is 100% thayeri.
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

Same thing happened in the cornsnake forum not too long ago. Someone asked what they should breed their Jungle Corn to and make something cool. Everyone told them it was a cal-king X Corn cross. The breeder never told them that it was a hybrid.. so they thought they had something "cool"
~kin
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~Sober Serpents~
www.freewebs.com/soberserpents
Corns, Creamsicles, A Black Rat, A pair of Leucistic Black Rat X Leucistic Texas Rat Intergrades, Thayeri, Cal Kings, A Jungle Corn, Ball Pythons, Leopard Geckos, Green Anoles, 2 Snapping Turtles, a White Cheeked Mud Turtle, an Eastern Box Turtle, a Bearded Dragon, an Adult Rescue Iguana, and A Baby Iguana

>>Same thing happened in the cornsnake forum not too long ago. Someone asked what they should breed their Jungle Corn to and make something cool. Everyone told them it was a cal-king X Corn cross. The breeder never told them that it was a hybrid.. so they thought they had something "cool"
>>~kin

Perfect example......
But...I do think some hybrids are "cool."
I think representing correctly is the only key to keep our captive collections as "pure" as we think they are.
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

There are people with the mindset to make a hybrid in order to "import" a gene like amel into a species and then backcross it a time or two to make something that looks like a pure albino of that desired species.

It seems like some people would like to make an albino thayeri or alterna this way, and they never realize that you can never take a hyrbid line and backcross it enough to make it non-hybrid again.

These are the people I worry about, they tend to miss-inform their buyers and they in turn relay that information because that is what they were led to believe.

Lance
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

I think that if anybody on this forum produced an amel thayeri, they would question their own stock, unless they are absolutely sure of their gene lines, lets say somebody produced an albino from a pair from Vivid snakes, or Dan V snakes, I would lean towards it being genuine, but still with all the false out there, it would make you second guess, even though the great true genetics are there. the only way I wouldnt second guess it is if they bought these snakes directly from the breeder and had documentaion to prove it.

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"Turn Left At Next Election"

>>I have found the best way to handle it is to email them personally and ask them to clarify what they mean by albino thayeri, I ask them what percentage of thayeri are in them and could they make the add more specific.

Well,
I suggested kindly and.....
That worked well.....The classified poster I was referring to said they would clarify the ad....
Cool...
Thanks,
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

You are welcome, been fighting this one for years now...lol
Where ever Joe is he knows what i mean..lol
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Michelle
All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful:
The Lord God made them all.

They have their on Hybrid forum. Maybe they can add a new category for the classified ads. Hybrids for sale. Easy.

>>They have their on Hybrid forum. Maybe they can add a new category for the classified ads. Hybrids for sale. Easy.
>>

That sounds like a great solution to me....I was thinking that myself.....LOL
If they convince themselves that their animals are hybrids and represent on a hybrid classified, then everyone buying and selling would know exactly what type of snake they are dealing with. It will be hard for some breeders to convince themselves though.....IMO
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

I see some are listed in other snakes, but not everyone follows that rule. I think they should be listed in other snakes or like you said have there own classifieds.
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Michelle
All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful:
The Lord God made them all.

i know what you mean. i am in NO way a HUGE thayeri-head but i was just talking to michelle about a girl i know who wants a pink or albino thayeri.... i tell her there is no such thing and she insists there is b/c the internet has photos.... why wont people do research before wanting things anymore?!?!?!?!?
~kin
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~Sober Serpents~
www.freewebs.com/soberserpents
Corns, Creamsicles, A Black Rat, A pair of Leucistic Black Rat X Leucistic Texas Rat Intergrades, Thayeri, Cal Kings, A Jungle Corn, Ball Pythons, Leopard Geckos, Green Anoles, 2 Snapping Turtles, a White Cheeked Mud Turtle, an Eastern Box Turtle, a Bearded Dragon, an Adult Rescue Iguana, and A Baby Iguana

There are a lot of people out there who would like to be able to just take sellers for their word but as we all know this is not reliable as there are people out there who don't mind deceiving others.
But I will have to say there are also some honest people with hybrid animals that represent them accordingly.
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Michelle
All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful:
The Lord God made them all.

a good portion of the thayeri in captivity, especially those that originated from an arc between a point north of Doctor arroyo, to a point north of Galeana, and an undetermined radius from these points, are naturally occurring hybrids (this is my opinion, and I do have a mountain of evidence to support it). At this point I wouldn't say if they are interspecific or intra-specific, but I'm leaning towards interspecific.

High levels of variability in a natural population can be indicative of hybridization. Additionally, there are several geographically isolated populations of both leonis (the geographic variant that evolved directly from mexicana mexicana), and something else that we might call thayeri (the annulata mimic from the eastern versant) that EXHIBIT STABLE PHENOTYPES in many geographic locations. The geography in these areas paints a pretty picture as to exactly how this all happened. The list of sympatric species at these locations support the theory that animals from various ecotones were brought together in these geographic locations where the (hybrids) occur. I'm pretty confident the current set of workers will support my theory here, but for CERTAIN we will see changes in the classification of the mexicana group snakes, especially the snakes we call thayeri right now.

Regardless, what we have is what we have and we still need to do everything possible to keep what we have as clean as possible. That includes politely e-mailing these folks and stressing true representation. I think proliferation of hybrids is here and nothing we can do about it except try to make certain every snake is accurately represented.

IMO the presence and proliferation of hybrids will eventually serve to increase the value of the snakes that were bred true by folks like ourselves. In the mean time due diligence is required as well as maintaining several true lines of breeding stock within one's own collection.

Those who truly know these snakes inside and out, natural history, ranges and phenotypes associated with those ranges, scale counts, and research provenance will be fine. Uneducated buyers and sellers are in a heap of trouble in this day and age.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

>>
>>High levels of variability in a natural population can be indicative of hybridization. Additionally, there are several geographically isolated populations of both leonis (the geographic variant that evolved directly from mexicana mexicana), and something else that we might call thayeri (the annulata mimic from the eastern versant) that EXHIBIT STABLE PHENOTYPES in many geographic locations. The geography in these areas paints a pretty picture as to exactly how this all happened. The list of sympatric species at these locations support the theory that animals from various ecotones were brought together in these geographic locations where the (hybrids) occur. I'm pretty confident the current set of workers will support my theory here, but for CERTAIN we will see changes in the classification of the mexicana group snakes, especially the snakes we call thayeri right now.

Great statement made above....
I have been a believer of this since I started breeding Mexicana. I believe the MSP mimics the coral or annulata and the leonis mimics banded rock rattlers or Mexmex. I always thought the 'milksnake' looking Mexmex intergraded with Ruthveni and the leonis thayeri intergraded with classic looking mexmex. Now could the geneflow of ruthveni travel across the range of the Mexmex? I dunno, but the amelanistic gene found in ruthveni could have possibly made it to some Mexmex and in turn to what we call thayeri.

I believe a similar thing is evident in the variability of alterna.

I do have one question though.....If geneflow is happening in the wild, wouldn't it be called intergration rather than hybridization? And are you stating that in order to preserve our thayeri should we be breeding MSPs to MSPs and Leonis to Leonis? We will lose some variability......

Again....Great Post Joe.
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

>>>>If geneflow is happening in the wild, wouldn't it be called intergration rather than hybridization?

Hybrids between different sub-species within a species are sometimes referred to as intra-specific hybrids, we more commonly refer to them as intergrades. My gut feeling is that at least one of the eastern versant kingsnakes will be elevated to species status resulting in inter-specific hybrids. But right now it looks like there is another player in this geographical area with status yet to be determined, and that complicates matters.

>>>>And are you stating that in order to preserve our thayeri should we be breeding MSPs to MSPs and Leonis to Leonis? We will lose some variability......

No, I don't think so, but maybe. Maybe that's where the thought of having many different lines within one's own collection comes into play. Really I just meant we should STILL be worried about having ruthveni or other subs in the mix, because even if what we have really are intergrades or hybrids, they are naturally occurring, for certain. So we should try to preserve what ever it is that we have.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

>>>>>>intergration rather than hybridization?

I see what you were getting at here. All Lampropeltine snakes are much closer related than our classification system would lead one to believe. In many instances arguing intergrade over hybrid or vice versa is an exercise in futility because the absolute definitions of the terms in no way reflect the relationships of the animal(s) these terms are used to describe.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

>>No, I don't think so, but maybe. Maybe that's where the thought of having many different lines within one's own collection comes into play. Really I just meant we should STILL be worried about having ruthveni or other subs in the mix, because even if what we have really are intergrades or hybrids, they are naturally occurring, for certain. So we should try to preserve what ever it is that we have.

Amen....I agree with you 110% Joe. We certainly do not want to go back to the 'lumping' days of the "Mixicana".......

Thanks for your replies Joe,
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

Joe,

Thanks man as this is an excellent post! For me there are two parallel "equations" that are occuring within this discussion and they are what happens in the wild (in-situ) and what happens in captivity (ex-situ) when comparing intra-specific/intergrade versus hybrid. In other words what do the animals do when left to their own devices in their natural environment as opposed to the vision of a human keeper in captivity (for what ever reason).

On the in-situ side of the equation, I am in 100% agreement with you for certain localities of the mexicana group. Over the past year and a half or so, I've seen too many "new" photos from those herpers that venture into the field (both past and present) and document what is actually there. Whether the correct terminology is intra-specific or intergrade can be debated (another subject of discussion altogether) but they are intergrades to me. Having said that, just as with those original Brooks Canal "Brooksi" with their unique phenotype...This same "condition" must also exist in-situ with the leonis/thayeri. In other words, there must be pockets (regardless of origins and/or physiogeographic barriers) in which "pure" (for lack of a better term) examples of the phenotype(s) exist.

On the ex-situ side of the equation, IMO it's the vision (breeding objectives) of the human keeper that decides on the pairing of each adult pair in captivity and then how those porgeny are represented to others. I've seen some "mad science" in some respects that IMO is just that...MAD SCIENCE! On the other hand, some folks go far and away in their attempt to track what they have in an attmept to keep it together so to speak for what ever that's worth...

So what are we left with? This is America and we're still reasonably "free" to follow our own "vision" regarding our breeding objectives...It's what happens when it leaves the collection (representation) that makes the difference ex-situ. The in-situ discussion is being driven by folks both past and present in an attempt to figure out just what is what in nature and document it for all of us to appreciate their "passion" for what they are doing for all of us...I personally am very appreciative of you "old timers" that have kept that fire lit for us "johnny-come-lately's" find that light in the darkness...

My 10 cents worth is...

1) in-situ = nature's selection on the basis of a myriad of factors wihtin their natural environment

2) ex-situ = man's selection on the basis of breeding objectives (i.e. vision)

...that results in intra-specific/intergrade (in-situ) versus hybridization in ex-situ captivity.

Again, GREAT POST JOE!!!!!!!!!!!!

Later,
Jim.

PS: Can you talk about the future taxonomic discussion or is that for another day? Just wondering...

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CSRAJim

>>On the ex-situ side of the equation, IMO it's the vision (breeding objectives) of the human keeper that decides on the pairing of each adult pair in captivity and then how those porgeny are represented to others. I've seen some "mad science" in some respects that IMO is just that...MAD SCIENCE! On the other hand, some folks go far and away in their attempt to track what they have in an attmept to keep it together so to speak for what ever that's worth...

Even selective propagation and line breeding can produce 'different' appearing neonates not resembling founding stock that was kept pure and well preserved back to their capture.

Good post as well Jim.
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

John,

Yep, that does occur as well but, I didn't want to write a book about the topic...In my own experience, 1:2:1 has demonstrated what you said and becuase I know what some of the grandparents look like phenotypically, I've seen this with my own eyes...

And this is where things can get "problematic" with the ex-situ "hybridization" process when something hatches that looks "different" and questions then arise...

Having said that, I believe that "pure" genetics DO exist in captivity but these days it takes a lot of work chasing "chains-of-custody" (i.e. bloodlines) in order to trace the "vision" of former keepers that have produced what we see today...This takes a lot of effort to do and there are the obvious "minefields" that I sometimes step into but, it's worth the effort for me...Just my opinion...

Later,
Jim.

PS: This one looks like the grandfather from 1998...And there were no MSP in this clutch. All leonis...

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CSRAJim

>>It's what happens when it leaves the collection (representation) that makes the difference ex-situ. The in-situ discussion is being driven by folks both past and present in an attempt to figure out just what is what in nature and document it for all of us to appreciate their "passion" for what they are doing for all of us.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>

That sums it up nicely Jim.

>>>>>PS: Can you talk about the future taxonomic discussion or is that for another day? Just wondering...

Jim,
These opinions are of my own accord. So if the workers disagree or present other evidence I'll have to eat my words, or prove my theory myself. It is based on part some of the workers initial mtDNA sequences, as well as field experience, field experiences of others, gestalt, geography, and scouring museums for specimens. There are still many questions, and many surprises I'm sure.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Joe,

Thanks for keeping the flame lit...As dim as it seems, it was easy for me to find as it was just what I was looking for...Ha! Ha!

Later,
Jim.

PS: Here's to candle lights from 1944 and who wrote about it and who kept specimen photo(s) for us "johnny-come-lately's" my friend...

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CSRAJim

Interesting discussion. I would like to add a few comments, but prefer to make them in one message instead of several short ones.

1) Albino thayeri etc. advertising - I do not like it too (in spite of fact that one of my snake trait I keep is Pastel King (ruthveni x thayeri, but actually almost thayeri (over 90%))), it makes me crazy.. the same is albino "greeri", hypo "thayeri" advertisement etc. etc. If someone breed or create hybrids, he/she should be proud of it and not hiding it, otherwise why he/she do that? (not mentioning financial reasons, for which is quite normal even to murder, so why not to breed hybrids which is sort of legal outside of this forum

2) Solution - Have separate section for advertising hybrids? I do not think so because

i) crosses between kings are still kings so they belong there

ii) it will not solve anything outside this site (which is quite known, but not the only one)

Where I see way is :

i] To have list of known existing and real/pure morphs of each king's site. Some oficial one, why not in here.

ii] To patiently contact breeders and informing them about false info (sometimes it's done because of lack of info and not on purpose)

But of course.. not easy...

Joe F. : My only comment is thumb up. Nice to read your messages.
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Radim Soukup
www.kingsnake.cz
Czech Republic, EU

I have let this one stew for a while, and it is something I have thought about prior to this thread as well.

The only "solution" I see for the situation as it is now is to have the breeder represent his stock as accurately as they can. After that the buyer can either take it or leave it.

There really is no "fix" anymore. The only thing that would come close is if collection of wild stock was open again and a program of locality based records / breeding took place along with what we have now as "generics".

However with what I have seen in the Alterna locality circles that would just provide different topics to argue about. How far apart were they, are you sure it came from such and so, did you get your records / data mixed up, or I just do not believe you.... etc....

Lance
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

I agree with you 100%.....I am not out to try and stop people from hybridizing. I just rather these breeders REPRESENT correctly. This is why I ONLY buy from people I know and trust. I had to gain lots of trust from the people who bought my snakes in the late 90s and earlier this decade.....I hope to retain or continue such trust.

And...I do believe a lot of our mexicana are generics and that selective propagation and line breeding has created many nicer looking mexicana than what you would find in the wild.

In the infancy of mexicana herp culture....Mexicana were certainly cross bred. I remember seeing L.m.m. labeled as Mexican Variable Kingsnakes-"Mexicana Phase." Breeders bred these "Mexicana Phase" variable kings to a "Leonis Phase" variable kings and so on and so forth......Thus came about the infamous "Mixicana" of the 1970s and 1980s. What did Gebhart, Vermilya, Sipery, Blodie, Cherry, Price, Applegate and Kardon breed? We do not really know, but we trust that they kept their sub species separate. And...We trust them as breeders and continue to purchase Mexicana from them or from their stock.

And...I dunno....after seeing some of Robert Hansen's field shots of thayeri I think there are some real nice ones in the wild that don't look so 'wild'.
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

I would suggest a nice polite email asking for clarification. After awhile they'll get that the message and begin posting them as pastel kings.
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Darwin Rocks!

>>I would suggest a nice polite email asking for clarification. After awhile they'll get that the message and begin posting them as pastel kings.

You are correct Tony....That is what I did and it worked. The one I am referring to advertised them as hybrid thayeri the next time they posted the classified ad........
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

Yep, I did the same and it worked for good too.

Sometimes just breeders forget to present it properly because they do not understand it as important. One polite mail is quite enough for them not to forget present it properly next time.

One of my Pastel Kings attached

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Radim Soukup
www.kingsnake.cz
Czech Republic, EU

I don't think that its so much that they forget to represent them properly as I think some just take it for granted that everyone understands what these are.
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Darwin Rocks!