Reptile & Amphibian Forums

...that a MBK is a melanistic Splendida?
Why are some born with a Splendida pattern?
Will the ones born with a pattern actually darken as they age?
Some are born black and some are not...

Just something I have pondered over the years.
I would like to hear the views of some folks on this forum....

Thanks,
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

It is a splendida in my book, ontogenic change, locale specific coloration for that area. All the babies I have gotten over the years had a little pattern showing through, reduced to two white chin shields as adults. My .02.
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Todd Hughes

Those are indeed very good questions, and as Todd also mentioned, I also think many are simply an adaptive polymorphism to better deal with certain conditions within their specific environment(s). But the fact that some start out pure black, and other's undergo an ontogenic change to a jet black coloration is still quite puzzling to me as well.

This is no doubt a very interesting phenomenon, as are many other things in nature.

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I think they're the same.

I am definitely a "splitter" vs a "lumper" for the sake of the hobby but I do think these are the same snake.

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Chris Jones
King of Kings Reptiles

http://www.kingofkingsreptiles.com/

"All the fancy names in the world will be of no help if you do not know the difference between chocolate pudding and pig poop." -Frank Retes

I have seen this king throughout its range, from southern Az. to northern Sin. mex. and various parts of Sonora, mex. In all areas I have seen both black and splendida patterns. There are a few particularities, that is, black individuals seem to me more common in the wetter habitats and splendida patterns are more common in the dryer habitats. Much like striped and banded cal kings. And like striped and banded cal kings, there is a lot of overlap where both patterns occur in the same area and from the same wild clutches.

Therefore, I believe L.g.n. to be invalid and is nothing more then a minority color pattern of L.g.splendida. By the way, this occurs with many types of kings. Cheers

I've owned and bred black ones........I never saw any yellow on any of my MBK

I think the 7 ssp of kings and all the sub sub species and all the morphs and colors were at one time all the same....loooong ago.......and they all just turned into all the different kings we have today.....

actually all North American snakes could have started with a single snake species....they can all interbreed and all can be fertile ........

....as of 9-18-08...I think splendita and MBK are different sub-species.........and should be kept that way......just like dark cal kings and banded and striped cals should all be kept separate......(this coming from a guy that bred a cal to a mex black...).....LOL.

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NP
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

>>NP
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>>John Lassiter
>>
>>"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

.....like I said...kings are all the same yet all different...

let me ask you all a question....

is a Calvert Co L.t.temporalis the same as a St Mary's Co or an Ocean Co NJ temp??? are all temps the same? and are they just pretty eastern milks?.......NO....and if you threw one of each county temporalis in a cage ,milkheads could tell you which was which.......yet they are all the same subspecies......

hmmmm......that could actually help the "they are the same" theory....not what it started to be....

all kings are the same yet different....LOL

......I stick with splendita to me is high patterned...I think of Texas...I think eastern.....and MBK I think pure black from hatching.....

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Melanistic splendida...

i do.....so tinkerbell won't die......i can FLY

Nice serious answer, Bob...lol

45646
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Diego

SWCHR

There's a lot of speculation about this, and nigrita may just be a melanistic form of splendida, but I have not seen any photos or adult specimens from the coastal region of Sonora that were patterned like splendida. FR claims to have seen them, but he has no pictures, and no specimens, at least none that he has shown me. I reduced the range of nigrita quite a bit, and consider all MBKs (WBKs) in SE AZ to be intermediates, even if they are solid black, due to the mix of patterns that occur there. what we need is a couple dozen people to road hunt western Sonora and document splendida patterns on adult kings in that area. Alamos is within the pure area as far as I can tell, with only juveniles and sub-adults showing any kind of pattern. However, it would not surprise me if this subspecies turned out to be just a color morph of splendida.

I really liked Patrick's comments on FHF under your multistrata question. See the quote attributed to Patrick that goes on to say "If there were nice discrete phenotypes, they would be species. Subspecies are there precisely for the situations in which things aren't discrete, but nonetheless show sufficient variation associated with geography that naming them is useful....." He adds more to that. He also says something else that I firmly believe, quote from Patrick " IMO, if we all agree that subspecies are inherently imprecise designations for fuzzy-edged variation then we can avoid the first problem pretty easily, and the subspecies remain useful."

In that regard, the subspecific epitaph nigrita is useful, even if it isn't warranted. I tend to agree with that in the case of triangulum as well, but how you'd draw the lines is up to you

Patrick is a smart guy.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

I agree with what he said, but my point about multistrata was that within the range and population there are radical looking morphs that bear no resemblance to what multistrata is described to look like. The pictures illustrated that pretty well. So...if a portion of the subspecies looks more like another subspecies, or combinations of three subspecies (1 of which are supposedly in another species) than the subspecies it is supposed to belong to, what the heck do you do with THAT?

>> do you do with THAT?

You're asking me? You'd have a better idea what to do there than I.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

I'm asking you about the concept, not the actual area. The only clear option I see is to say that there is not enough consistency throughout the range of multistrata to call them all Pale Milks.

Is there consistency in any part of the range? If so how much range and how many specimens are we talking? Is their habitat unique? Have you spoken with Matt I. for his opinion? I'm sorry for the questions, but I really know next to nothing about Pales.

I guess it just depends on what you know, learn, or believe. You may not want to open that can of worms, but if you feel it isn't valid, just write it and say why. Cope will applaud you for speaking your mind
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

I think it might be tied to habitat, as the snakes seem to vary with soil type and other factors, but Deptula already mentioned that in 1997. I will "speak my mind" but I am not going to propose changes or entirely ignore what is established. I don't write scientific papers. However, you can be sure it will be FUN.