Reptile & Amphibian Forums

hello, i am wondering if a hatchling is raised on a bare minimum "maintenance" diet for a year or 2 will it still reach a large adult size if switched to a normal feeding schedule.

the reason i'm is my female 06' hypo d.d. that i purchased. i prefer to get hatchlings and raise them up myself. in this case i wanted a female the same age as my male. so, i bought her. she is more than a ft shorter and much thinner than the male.

i just thought about this the other day. don't pits have the highest growth rate for the first 2 yrs? do you think i got a female that will never reach sexual maturity because of her lack of groth the first 2 yrs, or will she be stunted for life and never reach her full potential?

has anyone ever experienced this and what were the results? thanks...

jonathan

Im not sure what you mean about the "highest growth rate in 2 years" but pits fall miserably short in this department compared to other species (though they do grow rather fast). I have seen King cobra hatchlings easily reach 7-8 ft in their first year and there are many other notable elapids that do as well.

From everything I have read (ive only been keeping neos from the deppei complex for about 4 months now) deppei seem to grow slower then other pits. This makes sense considering their cooler climates as generally higher elevation, cooler climant snakes grow slower and take longer to reach sexual maturity.

I will let the experts field this one in regards to growth rates.

just to clarify a little, my female is less aprox. 2 1/2 ft. i've several pits including several i've raised reach that size at a year let alone 2 yrs by just feeding them on a regular basis = 1 or 2 small items every 5 days.

in my limited experience i have seen them grow at a faster rate their first couple years and then slow down. i had never purchased a snake that was a couple years old before.

will having such a slow start permenantly stunt her growth? will she reach the size needed to breed? i guess is the bottom line. i am just a hobbyist, but i like to get pairs with the hope that they will eventually produce some offpring of their own. know what i mean? thanks...

jonathan

You have seen pits reach 7 to 8 ft, just about their maximum size (I know some are reported of reaching 9 but I have never seen any pit this large. If you have pics I woulod ti see them ) in their first year on a normal feeding schedual? Im not saying that youre wrong but I find that very hard to belive.

BTW, kings can be upwards of 14 ft by their second year and Black mambas 8-10 so still, pits fall short in this category by alot. Personaly the most I have had a pit grow in one year was just under 6 but I definatelhy am not saying tahts what I would consider the norm. Thats just my own personaly experince which fall miserably short compared to most here.

I see what you are saying, but a King is going to max out at what, 15 feet?

So you have to think, ok, 7.5 feet in the first year is half max size. You need to consider the max size when comparing growth rates.

Its like saying, "oh yea this garter is a slow grower, only hit 2 foot in the first year..."

Ok, well, lets use forest cobras then. Individuals obtaining 7 ft in length by their first year is rather common and can get 9 ft by their second. The max to my knowledge is 10 ft. Also, Black mambas, who max out at 11 can easily reach the 7-8 ft mark in their first year to year and 1/2 as well and this is witrhout powering feeding.

I would be willing to bet that many of the Cribos and Indigos can also beat most pits though I have zero experince with them.

As impressive as pituophis is they simply fall short to large elapids in the growth rate department. Elapids have much higer motabilisms and eat more frequently then any snake I have ever seen hands down. Even as adults forest cobras eat every 5-7 days and I have seen them poop the follwoing day after a meal. There is simply no comparison

Here is my take on this subject.

I now have 3 deppei and one jani, and every breeder I have purchased from have all said the same things, in one way or another, when I asked this same question about growth rates in deppei. While some deppei may grow " normal " compared to other pines, some may take up to at least 5 years to be full or mature adults. Sometimes they can have the potential to be slow growers. Not all of course, but some can.

Deppei are also prone to regurge, especially in the first year, and they like to be in cooler temps. Food items should be smaller than say what you would feed a bull or bigger pine. I was told by many breeders that they fed their baby deppei not every 7 days but every 8 or 9 or even 10 days in their first year, due to them being prone to regurge. I lost my first deppei due to a powerful regurge. After that, the next one I got, which was the most beautiful baby deppei I had seen to date, as it was born with its' adult colors, I made sure that I would not feed it anything I felt would be too big. Looking back, I probably was a little TOO careful, but nevertheless, the snake seems fine, eats great, does grow, but I am also experiencing slow growth in him as well. He is four years old, and is at least 3 1/2 feet. Right now, I am experiencing somewhat of a good growth spurt with him though, as he sheds more frequently than some others, and is growing steadily now. But like yourself, I did experience slow growth the first few years with him. Now, whether that was my doing in feeding smaller meals or him just being a slow grower, I am not sure, but I just have to also go by what I was told by those with more experience than myself with deppei. My two year old hypo deppei is the same size as yours as well, being at least 2 1/2 feet.

One thing you have to remember is that each snake is an individual, and that plays a part in its' individual growth. Some deppei will grow fast, and some, like our examples, do grow slower.

Also, another thing that may play an important part in the size and growth factor of deppei is this one simple thing, and that is the size they are when they are born. In my experience with checking out babies at shows, and from what breeders have told me, most of the time, baby deppei are smaller than other pits, like northern or southern pines, Tx. bulls, etc., when they are born. In that aspect, if they are smaller at birth, the possibility of them taking longer to get the same size as other pits may be a real factor. To me, that only makes sense.

Now, whether or not if they are slow growers or if they didn't grow a lot in their first few years, and if that makes a difference in them reaching breeding size in the future, my first thought would be no, it shouldn't make a difference, but I honestly could be wrong, as again, snakes are individuals. I have had great success though in buying or receiving, for example, older adult pits, and having them grow significantly more after receiving them. One example, my hypo northern pine, was 4 1/2 feet when I got him, and very stocky. He was, I believe, 4-5 years old ( Meltzer, correct me if I am wrong! ) when I got him, and he is now at least 6 feet. Same with my white bull. He was four feet when I got him, and now is between 6 and 7 feet.

So, that is my take, and I hope this helps! Anyone else that has deppei or breeds deppei, please chime in!! I love learning about them!!

Billy

-----
Genesis 1:1

Hey Billy, that was a great bunch of info, thanks.

I've have one '07 Deppei which was about normal size for a 2 month old when I got him in September '07...he's now between 3 1/2 and 4 feet and very heavy. It is pretty fugly still for a Deppei, wondering if it will ever go "looker".

Just got me another '08 which was hatched in July and is very slight, almost runt-ish. It's feeding ok but I wouldn't say it is an aggressive as a feeder. I suspect it will be a "slow grower" unfortunately but will hopefully color-up well.

That's my "chime in".

Would love to see pics of the one you said was adult colored as a juv.

Cheers,
Brad

thanks for the info and feedback billy and brad. sorry, but the other guys kind of lost me when the cobras came in...

i've also heard that they are slow growers from some people also. maybe it does just depend on the individual critter. i supose it's kind of a toss. if you play it safe, the snake grows slower and possibly not as large. if you feed at a faster pace, you risk running into regurge problems. although my male is growing like a champ. just got him out and he's a good 4ft. at 2 yrs. pounds every mouse in sight and never has regurged. i've only had him about a year now but he has double in length and thickness since i got him.
sorry to hear about the fugly deppei brad i bet he is still nice to look at. they are some very nice herps, imo.

take care...

jonathan

I am not sure if the maintenance diet the breeders use will effect their ultimate size, but I got my 07/06 male less than a year ago. He was smallish at about 22 inches and 41 grams. I got him in October last year so that was his size at 15 months.

Anyway, he is now 48 inches and 484 grams. Kind of a fugly one too, but I like his personality...a bit feisty you could say.

I am attaching my feeding and growth data so you can have some idea of my Deppei's history. He is looking to be tapering off of his growth curve. That could be from a long duration between feedings during his last shed cycle, or it could be that his growth rate is slowing down...time will tell.

Here is the link:
.

Deppei_Deppei_Data

you have kept very good records. thanks for sharing.

i was actually not trying to knock on anyone for the way the feed there snakes. i am just a hobbyist and am more than happy to feed mine all that they want as long as they stay healthy and it doesn't have any negative effects. i might feel differently if i had a very large #. i am actually just trying to figure out long term effects on feeding schedule to see if it would be a better idea to buy hatchlings, which i prefer to do anyway.

anyway, thanks for sharing and still am very open to anyone elses experience with the feeding thing. thanks....

jonathan

Impressive record keeping!!! Love the graph. Interesting how both the weight and length gains have been pretty linear but the length is somewhat steeper as the weight gain sags a bit until about the 4 foot mark, and now it looks like weight gaining on length in terms of relative gain....kind of like most people as the reach maturity ...very very cool stuff. Sure hope you keep us updated!

Would love to see some pics of your "fugly" animal. We see too few pics of P. d. d and the only good looking ones I've seen have been by one breeder. I'm beginning to think those are exceptional, but hoping I'm wrong.

btw, it's not so much as mine is really fugly, it's just that it's not becoming anything like the form's potential. Still an impressive snake. Very shy and a bit jumpy but starting to calm down a bit...never nippy though.