Reptile & Amphibian Forums

By operative conditioning I assume we are are referring basically to the amazing work Flavio did with the Cubans while working at Gatorland. I'm sure other people have done similar work. Basically as I understand op.cond. you are reinforcing a certain behavior usually with a treat. As opposed to classical cond. where a response occurs because of a stimulus.
I would love to take a course from Flavio and learn his techniques in fact everyone working with crocs in any capacity would be better off taking this class.
With that being said op. cond. for a reptile show that entertains/educates the GENERAL PUBLIC is a TERRIBLE idea.
Yes another reptile educator/entertainer is now going to chime in. There sure are a bunch of us.
My company is called Reptile Adventures and as the name implies it is more of a general reptile show. It does include crocodilians I usually have a small gator and then a larger caiman or gator. Nothing as big as Kachunga only about 5 feet or so. This is not my only experience I have about 35 crocodilians(10 different species). This does not make me expert just someone who has been keeping crocs for 18 years.
My show is educational I did schools for years before doing fairs and festivals. Quite frankly I did not think it was exciting enough. But fairs have changed and now for the last 10 years they seem to be happy with my show. There would be some things in my show you may not like just like there are things in Kachungas show that I do not like. But man-handling a big gator is not one of them. This sends exactly the right message.
You better be big, strong and a little bit brave or you are going to get hurt.
If I call out a name and a 6 foot gator lumbers out of my tent
lays down in front of the audience; I point out various anatomical features give him his treat and he lumbers back to the tent I have just given the alligator the greatest disservice that I possibly can. I have taken away the innate fear that humans have of giant reptiles.
Now every person in the audience thinks"see they can be trained, he will come when I call him. I can teach him to do tricks like eat the neighbors cat. Basically he can be my dog.
The op. cond. thread appeared while I was doing the Utah state fair. There was also a tiger show there. I discussed this with one of the trainers because that is how they train their cats. I expressed concern about anyone thinking they can own a gator. He immediately said we get that all the time. EVEN with a TIGER people see them in the enclosure interacting with the cat and they can envision it in their backyard.
On the flipside even a 5footer that is not tame fights and splashes enough that most people know this is not a pet. Which is a huge part of my educational show what does and what does not make a good pet.
I had a nile monitor dog-tame I would say "this does not make a good pet"(as opposed to blue tongues and beardeds) because it was over 4 feet most people believed me. I picked up (for free) another nile monitor same size with a more typical nile attitude.
All teeth, claws, and tail. When I get it out I bleed. Now when I say "this does not make a good pet" people look at me and say," no s**t! Not everyone but the majority of people do not need big snakes, big lizards or any crocodilians. Do I think these animals should be prohibited?Absolutely not. But like parenthood maybe the rules should be a little more strict. The difference between obtaining a gator and a tiger probably a thousand dollars
and tons of legalities. If you folks that run rescues think you see alot of gators now your numbers would increase a 1000 fold.
my thoughts
D.C.

Its not just that Danny, operant conditioning only works in a relaxed environment. There is absolutely no way someone can condition an alligator to exhibit a behavior, pack the animal up and drive across the country and then expect the animal to duplicate the behavior. It just wont happen.
Good points btw.
Bert

I also do educational shows and keep a small gator around. I use operant conditioning, but it is for my safety and not the pleasure of the audience. I use clicker training or voice cues for feeding vs cleaning or handling.

I hear what you're saying and it is important to uphold the integrity of the animal.

Are you using a clicker to signify it is meal time? I would have thought that is more classical cond.(but I'm certainly no psych. major.) I thought with op. they had to perform a behavior to get a treat. Although I guess responding to a name is no different than responding to a clicker. The trick is multiple crocs in the same enclosure reponding only to their name or number of clicks.
I have been amazed over the years the signals the crocs have picked up on. I always did sort of a gator grunt when it was feeding time. I usually would also click my barbeque tongs together or tap them on the fencing.
But through the years they have also reponded to the tearing open of plastic grocery bags and also the putting on of latex gloves(still for feeding lol).
But the most interesting ig. was at the Snake Farm (reptile zoo in TX where I use to work.)
On Sunday afternoons we would feed the gator pond (mostly gators but an assortment of crocs also.) The bosses wife over the intercom would announce, " We will be feeding the alligators out in the alligator pond in 15 minutes so if you want to see the crocodiles eat... 15 minutes at the gator pond."
She would say this and here they would come hauling out of the pond. Waiting to be fed.
They did not have a calendar in their pen so they did not know what day it was.
But typical announcements over the intercom were short in duration, "Danny come to the front,or John you have a phone call." These short messages never budged the crocs but that once a week long message spurred them to action.
They are smarter than we think.
D.C.

Ooops, mea culpa! It is classical conditioning. I thought so too, but I was following the vernacular.

I clicker trained my dog and had so much fun, then heard about clicker training tegus to reduce feeding aggression. Then I heard Flavio speak and visited his website. Well, I was already using clickers in my house and since Flavio used voice intonations, I did the same type of thing.

My gator is called "Oscar", and you can draw out that last syllable pretty easily. So I started calling, "Oscaaaaar" and making two kissing sounds (like calling a dog) when it was feeding time. I also fed in the am. Every morning, he's in the corner, waiting for me to call, then he gets all excited. I can see him now, with his nose in the corner, LOL.

Likewise, he has figured out that when I come to him with a towel, I'm probably going to pick him up, and he goes the other way. I have cleaning tools I use and he just retreats and watches. It just keeps the hands safe when messing around in there.

training of Crocs I began doing this in the 1980's and had remarkable success. The very Cuban Crocs you describe were sold to Gatorland by me along with many other species. My main reason for doing it was for my own safety and the safety of employees. Since I required every croc to be handfed[in order to look for fight wounds etc] the Cubans were trained to come out of the ponds and sit and wait to be fed. This was in a large enclosure with 2 ponds and housed 2.4 breeding Cubans. I did this with many dangerous species, porosus, acutus, siamensis, moreleti, etc. When crocs had to be moved or were sold I did NOT personally do it as they remember for a very long time and would not respond to handfeeding. When they heard Little John's [the catcher] truck every croc would jump in the ponds and hide. Crocs are much more intellegent than people give them credit for. I personally believe they have the learning capability of smaller pticcicine birds like cockateils.Over the years I had 19 species of crocodilians and successfully bred 11 species. They are wonderful very intellegent herps to work with......TC

We also train our crocs primarily for safety reasons. We only feed after using certain cues(sounds) and this keeps it much safer for routine enclosure maintenance. No cue no feeding response.

I find it interesting you list Morelet's on your list of dangerous species, or at least as dangerous as the others, as my experiences with them here and in Mexico have been the opposite. Of course they are still a semi large crocodilian and as such are dangerous in that regard.

Your story about catching crocs rings very true. We have a group of Niles here that will hand feed when I am alone but if even one person accompanies me they will refuse to feed or often even show themselves. I have found this response to be far less among animals raised from hatchling to adulthood here. It seems then they simply don't have the same problem with people.

As for their intelligence they have a high neuron density and a developed cerebral cortex which definetly gives them some ability beyond all other reptiles. While they won't be building hospitals anytime soon they certainly exhibit a variety of learned behaviours.
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CDieter
'Reason, observation, and experience; the holy trinity of science.'

Actually our niloticus group were among the calmest of all our crocs. The lemon yellow one at Gatorland was one of my favorites. You're absolutely correct about them being wary of strangers. My large 14' False Gavial[he's the monster at Alligator Adventure] was so tame my 15 year old daughter would take dips in his pond and he would swim up to be scratched. This sounds foolish but remember I had him for over 25 years since he was 3' long. I had a large male Nile [about 12-13'] that one had to step over because of his habit of basking by the door. He was extremely tame and quite friendly even. Morelets in some areas[Belize for instance] occasionally attack people and I believe there's been one or two fatalities. Captive ones are usually calm but my big 8' plus male was as mean as any croc I had. I guess thats why I included moreleti. I had several large pairs of breeding C. porosus and only one male was extremely aggresive but he was baaad. My experiences with crocs is that each has a distinctive personality and all are different. Basically with a four chambered heart and other anatomical reasons they are quite simply "birds without feathers". I like Niles and am glad you do as well. All the best....TC

I'd like to learn more about the training of crocs. All of our training would be what I call incidental.
I have told people for years that not only do my crocs recognize me they also respond different to me. They trust me when it comes to feeding, (my wife is the only other person they will allow to feed them). When I enter the enclosure only the biggest ones will challenge me. The enclosure with the smaller ones they all run I guess they are afraid they will be caught up and go to a fair or school. The big ones do not travel at all any more so they are a little cockier. However, on the rare occurance a stranger enters ANY enclosure all the crocs are much more aggressive. Even the smaller ones. Much more terratorial with strangers.
I can attest to the long memory. When I worked at the Snake Farm another tourist attraction wanted to give us their big gator. They had him on display over 50 years and he was an adult when they got him. He was a solid 12 feet with several inches of tail rotted off. He did'nt have enough land to completely dry out.
Armed with a rope a blanket and a roll of duct tape. We finally "subdued" this big gator. The owner, John was on his back pushing down on the gators head I was behind John trying to hang on. The third guy was taping his mouth shut.
We moved the gator to Snake Farm where he had more water, more land, and more girlfriends. He should have been happier and he probably was with everyone BUT John. John could'nt enter the enclosure. John could'nt lean over the fence of the enclosure.
I did all the mowing certainly all the feeding. He would gently take a chicken from my hand I would rub him on the head and he would retreat in the water. But he wanted to kill John. It was at least 4 years before John was allowed into the enclosure.
When I got back home this summer and my wife was talking about the crocs she mentioned how gently the Siamese take their food.
I did'nt think she would confuse the Siamese because currently they are my biggest crocs(2 females). So I watched and sure enough they were amazingly gentle and well-behaved. When I feed them they go nuts biting and snapping maybe they really want to get me. D.C.

You’ve made an excellent point, Danny. No denying it. It’s a given that such a show could “possibly” promote them further as ‘pets’. But, I don’t feel that the wrestling angle is doing them truly that much more of a service. In fact, I feel it plays another role to a degree…making people fear them that much more. Through the shows, the alligator is snapping, etc. and showing an aggressive interaction with the human…which, definitely helps them to some degree. They get to see how an alligator looks after its interests…which I feel is important. However, there is another issue…in many people’s minds, this shows a dangerous and hideous beast and just why the hell would we want to keep those around? Alligator wrestling shows have been around for a considerable period of time. They haven’t curbed the pet store sale of alligators yet. Because in reality, all the mind frame will be is, “Well, I’ll just hit the gym and bulk up”, or the guy that already has obtained said physical status will say, “Well, hell…I’m as big if not bigger than that guy is…I can do that too.” I’m not saying that a certain amount of risk and danger shouldn’t be shown…I do feel that has an important role in showing the audience what these animals are capable of. However, I feel we also owe it to the animals to show them a different side of the animal. If not, THEN, I believe we are truly doing them a disservice. Is this going to cause a rapid boost in pet store purchases of alligators? Possibly. But the reality is that there plenty of people out there that promote this by having a 3-4 footer cuddle up with them like a baby, etc. Most people have never had a plan for this animal as an adult…trained or not. They purchase them because it’s “cool” and they want the “danger” factor in there to boost their own egos. I think we need to work on self policing our own industry and curb the sale of alligators and other crocs at the stores and herp show tables, rather than trying to intimidate the purchaser by putting an animal in unnecessary stressful situations. Granted, I’m not saying a ban or anything of that nature is necessary….just personal restraint and control. I don’t like legislation, but if we don’t do something fast…it’s inevitable.

Giving people an opportunity to see how truly intelligent animals can be, often changes people’s perceptions of them. There is something attractive and beautiful about an animal formerly thought to simply be nothing more than a dangerous menace, being mindful and gentle. This gives people hope and thought that a fair co-existence is possible. Granted, operant conditioning doesn’t necessarily mean you have to teach the gator to roll over or speak…it could simply mean having the animal perform some of its very own behaviors on cue.

Bert did make an excellent point regarding the traveling exhibits in which the constant environmental changes and surroundings might prove it difficult to have the animal perform the same behaviors that it would in an environment that it is comfortable. However, I don’t feel that it is beyond the realm of possibilities. Simply put…I feel we’ve yet to unveil the full potential of crocodilians. Flavio’s work is groundbreaking and certainly opened up doors that previously were thought impossible or unlikely.

These are just my thoughts…

Chris

>>By operative conditioning I assume we are are referring basically to the amazing work Flavio did with the Cubans while working at Gatorland. I'm sure other people have done similar work. Basically as I understand op.cond. you are reinforcing a certain behavior usually with a treat. As opposed to classical cond. where a response occurs because of a stimulus.
>>I would love to take a course from Flavio and learn his techniques in fact everyone working with crocs in any capacity would be better off taking this class.
>>With that being said op. cond. for a reptile show that entertains/educates the GENERAL PUBLIC is a TERRIBLE idea.
>>Yes another reptile educator/entertainer is now going to chime in. There sure are a bunch of us.
>>My company is called Reptile Adventures and as the name implies it is more of a general reptile show. It does include crocodilians I usually have a small gator and then a larger caiman or gator. Nothing as big as Kachunga only about 5 feet or so. This is not my only experience I have about 35 crocodilians(10 different species). This does not make me expert just someone who has been keeping crocs for 18 years.
>>My show is educational I did schools for years before doing fairs and festivals. Quite frankly I did not think it was exciting enough. But fairs have changed and now for the last 10 years they seem to be happy with my show. There would be some things in my show you may not like just like there are things in Kachungas show that I do not like. But man-handling a big gator is not one of them. This sends exactly the right message.
>>You better be big, strong and a little bit brave or you are going to get hurt.
>>If I call out a name and a 6 foot gator lumbers out of my tent
>>lays down in front of the audience; I point out various anatomical features give him his treat and he lumbers back to the tent I have just given the alligator the greatest disservice that I possibly can. I have taken away the innate fear that humans have of giant reptiles.
>>Now every person in the audience thinks"see they can be trained, he will come when I call him. I can teach him to do tricks like eat the neighbors cat. Basically he can be my dog.
>>The op. cond. thread appeared while I was doing the Utah state fair. There was also a tiger show there. I discussed this with one of the trainers because that is how they train their cats. I expressed concern about anyone thinking they can own a gator. He immediately said we get that all the time. EVEN with a TIGER people see them in the enclosure interacting with the cat and they can envision it in their backyard.
>>On the flipside even a 5footer that is not tame fights and splashes enough that most people know this is not a pet. Which is a huge part of my educational show what does and what does not make a good pet.
>>I had a nile monitor dog-tame I would say "this does not make a good pet"(as opposed to blue tongues and beardeds) because it was over 4 feet most people believed me. I picked up (for free) another nile monitor same size with a more typical nile attitude.
>>All teeth, claws, and tail. When I get it out I bleed. Now when I say "this does not make a good pet" people look at me and say," no s**t! Not everyone but the majority of people do not need big snakes, big lizards or any crocodilians. Do I think these animals should be prohibited?Absolutely not. But like parenthood maybe the rules should be a little more strict. The difference between obtaining a gator and a tiger probably a thousand dollars
>>and tons of legalities. If you folks that run rescues think you see alot of gators now your numbers would increase a 1000 fold.
>>my thoughts
>>D.C.
-----
My Website
www.herpfanatic.com

I was out of town doing a festival but wanted to reply to your wonderfully optimistic view of people.
Once again let me state that I believe this op.cond. show would absolutely cause more people to want a gator. Like I said the tiger guy had the same problem with his show. A tiger. 200lbs in one year. With that kind of animal you have very little time to be in charge in a physical sense. With a gator you have much longer to,(at a last resort) physically control him.
As far as gator wrestlers deterring gator ownership I think it can. I KNOW my show does. I don't know how far reaching gator shows are out of Florida. Now S.C.and Rapid City S.D. but growing up in TX(Houston) I never saw any gator wrestlers.
Maybe Kachunga just needs to beat them over the head with the message of "this is a bad pet".
With people you can't suggest or insinuate you have to spell it out. Which results in our biggest disagreement.
First let me say I agree with policing our own hobby.
The best thing that could have happened to the spec. caiman was the interstate sales law. This stopped it from being a disposable reptile pet by making the price quadruple.
It would be that simple instead of $50.00 make them $500.00
Now you can still buy a baby gator but you have to want one a lot more.
The people selling them would only have to sell one as opposed to eleven or twelve to make the same profit.
Chris you are a smart guy but you are a young guy. And unfortunately it has been my experience that people rarely do the right thing because it is the right thing. They rarely do the right thing because of a newfound appreciation.
Generally people do the right thing for fear of retribution.
The phenomna I call, "jail or hell". They do good for fear of doing bad. I can live with that.The fact a croc is a wonderful Mom isn't going to stop someone from smashing her head with a bat and then amputating her head and tail. The fear of going to jail may. The fear of slipping and the croc ripping their arm off may. The reason alligators made their comeback was because of the leather industry. The demand was so great it behooved people to get more gators. Hence captive bred, captive born, collecting wild eggs, all the programs we have in place now. Brillant people like Ted Joanen and Larry Mcnease took gator husbandry into an entirely new era.
I hate that. I hate that purses, luggage, and shoes are made of one of the most magnificent predators to ever grace this earth.
It makes me sick thinking of all the crocodilians worldwide that die in the skin trade. But I'm a realist. I know yhe only reason an apex predator is allowed to survive is because we(people) want something from it. In this case the very skin off its back(I know really the belly).
My wife,(20 year vegetarian) would say if there was no demand none would be killed legally or illegally. Once again not true.
They would be killed out of fear, for food, for their habitat.
So I live with crocs being raised to be slaughtered.What I really hate is when moron#1 ignores all signs and feeds wild gators. Then moron #2 (usually drunk) ignores more signs and goes swimming with fed gator then he gets his arm ripped off and wildlife feels obligated to kill 1/2 dozen gators looking for the one that has a losers arm in his belly. On forums I always speak in generalities. Generally speaking people suck.
D.C.

Danny,

Before responding I had to sit back and reflect and what you said. Ultimately, I feel you do have a good point. However, I also feel you are neglecting other points. You are correct that in many cases, what might prevent someone from behaving irresponsibly around an alligator is fear of what that alligator might do if things don’t go according to plan. The issue is, however, that I don’t feel that people directly wishing the alligator (or other crocodilians) harm make up the majority. Who I feel makes up the majority are the average home owners who live around these animals and fear for their safety, their children’s safety, or pet’s safety. I feel they are the largest concern for a wild alligator at this time. I could be wrong, and I don’t have any statistics in front of me to back it up at the current moment, but I would feel that nuisance trappers due to the Florida 4’ and larger regulations probably kill more alligators than hunters do.
I know that a few might get saved occasionally by sanctuaries and such that might have more room, but the average gators caught…end up getting put down.
Like yourself, I hate the fact that we have to have an “industry” in order for the world to feel that it is “OK” to protect and conserve something such an apex predator. But, slowly but surely…I do feel the world is warming up to a variety of animals much better than they have in the past. It could take time, but I feel more and more people are starting to have more emotions towards all kinds of animals. Given the right ammo with education, it could very well turn many more people around. Learning that alligators (or replace with your preferred croc) are actually intelligent animals and have personalities, likes and dislikes or other preferences help show that these animals are more than just a dangerous menace with a one track mind. Teaching people about what causes alligator attacks and if necessary…provide photos of injuries caused by bites from alligators and such. Sometimes, seeing the damage done is what changes people’s minds. Seeing someone “wrestle” an alligator and getting away with it without a scratch is almost an invite. Showing the aftermath of someone who didn’t get away with it tells a different story. Perhaps some educational material for individuals so they can read about people who have suffered as a result of others stupidity with illegally feeding wild gators and such?
I might be young, but that doesn’t mean that I haven’t had opportunities to learn about the human mindframe when it comes to animals. Are squirrels persecuted and feared on a regular basis or rabbits? No. Is the average dog or cat? No. The ones that are persecuted on a regular basis and feared are those that have a history of aggression or have an element of danger to them. Others would include snakes in which have an element of mystery to them and people not understanding them. Most people would rather see them dead as a result. However, learning that there is more to them than the danger factor and that there is a way to coincide peacefully and that’s by BEING SMART, can have a helping hand in saving a life or two. You mentioned a while back (at least I believe this was you) that you consider Burmese Pythons to be the ambassador of the snake world? I would agree with you. They are large and gentle. Also, quite beautiful. I’ve had great success with mine in helping people get over their fear of snakes. I’ve had an opportunity to show people why they don’t make good pets by leaving articles about individuals that have been killed by their “pet”. At the same time, I would explain what incident caused the situation. Helping people understand their behavior, prevents unnecessary fear. While these people might not necessarily go right out and say, “I want a pet snake now”…it just very well might prevent a shovel being taken to a garter or rat snake in their yard. Just seeing these animals in public draws attention. It doesn’t require thrashing around and such. I know of individuals who have just been able to draw a crowd simply by having one there. In the mean-time, people want to get close and then begin to ask questions. A perfect opportunity to educate and all involved are happy.

These are just my opinion and nothing more. I do think this is a good discussion and a lot of excellent points have been made.

Best regards,

Chris
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My Website
www.herpfanatic.com

Hi Chris
Nice post.
I agree about the gator thing and people worrying about their kids/pets.
I do not believe there is a bunch of gator haters out there who want to exterminate the species. But any negative publicity concerning an animal and the general public is on the eradicate bandwagon faster than you would want to believe.
Maybe 6-7 years ago a firefighter was killed in Dayton by his "pet" Rhino viper. A tradgedy to be certain and just as certain the keepers fault. None the less the public went nuts screaming for vengance. They wanted to hang the snake from the nearest tree. To his grieving widows credit she knew that would be the last thing her late husband would have wanted. She called a friend of mine who owns a sanctuary there to come and get all of his snakes. We were scheduled to do the Montgomery Co. fair later that month and the fair manager asked specifically if we had Rhino Vipers. I said I did but would only let them travel in the winter. They could'nt take the heat. I said I had a Gaboon viper that I brought that was like the 1st cousin to the Rhino.
He suggested I NOT bring it. The talk shows were still raging about the snakebite incident and he thought it would be a bad idea.
I have never wanted to "scare" people out of the ownership of snakes. For one thing thing the general public is much more afraid of snakes than crocs. (BTW when I say crocs I usually mean crocodilians I am an extremely slow typist so every little bit helps.)People have an innate fear/hatred of snakes, in the U.S. I'm sure in Africa in Nile country that may be different.
When I bring out my first gator usually less than 2 years old I get the same response regardless of venue. AHHHH (it is the is'nt he cute sound). I NEVER get that sound with a snake regardless of size or species. A beautiful 2 month old Retic I can show them the egg he hatched from. Sometimes you still see signs of an umbilicus. Not one AHHH. No one thinks snakes are cute. They think they are, cool, pretty, graceful, powerful etc.
But never cute. A baby gator on the other hand, is there anything cuter?
Maybe we need more blood in the gator show you could have a point. I know it works with my nile monitor. There is at 3 Kachunga guys plus exKachunga guy Swampmaster. That is 40 fingers. 1/2 a finger a show should do the trick.LOL
(I don't think anyone wants the cute blonde to lose a finger.
My old boss (Snake Farms first owner) Lost his right thumb to a big EDB.Even without a thumb he would crush your hand if you were'nt ready for it. But that was a constant reminder to always take rattlesnakes seriously.
I am the one who calls Burms ambassadors of the snake world. And like you my burms have thrilled, educated, and hopefully changed negative percetions all over the country. I still tell people they do not make good pets because once again I speak in generalities. The reason more people are killed by burms than any other big snake is because they are so common but just as important they are so docile. People forget what they are working with. That zookeeper in South America that was just recently killed by a 10 foot Retic. 10 foot!!!!
That could be a 2 year old snake. Just think how old a croc has to be before they are big enough to kill. Unless you bleed to death. Oh well I'm tired of typing. Enjoyed this thread alot. So sick of "my dwarf caiman" won't eat threads.
Even if you are young and fairly new to crocs I respect you and your viewpoint. I don't want or expect everyone to agree with me but they better damn well be able to back up their arguement.
D.C.