Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Welcome to kingsnake.com's message board system. Here you may share and discuss information with others about your favorite reptile and amphibian related topics such as care and feeding, caging requirements, permits and licenses, and more. Launched in 1997, the kingsnake.com message board system is one of the oldest and largest systems on the internet.

Click here for Dragon Serpents
Click for 65% off Shipping with Reptiles 2 You
Click for 65% off Shipping with Reptiles 2 You

interesting field notes on lampropeltis

westernNC Sep 18, 2008 08:28 AM

Found this guy on the way into work this morning. Air temp was 58*, time was 8:35am. As I was recording my data, I made some interesting observations about temps and time of day for finding the different lampropeltis species in NC.

I've found four eastern kings this year:
4/8 6:30pm, temp 60*, inactive under cover
5/8 5:45pm, temp 74*, active under cover, storm approaching
5/14 4:30pm, temp 66*, active under cover, front approaching
5/14 4:30pm, temp 66*, inactive (opaque) under cover, front approaching

I've found three mole kings:
4/8 7:15pm, temp 59*, inactive under cover
5/10 8:30am, temp 68*, inactive under cover
9/18 8:35am, temp 58*, active under cover

Two scarlet kings:
4/9 early afternoon, temp 68*, inactive under cover
4/9 early afternoon, temp 68*, inactive under cover

Couple things to think about based on this data:
1. Lampropeltis in NC are usually surface active around moisture events in the spring and fall. I find the majority of Lampropeltis in the days following significant rains or electrical storms.

2. Lampropeltis are active at cooler temps than most other colubrids native to NC. I found a L.g.g. eating a yearling E.obsoleta under cover on October 3, 2004 at 9:15 am when the air temp was in the mid-60's. All other snake species found that day were inactive under cover.

3. L.g.g. is mostly likely found under cover in the evening...got this idea from KY Phil and it has proven out so far.

4. L.c.rhombomaculata is found under cover morning and evening. I've road cruised them at night in the past as well. I have never road cruised L.g.g. at night, but have found several on the crawl during the day through the years, usually before 1pm.

Thoughts? Experiences? These species seem so sporadic in the western Piedmont of NC that I would like to learn as much as possible about their habits. I have records that go back to 2003, but really don't have time to dig today to put specifics on there.

Photo taken in situ...snake was left to do his thing...

Thanks,
Michael

Replies (14)

DMong Sep 18, 2008 10:39 AM

That's some very interesting data!

I appreciate your sharing that with the forum. I agree, nothin' like a good rain event to liven things up!..LOL!

~Doug
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

FR Sep 18, 2008 01:02 PM

Its really great that your taking records, but there is a small problem, ok, a large problem.

Your records are great, but your assigning values is prejudiced. In this case, prejudiced means your assigning predetermined values to the unknown. And that means, your conclusions may not be valid.

Lets take your use of the word "active". You say these kings are active at lower temps then other snakes. But you did not find them being active, you found most undercover coiled up or moving, yet undercover.

So what allows you to say, they are inactive or not active???

Lets make a list of normal active behaviors, then make a list of what could be called inactive.

Active lists, just some easy to understand basics
A. shedding, feeding, foraging, mating, nesting, digesting prey bolus, thermal regulating, climbing, swimming, crawling on the surface, moving in any manner. engaged in group behavior, mate selection, maintaining hydration, etc.

Inactive list,

A. not moving, coiled up for long periods, sleeping, resting.

The problem with the inactive list is, how do you know they are actually inactive. This partains directly to your case. You mentioned that they come from somewhere and move undercover in the evening. You got that hint for KY Phil. Another interpitation of that "could be" they actively moved from a resting a place to somewhere closer to the surface to take advantage of higher temps. This would fall under the active list as, thermal regulating, not resting or sleeping, in the inactive list. As they moved from somewhere to the place you are looking, at a certain time means, they are actively doing something. The question is what??

An example for the inactive list is, sleeping, when snakes sleep, their eyeballs droop, that is, their pupil drops to the bottom of the eye. have you seen this? Of course reptiles with eyelids are much eaiser to tell as they close their eyes. Even this can be confusing, sleeping lizards eyeballs bulge out, hiding lizards eyes are held in.

The point I am making is, there are very defined active behaviors that reptiles do, only we never or rarely see them. Yet, most on the active list are common daily behaviors active animals of all types do. Yet, you and I rarely see them do these common daily, or even seasonal activities.

Take copulation, we all know that snakes commonly copulate over long periods in our spring/summer/fall, depending on species, yet, you do not see it in nature. We do see it commonly in captivity. Does this mean they do not copulate as commonly in nature. Or does it mean, we are not looking where they are commonly active? The problem is, where they are actually active, is not where we are looking, this is a key concept.

The key to understanding some of this information is, you must find ways to gather that information. Not just a snake under a board.

The key is, observation. Not just seeing a snake under a board, but observing what that individual is doing under the board. Taking more data gives a better idea of what is actually occuring

For instance, when snakes need heat, they move to a place that has the heat they need. In your case, you should determine what those reasons are. Did they have prey in their guts, a common reason to move close to the surface. Were any in opaque(in shed) They commonly elevate they BODY TEMPS during this time. Did you notice if the cover was in the sun in the day and heated from the days sun, or in the shade not heated above the rest of the surrounding area. Did you compare the mass temps under the AC to other surrounding areas??

In our field studies there are three very common reasons snakes move near the surface, One is digesting food, two is shedding, three, is incubating eggs/embryos. The fourth is, to strengthen the immune system.

The above three or four activities require the highest temps. Other behaviors do not require the highest temps and in fact can be done at much much lower temps. Or a wide range of temps. Such behaviors as prey capture, can be done in a number of ways, with cooler temps, ambush feeding can be done and is commonly done, but active foraging requires higher temps to allow their bodies to move more efficently. In most cases, individuals ambush feed first, as it requires to loss of energy, then forage feed second, which requires lots more energy. There is less actual gain to the individual if it must forage. Also there is far more exposure to danger when foraging. Yet, they must at times do this to stay alive. In our studies, they try to conserve energy at all costs. So they do as little as possible.

The above is very easy to test in captivity, a captive snake will feed well before it crawls around looking for food, the longer you wait, the more it crawls, then if it cannot find food, it will go down and conserve energy(choose cool temps if allowed)

One actual point to my post is, instead of making conclusions, its time for you to ask better questions. Its time to take better observations and data.

For instance, were the temps you cited, air temps or body temps. The reason I ask is, air temps are not so important or accurate to snakes, mass temps are very important and more accurate. The area under those boards is important, not the air above the boards. More importantly is the Internal body temps of the snakes your finding. Are you taking those, and yes, there are many body temps that can be taken, Cloacal temps, bolus temps, head temps, are important and commonly different, depending on need and activity.

More, when a snake voluntarily moves from a temp to a different temp, is key to understanding its needs, not its temps when if first coils up to gain or loss heat. At what temp does it choose to change its behavior?

As normal I go on to far, but hopefully you will get the point. In your post, you state kingsnakes use lower temps, in order to say that, you would need to fill in the above and compare it to those other species information, taken in the same manner. To make a comparison, they have to be in context to eachother.

Any questions, hahahahahahahahaha Cheers and keep up the observations.

bobassetto Sep 18, 2008 07:23 PM

ahhhhh...what a behaviorist you are........excellent narrative....but where does this guy work???....i'm applying.....finding moles on the way to work......MOST EXCELLENT

westernNC Sep 19, 2008 10:44 AM

Bob,
Moles are more common that eastern kings or corns in the western piedmont of NC. Trick is to know when to look for them. I usually find 3-4 live ones each year and at least that many dor.

Thanks,
Michael

agalinis Sep 18, 2008 07:26 PM

Actually, I recommend conducting a literature review and get some hard, scientific data on the behavior of kings, especially Easterns and Floridas. There are a number of excellent articles out there from the last few years that go into detail about all the things you guys are discussing. They don't hit all the points you're talking about, but it helps to weed out all the anecdotal statements on here.
-----
Peace.

-John

westernNC Sep 19, 2008 10:33 AM

I typically record them as active vs. inactive if they are stretched out and moving vs. coiled and slow to respond. I agree that my methods are flawed because I rely on air temps, but for a guy who does this as a hobby, a combination of air temps, weather conditions, time of day, time of year, etc. paint a pretty good picture for me to improve my chances of finding specific species when I choose to search for them.

I have really learned a lot about when to look and where to look since I started recording data in 2003. I found my first eastern king in 1988 at age 11 on the bank of a little creek that was part of the Haw River drainage which dumps the Cape Fear as it passes into the Coastal Plain. It was completely by chance. Back in those days, I would find up to 3 easterns on a good day just walking the banks, but I had a lot more time to spend in the field back then. When I got back into snakes in 2002, I knew I needed better methods to find them because I didn't have the time to spend in the field that I had as a boy due to adult responsibilities.

So, to improve data collection for a guy who is not willing to purchase a temp gun, what would you all recommend? How would you track data on a spreadsheet?

I appreciate the feedback and guidance. I will cut and paste some notes if anyone is interested.

Thanks,
Michael

FR Sep 19, 2008 12:22 PM

This post explains alot. Your data is not actually about the biology of those snakes, but instead, information to improve your ability to find some individuals. Yes, these are indeed two different things.

I really do not know what to say, as I am not pro collecting. I believe wild snakes should stay wild. And not molested. Of course, there are exceptions and conditions. If snakes are taken from nature or molested(held, manipulated, moved) Its better to do that with animals found crossing roads, compared to animals found in the field. And yes, those are just my opinions.

As I do not know you, I do not know what your interests are and your motivation. So until then, I will refrain from increasing your ability to find them. I wish you well. Thanks

tricolorbrian Sep 18, 2008 10:49 PM

I think you've discovered that kings like to be "active" under cover when its cooler, and active abroad when its humid and low pressure is present (like after, before and during thunderstorm events). Maybe what you missed (and what FR was trying to say) is that beneath that cover it is a lot warmer than "outside." Hence, the snakes are able to consume prey, thermoregulate and prepare to shed, even when outside temps seem too cool for those activities. I have found kings "active" under cover in outside temps of 42 degrees in CA. I have also found them crawling when it was in the mid-60s outside. I have also found Easterns under cover in the morning in NC. In fact, my first EK was found under a 4 x 8 at Plymouth, Washington county in May 1997 at about 9:30 a.m.

Keep taking those notes!

DMong Sep 19, 2008 11:07 AM

It would be VERY interesting to "shoot" these situations with a temp gun as soon as the cover/debris is "flipped" to find out EXACTLY what the actual temps are of any snake that are found. I would imagine the actual results would surprise many folks.

~Doug
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

tricolorbrian Sep 19, 2008 02:55 PM

I've been carrying a temp gun recently and using it to check road and soil temps at night, and rock and soil temps during the day. Unfortunately, I haven't turned up any snakes when I had the temp gun with me, but I imagine next spring will be very fun in CA.

DMong Sep 19, 2008 04:26 PM

Very good Brian!,...I'm sure you will find some snakes if you keep carrying the temp gun on you. That should make for some interesting data in the near future. Figures you didn't find any when you had it on you...."Murphy's law"..LOL!

First time you forget it, you will run into piles of snakes..hahaha!

~Doug
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

westernNC Sep 19, 2008 10:40 AM

A sample from March 2007. I actually have a third column with specific details that I didn't want to post in here. I don't record conditions/temps for every species...just the moles, easterns, scarlet kings, and scarlet snakes...these guys just seem to be so sporadic that I want more info on them.

I have tons more info if anyone wants to share privately. My email is mcoone@hotmail.com. Please keep in mind that if I get an email from someone I don't know or haven't conversed with over the forums, I'm going to ask that you do your homework for a couple weeks before providing any concrete locale info.

Thanks in advance. Michael

Date Species County
March
15 Dekay's Catawba
21 Worm Snake Onslow
23 Cottonmouth (dor) Craven
Tantilla New Hanover
Tantilla New Hanover
Worm Snake New Hanover
Racer New Hanover
Racer New Hanover
Redbelly New Hanover
Redbelly New Hanover
24 Eastern King New Hanover
Eastern Hognose (melanistic) New Hanover
Racer Brunswick
Worm Snake Sampson
25 Queen Snake Guilford
Queen Snake Guilford
Queen Snake Guilford
Northern Water Snake Guilford
26 Black Rat (dor) Cleveland
Eastern King Lincoln
Worm Snake Catawba
27 Garter Lincoln
30 Worm Snake Pender
31 Racer New Hanover
Tantilla New Hanover

BlueKing Sep 20, 2008 01:05 AM

Thanks Michael!
Nice observations....Thanks for sharing.

Zee
-----
"I am an expert on everything, but I know so little and have so much to learn!" -Carsten "Zee" Zoldy-

westernNC Sep 22, 2008 03:10 PM

Thanks Zee. Not as much diversity out west than what you have down east, but something good turns up once in a while...

Glad to have you back in the states!

Michael

Site Tools