Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Why is it that so many people seek medical advice for serious problems on these forums? What's even worse is when I see these same questions posted on yahoo groups where the first 5 responses are along the lines of "ewwwww snakes you should kill it it eats mice and they are people too". Isn't it obvious sometimes that a vet is needed? I mean seriously, if you woke up one morning and and there was this weird, hard, softball-sized lump between your skin and your ribcage would you ask people on a web forum about it in an attempt to get out of going to the doctor? If your infant child stopped eating one day and became lethargic, would you seek OUR advice above that of a doctor? Why are you all afraid of going to the vet? Is it the money? In my honest opinion, if you don't want to spend some money taking your animals to a vet or you cannot afford to do so, you probably shouldn't have the animals in question to begin with. Yes, there are some problems out there, even feeding ones, that can be answered on these forums, but I look at threads like the one below this and I think to myself, "Jeeze, isn't it kind of obvious that animal NEEDS to be taken to a vet?". If it seems serious, then spending several days waiting for replies from people who can't properly examine your animal and who don't have the proper training to correctly diagnose the problem could cost you the precious time you need to save your snake's (or other animal) life. You brought the animal into your home, you owe it the time and money to make sure it lives a happy, healthy life.
Kiley

Bravo Kiley, I have wanted to say that exact same thing many times over.....

Wayne
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Regards,
Wayne A. Harvey

1.0.0 Ball Python - Python regius "Cane" Rescue
0.1.9 Eastern MilkSnake WC "Carmella" adult super sweet temperment (Eggs all hatched!)
1.3.13 Storeria dekayi Casper, Xena, Athena, Sharon & Kids
2.1.0 Thamnophis sirtalis - eastern Garters
0.0.1 Thamnophis HybridAlbino Checkered Normal eastern
2.0.0 Thamnophis sirtalis - eastern Garters (xtreme orange phase)
1.1.0 Thamnophis RADIX - Snow Hets
0.1.0 Thamnophis RADIX - Christmas Albino
0.0.1 Thamnophis sirtalis - Red Phase Eastern Garter red and white stripes
0.0.1 Thamnophis butleriButler's Garter Snake
0.0.4 Thamnophis proximus orariusCoastal Ribbons
0.0.16 Thamnophis sirtalis - newborn Eastern Garter babies 7/11/08
0.0.17 Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis HET Anerythristic Scott Felzer stock.
0.1.0 Thamnophis sirtalis Eastern Snow "Snowflake"
0.0.1 Thamnophis sirtalis infernalis California Red Sided (R.I.P. little guy)
1.2.0 Thamnophis pickeringi - Puget Sound Garter "Sky" (adult, Sky blue) 2 females recently aquired.
0.0.1 Nerodia sipedon - Water Snake - "Aqua" adult WC
0.1.0 Storeria occipitomaculata - Red Belly snake (Her children were raised & released)
0.0.1 Amelanistic Corn Snake "CY" Sub-adult CB
1.0.0. Pueblan Milk snake "Oreo" adult CB
1.0.0. ASIAN GREEN SNAKE 3' WC Cyclophiops major"Limon"
0.0.1. Savannah Monitor "CHOMPER" Growing fast!
1.1.3. Green Anole "Crystal" & "Chris" WC dropping eggs fast!
1.0.0. K9 "ACE" Black Cockapoo
0.2.0. Feline"Felix"(R.I.P. 4/27/08) "Kaja" & "Silver"
2.1.0. calico RATS
2.4.?? Mice - Feeder farm - Crickets / fish
More herps than I could ever list out back on the land.

Kiley,....

Yes, those very same thoughts have gone through my head many countless times as well. I will never understand this either.

Your post seems worthy of copying, pasting and continuously applying it to MANY,MANY future posts that we see on a constant basis.

Don't feel alone here, I am constantly reminded of one of my favorite analogies on a daily basis on these forums......"common sense,......it seems it's really NOT so common".

I've thought many times in the past about why people do the things that they do in regards to snakes, and have come to the conclusion that since snakes are incapable of showing any expression whatsoever, can't blink, smile, frown, can't cry, or wimper,or make any noise at ALL other than having respiratory problems,....it seems like people are much more willing to let them just sit in their cage and be ignored, sometimes no matter how obviously serious things get, many times to the point of just silently withering away until dying.........oh! yeah, let's not forget the fact that it might just cost a few bucks too!...........very sad indeed.

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

My reason for replying is only to try to encourage a well-rounded view. If you get to a point that you disagree with me on, please don't tune me out, continue on with an open mind and hear me out.

Don't take anything as "my view" unless I actually state that it is. I trying to be fair-minded.

There are some people that will rush their kids to the emergency room with a slight fever or a paper cut. There are some people that honestly believe that their child's 104-degree fever will eventually get better on it's own. even though it's been that high for more than 24hrs.

There are some people that are somewhere in between those two groups.

Some situations are more serious than others. The problem is that its in the eyes of the beholder. Insert Doug's analogy here: ......"common sense,......it seems it's really NOT so common".

I can't help but feel that some people just flat out don't realize how serious or minor the situation actually is. Dictionary.com gives the meaning of "commonsense" as: "sound practical judgment that is independent of specialized knowledge, training, or the like; normal native intelligence."

What's hard to do sometimes is determining whether the person lacks commonsense or just doesn't care that much. Of course, those of us with commonsense tend to naturally equate the two, but is that right to do? I stand guilty as charged. I've done that a time or two (or three, or four,.....).

OK, I'll stop there on that before I get too dang philosophical.

Now, as for the statement, "In my honest opinion, if you don't want to spend some money taking your animals to a vet or you cannot afford to do so, you probably shouldn't have the animals in question to begin with." I respectively disagree.

Don't get me wrong, I know where you're coming from, what you mean, for the most part, and I do somehwat agree. However, most Vets require payment upon services. Hospitals don't. Very few people have enough money to pay for an emergency quadruple bypass. But we have insurance coverage for that. Not with animals, though.

Sometimes a person could have plenty of money when they first got into keeping animals but have since lost their jobs, homes and who knows what else. Being self-employed I'm on the financial rollercoaster. I couldn't dare get rid of, or reduce, my collection every time the economy slows down.

And to your credit, Kiley, I feel you did leave the door open for similar circumstances by saying, "you probably shouldn't have the animals...".

Please don't take that personal as I surely don't mean for it to be. I'm just trying to be as objective as I can.

Now, for my personal view. If I had a snake that had a small know suddenly appear on it's neck or chin I'd probably search the forums and inquire about it. Once that know continues to grow & disfigure the snake I'm calling a Vet & scheduling an appointment for ASAP. When I get there in person & show them the snake's condition I'll tell them I don't have money up front but give them the title of my truck if I need to for collateral.

Unforseen circumstances are the reason to establish a connection with a reputable reptile Vet soon after getting into reptile keeping. For a mere $45 you get your foot in the door & establish a good rapport with your Vet and his staff. They will be more willing to work with you in the future.

I can't help but feel that the bottom line is the fuzzy line that separates commonsense and "I don't care". That's actually kinda funny because my wife, the way she was raised, lacks commonsense in some areas and I'm forever saying that it shows she just doesn't care enough in those areas. (Let's not go there. Haha!!!)

Ya'll have a great day!
Mike
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

I'm a hillbilly, whaddya expect?

Replace "know" with "knot" -
Now, for my personal view. If I had a snake that had a small know (knot) suddenly appear on it's neck or chin I'd probably search the forums and inquire about it. Once that know (knot)continues to grow & disfigure the snake I'm calling a Vet & scheduling an appointment for ASAP.]

Later!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

I had a feeling you meant to say "knot"...

I can completely see where you are coming from and would add that my statement above is extremely generalized -- those here who have been keeping reptiles for a while or who have a reasonable understanding of how they are different from mammals are in a much better position to tell whether or not a problem needs immediate attention or if there might be something you can do on your own to fix it. I doubt too many of "these people" have taken the time to establish a relationship with a vet. Anyway... It's true that money comes and goes sometimes. Ok, all the time. One additional thing that really bothers me though is the mentality of "My pet only cost $20 and it costs $50 just to walk inside the vet's office. It just isn't worth it to me, I might as well just get another one..."

"It's true that money comes and goes sometimes. Ok, all the time."

With me, money comes "sometimes" but goes "all the time". Ha! Ha!

"My pet only cost $20 and it costs $50 just to walk inside the vet's office...."

Yeah, that doesn't sit too well with me, either. However, in another attempt to be fair-minded I wonder if it could be related to a type of "farm mentality". Yes & no, I think. Some people just don't hold their pets to as high of regard as others.

I've got a w/c corn that I wouldn't hesitate to take to the Vet under those circumstances.

Thanks for the discussion! I'm gald you said something about this. Even though it may be uncomfortable to some I still think it's something that really needs to be said & considered.

Now, for one of my analogies to go with Doug's:
A commonsense view of a nonsense world."

Later!
Mike
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

In one respect I have to be very understanding of situations that may be outside of someones control.

You have a corn snake, there is 200 frozen mice in the freezer and life is good, it's late September and all is well but it's getting colder out at night, so you call and have your fuel oil or LP tanks topped off and are currently flat broke till next Friday, but Sunday morning you notice something wrong,

It's out of your hands about the money, so Friday it will have to be, so on Sunday evening your worried, why not post and ask around??? I would say encourage it!

Just because someone is broke for a few days, does not necessarily mean they are a bad pet owner.
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Regards,
Wayne A. Harvey

1.0.0 Ball Python - Python regius "Cane" Rescue
0.1.9 Eastern MilkSnake WC "Carmella" adult super sweet temperment (Eggs all hatched!)
1.3.13 Storeria dekayi Casper, Xena, Athena, Sharon & Kids
2.1.0 Thamnophis sirtalis - eastern Garters
0.0.1 Thamnophis HybridAlbino Checkered Normal eastern
2.0.0 Thamnophis sirtalis - eastern Garters (xtreme orange phase)
1.1.0 Thamnophis RADIX - Snow Hets
0.1.0 Thamnophis RADIX - Christmas Albino
0.0.1 Thamnophis sirtalis - Red Phase Eastern Garter red and white stripes
0.0.1 Thamnophis butleriButler's Garter Snake
0.0.4 Thamnophis proximus orariusCoastal Ribbons
0.0.16 Thamnophis sirtalis - newborn Eastern Garter babies 7/11/08
0.0.17 Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis HET Anerythristic Scott Felzer stock.
0.1.0 Thamnophis sirtalis Eastern Snow "Snowflake"
0.0.1 Thamnophis sirtalis infernalis California Red Sided (R.I.P. little guy)
1.2.0 Thamnophis pickeringi - Puget Sound Garter "Sky" (adult, Sky blue) 2 females recently aquired.
0.0.1 Nerodia sipedon - Water Snake - "Aqua" adult WC
0.1.0 Storeria occipitomaculata - Red Belly snake (Her children were raised & released)
0.0.1 Amelanistic Corn Snake "CY" Sub-adult CB
1.0.0. Pueblan Milk snake "Oreo" adult CB
1.0.0. ASIAN GREEN SNAKE 3' WC Cyclophiops major"Limon"
0.0.1. Savannah Monitor "CHOMPER" Growing fast!
1.1.3. Green Anole "Crystal" & "Chris" WC dropping eggs fast!
1.0.0. K9 "ACE" Black Cockapoo
0.2.0. Feline"Felix"(R.I.P. 4/27/08) "Kaja" & "Silver"
2.1.0. calico RATS
2.4.?? Mice - Feeder farm - Crickets / fish
More herps than I could ever list out back on the land.

But you guys give really good advice! Seriously though, let me just say thank you to everyone who has given me good advice over the years. It's always a good day when I can laugh at the sarcasm of DMong.
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0.1 Banded California kingsnake - Zorro
1.0 Betta fish - Billy
0.0.3 White Cloud Fish
1.0 RES - Chopstick
0.1 Australian Shepherd - Jet
2.1 Domestic Shorthair Mix Cats - Robert Bob, Nimbus, & Pirate

LOL!!, thanks!........yes, I know I am not usually very "soft" and forgiving with many things, but I use some bluntness and sarcasm fairly often to try to get certain points across. I usually try to call things just as I see them..,......sometimes with a good "pinch" of sarcasm added in..LOL!

take care, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Exactly how huge are your fingers? That "pinch" of sarcasm you add is quite plentiful. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy and welcome every grain!!! I've been known to add in my own "pinch" as required. (darn near every post)
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

LOL!!,..okay,...I guess many times I tend to use huge scoops of it instead of "pinches"!....hahaha!

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I can see both sides, while not agreeing with all that's said / thought by either.

Case in point, just recently one of my adult boas developed an abcess on his nose. I did take him to the vet and almost $600 later he's been drained/scraped and injected with antibiotics. Also came home with a bunch of syringes for follow on injections which I will be giving him.

I can see this would be a lot of money for many and could be to the point where it could not be afforded. I honestly don't know where I would put that value but at some point each and everyone of us will have a limit as what is reasonable to us to spend on veterinary care. There are extremists on both sides.. Those that think it's reasonable to spend thousands of dollars on a pet rat and those that won't even spend the few bucks for shots for their cat or dog. Most of us fall somewhere in the middle.

Is it reasonable to ask here for advice. IMO yeah, maybe it's something obvious although most likely not. Even if all it does is support the "need to see a vet" outcome than it's still a help.
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

I agree.
As a person who has kept snakes for almost all of my 33 years, I've got a good deal of experience. Sometimes, though, something will come up that I would like to get others' opinions on before rushing off to a vet.
Case in point:
Last year I noticed that my thayeri developed a lump in his throat prior to a shed and that after the shed the lump went away. The town where I was living at the time did not have a vet that treated reptiles, so I wasn't able to get the snake examined. I kept a close eye on him and noticed that the lump returned with each shed cycle.
I posted a message on these forums and found several people that told me their snakes did the same thing before a shed. They said it appears to be fluid retention associated with the shed cycle.
I shudder to think what might have happened if I'd brought the snake to a vet who was unfamiliar with reptiles. He may have thought that the lump was an abscess or a tumor or an infection and treated it accordingly, causing more harm than good.
I agree with seeking veterinary care, but in some cases the collective knowledge of the good people who post here can save some of us some time and money and our reptiles some undue suffering. I don't think that one should sit and wait for days for a miraculous diagnosis to arrive via internet, but I do think that educating ourselves prior to a vet trip can only help.
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1.1.0 Hondurans Het Amel
1.1.0 Hondurans Anery, Het Hypo
0.1.0 Honduran Hypo
0.1.0 Honduran Hypo, Het Anery
0.2.0 Pueblans
1.0.0 Pueblan Hypo
1.0.0 Thayeri MSP
0.0.1 GBK Blair's Phase
1.0.0 California King
0.1.0 California King Blue-eyed Blond
0.0.1 Speckled King WC
0.0.1 Jungle Carpet
0.1.0 Ball, Normal
1.0.0 San Diego Gopher, Poss. Het Applegate
0.0.1 Sulcata
0.1.0 Girlfriend, Caucasius Mexicana, Fiancee Phase

http://www.cafepress.com/shedz