Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I just lost a baby Blood Python to this, what exactly is is it? Is there any treatment?

Matthew

First, Sorry for your loss.
How do you know it was IBD? If it was a vet are they a good reptile vet? Here is some more info for you.
http://www.reptileexpert.co.uk/BodyInclusionDisease.html
Nick
Link

No, I'm not sure other than some of the behavior matches the description, especially constantly looking up gazing at the sky. It could have been some kind of Respiratory issue I'm now told. Unfortunately, I do not live very close to any QUALIFIED herp vet so everything is guess work.
I've replaced the baby, but watching the new guy like a hawk!

Matthew

Well, he certainly exhibited the CNS symptoms described, plus no feeding response. I just wish I had not mistaken the behavior. i feel like such an idiot now. The first warning sign was that he displayed no aggression or any kind of striking behavior ( I was told he was a biter at the store, prior to eating.). He never ate for me, either. And displayed very rapid weight loss.
I suppose it could be any number of things including Pneumonia & Congenital CNS defects. Some babies are just doomed, sadly..
Thanks for the link, but it doesn't really resolve the mystery. I'll never know.

Matthew

Holding a head up can certainly be from a upper resp., but a baby blood who's not shed and has a tight skin can from dryness can also show the same symptoms. If a collection gets IBD, you may as well freeze any suspected of having it. No cure.
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1.1 Blackheaded pythons
2.3 Woma
4.2 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.1 Bloods
2.2 IJ Carpets
1.0 Coastal Carpets
1.3 Macklotts
1.2 F2 Carpondros
2.0 Jungle Carpet
0.1 Carpondro
1.1 Brazilian Rainbow boas
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

Can I just say that freezing IS NOT an aceptable form of euthanasia! It is an inhumane method, and also very painful. If you love herps, use a vet!
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signature file edited, contact an admin. 2/13/06

..And if you don't have a vet??? I'm still looking at a humane way to put down mice, myself.
As for IBD, are python keepers a bit superstitious about this illness? I've sensed that on the Blood forum..

Matthew

IBD can break you in this hobby. It is the scarlet letter of the Reptile world. Pythons don't last long when symptoms start. Boas can be A-symptomatic for who knows how long. Bottom line, if infected, it can and will destroy a collection whether in-direct, or directly. For someone that has a few "Pets", it may not be viewed the same as the people who have blood, sweat, tears, and a butt load of money invested in their collections. It's not something that is taken lightly, and the fact that we know very little about it makes the "Paranoia" worse. Diagnosis can be very complicated and costly, and mis-diagnosis can ruin someone with a stellar reptation over night. Inclusion bodies are not hard to find. It is where and in what concentrations that determines what we call "IBD". Personally, it should be called something more defining, and not so broad. It would help with public perception, and not cause un-educated panic like it sometimes does.
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South Central Herpetological

Well, nobody has to worry that I would say I got an infected Blood from a breeder. I DIDN"T. I should have bought my snake from a breeder, that is true..
It does explain why everyone sorta tiptoed around the subject & demanded proof positive. Which according to what you wrote, would be difficult even for a qualified herp vet.
As for other names that would reduce the hysteria about it, I don't know. If my snake actually died from this ( I only give this a 25% probability BTW) it almost seemed like the "dumb" stage of Rabies in a mammal. A really lousy comparison, but that is what came to my mind.

Sincerely,
Matthew

I've been working with reptiles for almost 50 years, and freezing has shown to be the most humane way of putting cold-blooded animals down. When most tropical animals reach the 40's or less, there is very little feeling, and certainly dulls all of their senses. My reptile vet agrees and uses it also. Actually, the same thing happens in humans in the water.
-----
1.1 Blackheaded pythons
2.3 Woma
4.2 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.1 Bloods
2.2 IJ Carpets
1.0 Coastal Carpets
1.3 Macklotts
1.2 F2 Carpondros
2.0 Jungle Carpet
0.1 Carpondro
1.1 Brazilian Rainbow boas
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

I have been using it on mice, along with suffocation. And I don't find that humane..
I do think that for Ectotherms, its a reasonably easy death. I mean lethal injection might be best, but I doubt the average heper wants to pay to have an ill specimen put down.
Anyway, we have been deviating from the main topic of this thread a little, so...
How serious is this illnes, as in how widespread is the actual problem. Quite rare or just hush-hush? Again, I have no intention of accusing anyone. I just want to learn about this disease..

Sincerely,
Matthew

I agree, freezing is the most HUMANE way to euthanize a herp. I, too have almost 50 years experience....TC

I think Tom and I remember many years ago the effect it had on Burmese, mostly. Late 70's, before it was called IBD. All we knew then was that it was deadly, and that very few animals survived it. I had one Burmese survive, with neurological problems afterwards. I forget when Elliot Jacobson started his work on it. It wiped out whole collections of Boids.

By the time the "stargazing" manifested itself, the animals was as good as dead. Which is why it scares people who have similar kinds of genetic defects in Spider Ball Pythons and the Jaguar Carpets.

I think I'm a bit older than Tom, lol...but not much.
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1.1 Blackheaded pythons
2.3 Woma
4.2 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.1 Bloods
2.2 IJ Carpets
1.0 Coastal Carpets
1.3 Macklotts
1.2 F2 Carpondros
2.0 Jungle Carpet
0.1 Carpondro
1.1 Brazilian Rainbow boas
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

I remember that time well, We had NO idea what was going on or if to buy or not to buy herps. By the way quit braggin about your age..lol...TC

Well, whatever took out my Blood, it died about 3 days after starting the Stargazing or whatever..
I can well imagine the horror for those who lost Burms or other early boids, to see anything even remotely resembling "Stargazing"!

Matthew

I have also heard that freezing ectotherms is painful...especially boids. I don't know where the data came from as to how it was possible to tell that they were in pain, but it has been noted.

As for the numbing effect of the cold, and the slowing of the body's systems, I have been told that the most humane and effective way of "home euthanasia" is to refrigerate the ectotherm before freezing, which will allow its nervous system to shut down and go numb prior to freezing.
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"He who would stifle debate rather than engage in it, does so at the expense of his integrity and credibility"

Mike Curtin

I have my doubts as to how much pain a boid being frozen would actually feel..
Its a shame this disease leaves the herper no other recourse..

Matthew

Personally, I lean to con-genital birth defect in his CNS, but who knows? And the outcome was still the same..
The little I have found on snake IBD supports euthanasia as the only humane thing to do for an infected animal.

Sincerely,
Matthew

It is just about the worst disease. There is a disease that may it comes from snake mites(not positive) It is a disease that affects the nervous system and may cause your snake to "stargaze"and left its upper body up and may tip its self over. your snake can't eat because the disease is messing with the nerves and can't control its self.

Those are some of the symptoms I definitely saw. Well, I won't say that is what this was, but I'd be terrified of seeing those behaviors in a Python again!

Matthew

Excellant article by Elliot Jacobson himself on the disease. December issue, I just received it.
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1.1 Blackheaded pythons
2.3 Woma
4.2 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.1 Bloods
2.2 IJ Carpets
1.0 Coastal Carpets
1.3 Macklotts
1.2 F2 Carpondros
2.0 Jungle Carpet
0.1 Carpondro
1.1 Brazilian Rainbow boas
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

OK, my latest issue is November, but I'll be on the lookout for Decembers ( I no longer suscribe, just get it at Hastings or Pet Co. ...)

Matthew