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Does anyone work with or know of anyone who works with thorn scrub rats? They have peaked my interest as of late.

Matt Kauffman

>>Does anyone work with or know of anyone who works with thorn scrub rats? They have peaked my interest as of late.
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>>Matt Kauffman

I may be wrong, as usual, but isn't the thornscrub just another name for the meahllmorum?

I have a 50/50 meahllie/corn and I believe, through photos, that at least a couple of my "emoryis" may in fact be meahllies but I'm not sure. As far as people working strictly with meahllies, isn't T Brock?
Not sure there either.
so in other words....I can't help you at all, sorry.....LOL

these pics are of one of my "emoryis" I think is actually a meahllie.
Any thoughts from you emoryi experts.
Please

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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

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Yes, you are correct Jimmy. The alias name "Thorn Scrub" is just a slang term for meahllmorum.

These aren't really my "forte", but from what I understand, meahllmorum has less distict checkering in the throat area, and 45 or less saddles, as well as being somewhat darker. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Yeah, Jimmy I should have been more specific and written meallmorum or "meallies" as I've heard them refered to as. That one in the photo does look a little like a meally. Like the other post said, they don't have as much ventral checkering and they also tend to grow larger. At any rate that rat snake you have there is a beauty. There is also an arguement to be made that they are the same as emori, just the southern-most race.

Matt Kauffman

True,....similar to the situation with "Rosy Rats", formerly(E.g.rosacea) otherwise known as "Keys" corns, and MANY other snakes for that matter.

In any case, both of these are very note worthy of having distinctly different looks, whether they are recognized taxonomically or not. I've always been one of those to keep distinct types in as true a form as possible, regardless of their taxonomic status, and although certain scientists will disagree with some of these, most hobbyists always understand exactly what they are when they are referred to and appreciate the difference(s).

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I totally agree Doug. I even like to keep snakes locall specific if I can. I don't want to open a can of worms, but I like to see snakes in their purist form. Thats just my opoinion.

Matt Kauffman

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Like the other post said, they don't have as much ventral checkering and they also tend to grow larger.

Actually, meahllmorum don't get as big as other western guttata type rats. The biggest of the guttata group in my experience are the slowinski from eastern Texas. I have seen a lot of those over 5 feet and I caught a 6 footer once (73" actually).

This big "slowinski" from east Texas was 5 feet long and meaner than dirt -

The south Texas ones (which would be the true meahllmorum) are lighter colored generally and rarely exceed 4 feet. They are also more slender than East Texas snakes. I don't have a good photo of one (even though they are abundant), but check Gus Renfro's recent post on the field herping forum.
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Chris Harrison
San Antonio, Texas

Yeah slowinski rats do get big. I was talking about comparing emoryi and meahllmorum. From what I understand the meallies in Neuces County, Tx can get over five feet. Some specimens also have kind of bug eyes and split blotches. This all from someone who has never actually seen one in person, so what do I know? I do know that I like the pics I've seen and would love to work with them.
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Matt Kauffman

>>Yeah slowinski rats do get big. I was talking about comparing emoryi and meahllmorum. From what I understand the meallies in Neuces County, Tx can get over five feet. Some specimens also have kind of bug eyes and split blotches. This all from someone who has never actually seen one in person, so what do I know? I do know that I like the pics I've seen and would love to work with them.
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>>Matt Kauffman

the split blothes was something I had read somewhere as well, which made me wonder about the one I pictured.

my favorite female emoryi

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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

She is very nice. Love that subtle beauty.
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Matt Kauffman

>>The south Texas ones (which would be the true meahllmorum) are lighter colored generally and rarely exceed 4 feet. They are also more slender than East Texas snakes. I don't have a good photo of one (even though they are abundant), but check Gus Renfro's recent post on the field herping forum.
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>>Chris Harrison
>>San Antonio, Texas

Hi Chris, normally I would not disagree with you - but... In my experience, meahllmorum in Nueces and Kleberg Counties COMMONLY exceed four feet, and all of my adults, including the 2004 offspring from LTC Nueces County adults are at least over four feet long. Also, these are not slender snakes, and at least three of my adults weigh over a kilogram (they are not fat either).

Here are some large Nueces county meahllmorum
1) Old male from western Nueces County at 58 inches long, 1 kilogram
2) BIG south Corpus Christi (Nueces County) male at exactly five feet long, and well over a kilogram in weight.
3) Big female from south Corpus, measured 54 inches long two years ago, so may be close to (or at) five feet by now.

-Toby Brock

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Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research

>>Does anyone work with or know of anyone who works with thorn scrub rats? They have peaked my interest as of late.
>>
>>Matt Kauffman

Toby Brock works with Nueces Co. ratsnakes. His thornscrub rats have reached 60+ inches, and he seems to breed some every year. Thornscrubs are just a name given to Southern Great Plains ratsnakes, Pantherophis emoryi meahllmorum. It is an Emory's rat, but somewhat distinctive, and I think deserving of a subspecies designation.

Locality specimens are nice. I have worked with Brazos Island thornscrubs. This is a female I've had...

She was kinda dark, but some have nice light colors.

I also have a reverse-striped female from the Freer area and 1.2 from La Salle Co. Each group is somewhat distinctive. Here's a female from La Salle Co....

Cheers...TC

Thanks. Those look great.
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Matt Kauffman

>>Does anyone work with or know of anyone who works with thorn scrub rats? They have peaked my interest as of late.
>>
>>Matt Kauffman

Hello Matt, I just noticed this thread (been out of town a few days). As others have mentioned, "thornscrub" is a casual term for the southern form of emoryi, Pantherophis emoryi meahllmorum, and are also known as "meahllies" by some of us enthusiasts. I work with a small collection of Nueces County, TX meahllmorum and I usually produce at least one clutch per year, but I did not breed them this year. My adults are all quite large, and range between four and five feet long and weigh up to a kilogram. It is very common for this form to get this large in coastal south Texas.

-Toby Brock

Photos:
1) Big, old female LTC which is (+)4.5 ft long, and over a kilogram.
2) One of her '04 offspring as a subadult (1.5 - 2 yr old)
3) Another LTC female, when she was approximately 2 - 3 years old

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Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research

Those are really cool. Let me know next year. I'm in no hurry. I've got enough on my hands for a while. Thanks for the post.
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Matt Kauffman