Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have been using this size box for single hatchling snake shipments so far but I'm concerned with cooler weather coming up and the need for heat packs that I won't be able to use the smaller box - as I'd assume a standard heat pack would make them too hot.

Has anyone ever done any testing on heat packs in this small of a box?

What about the smaller hand warmer heat packs anyone ever try those?

Just use the bigger boxes since we know those work?
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Tosha
JET Pythons

>>I have been using this size box for single hatchling snake shipments so far but I'm concerned with cooler weather coming up and the need for heat packs that I won't be able to use the smaller box - as I'd assume a standard heat pack would make them too hot.
>>
>>Has anyone ever done any testing on heat packs in this small of a box?
>>
>>What about the smaller hand warmer heat packs anyone ever try those?
>>
>>Just use the bigger boxes since we know those work?
>>-----
>>Tosha
>> JET Pythons
>>
>>

Tosha - I tested this out the other night. Our temps are dipping into the low 50's/high 40's at night, so I put a 7x7x6 box outside packed just as I would pack it, with a probe in the snake bag and a 1 heat pad. The temperature stayed a fairly consistent 86 degrees all night. I thought my little experiment was a success and I shipped out a snake yesterday with this exact set-up. I made sure the heat pad was not in direct contact at all with the snake. It all should have gone fine, but it turned out to be my first DOA EVER. I still do not know what the cause of the DOA is and I am trying hard to get more details out of the person (pictures, etc...). I will never ship in that size of box again with a heat pad though just to be safe. I'm sticking to the next size up. I'm not trying to scare you, but I'm concerned now that a box that size doesn't give enough room for error if the heat pad happens to be a really toasty one. I still do not know that that was the problem yet, but to be safe, I'm using the larger boxes on some shipments I have going out today.
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Liann

Liann,

Sorry to hear about the DOA. You did not mention how the heat pad was setup. Were there any external holes in the box to get oxygen? My 1st thought is that the snake overheated. We forget that these guys are exposed to varying temperature extremes during a trip: 2 hours in a hot/cold truck, 3 hours in a hot/cold staging area, temp-controlled or not cargo hold, etc. While the outside temp may have been 40 degrees, your snake may not have been exposed to that low temp. I believe reptiles can withstand extreme colds far better than extreme heat. I try not to use a heat pack if at all possible.

My 2nd thought is that the heat pack used up too much oxygen for such a little space. Personally, I would not use a heat pack for a box of that size.

3rd thought: Maybe you didn't do anything wrong with the packing.

Thanks for posting though - it may help someone in the future and that's a good thing.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

>>Liann,
>>
>>Sorry to hear about the DOA. You did not mention how the heat pad was setup. Were there any external holes in the box to get oxygen? My 1st thought is that the snake overheated. We forget that these guys are exposed to varying temperature extremes during a trip: 2 hours in a hot/cold truck, 3 hours in a hot/cold staging area, temp-controlled or not cargo hold, etc. While the outside temp may have been 40 degrees, your snake may not have been exposed to that low temp. I believe reptiles can withstand extreme colds far better than extreme heat. I try not to use a heat pack if at all possible.
>>
>>My 2nd thought is that the heat pack used up too much oxygen for such a little space. Personally, I would not use a heat pack for a box of that size.
>>
>>3rd thought: Maybe you didn't do anything wrong with the packing.
>>
>>Thanks for posting though - it may help someone in the future and that's a good thing.
>>-----
>>Jay A. Martin
>>Jay Martin Reptiles

Thanks Jay, I hope it helps someone too because personally I'm a basket case over it. I wish now I hadn't used one at all. The one I did use was only a 12 hour pad and I just intended for it to keep the box warm during the night. The heat pad was taped to the top left of the lid. I had the deli cup in the very bottom of the box with about 3-4 inches of peanuts on top between the cup and the heat pad. The person who received the snake said that the box smelled when he opened it, so I can only assume it got too hot because there's no other reason a snake would start smelling in such a short period of time. I ran the exact same scenario the night before and the pad never got that hot. It's like you said though, they go from one environment to the next, so you really have no idea how long the box is even exposed to cold temperatures, so even testing it outside isn't going to tell you the whole story. For now, I'll stick with the larger boxes to be safe.
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Liann

>>>>Liann,
>>>>
>>>>Sorry to hear about the DOA. You did not mention how the heat pad was setup. Were there any external holes in the box to get oxygen? My 1st thought is that the snake overheated. We forget that these guys are exposed to varying temperature extremes during a trip: 2 hours in a hot/cold truck, 3 hours in a hot/cold staging area, temp-controlled or not cargo hold, etc. While the outside temp may have been 40 degrees, your snake may not have been exposed to that low temp. I believe reptiles can withstand extreme colds far better than extreme heat. I try not to use a heat pack if at all possible.
>>>>
>>>>My 2nd thought is that the heat pack used up too much oxygen for such a little space. Personally, I would not use a heat pack for a box of that size.
>>>>
>>>>3rd thought: Maybe you didn't do anything wrong with the packing.
>>>>
>>>>Thanks for posting though - it may help someone in the future and that's a good thing.
>>>>-----
>>>>Jay A. Martin
>>>>Jay Martin Reptiles
>>
>>Thanks Jay, I hope it helps someone too because personally I'm a basket case over it. I wish now I hadn't used one at all. The one I did use was only a 12 hour pad and I just intended for it to keep the box warm during the night. The heat pad was taped to the top left of the lid. I had the deli cup in the very bottom of the box with about 3-4 inches of peanuts on top between the cup and the heat pad. The person who received the snake said that the box smelled when he opened it, so I can only assume it got too hot because there's no other reason a snake would start smelling in such a short period of time. I ran the exact same scenario the night before and the pad never got that hot. It's like you said though, they go from one environment to the next, so you really have no idea how long the box is even exposed to cold temperatures, so even testing it outside isn't going to tell you the whole story. For now, I'll stick with the larger boxes to be safe.
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>>Liann

I forgot to mention that there was a vent in the lid of the stirofoam liner and I also had a small strip of cardboard taped to the flaps of the box so that when I closed the box, there was still a crack on either side for air, so I doubt that oxygen was an issue.
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Liann

We ship when its 20* out in the winter and use a 40 hours heat pack in a standard box and it works good, the animals arrive warm but not hot. In a smaller box you are going to have a harder time separating the animal from the heat, thus risking cooking it. The smaller the heat pack the hotter they get, and get hot fast. You could try a 60 hour heat pack and wrap it with paper. The thought on that is they have a 20-30 hour time frame to reach peak temps so you would have a mild temp during time the box is in transit.

When in doubt use a bigger box.
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J&J REPTILES
www.jnjreptiles.com
sales@jnjreptiles.com
(207)479-6658

Wow Liann I am sorry about the DOA that is awful. Thank you so much for sharing!

I am glad that I asked -- I might still run a few tests with the hand warmers but I think for now I'll stick with the bigger boxes.
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Tosha
JET Pythons

I think everyone is forgetting where the packages might be going. Going from a cool location to a warm location, I wouldn't even think of using a heat pack. Cargo trucks usually hold heat well unless temps are to a low extreme. Chances are, the box will not reach "cold" enough temps before it arrives at it's "warm" location. I have used 10x8x7 boxes for many years with only one DOA.....buyer insisted on me shipping to him when it was only 5 above zero. Keep an eye on weather on both ends and use good judgement. If temps are above 65 on either end, I do not use heat packs. If they are above 85, I do use a cold pack. I would rather the snakes be cool for a few hours than too hot. Good luck.

Brandon
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www.brandonosbornereptiles.com

definately not in a 7x7--

I used a 40 hour heat pack in a 7x7x6 box that was shipped yesterday and arrived perfectly fine today.
The nighttime temps were dropping to 40 so I put one in.
I had the snake in a deli cup with shredded aspen. The heat pack was wrapped in newspaper and on one side of the box.

I work at a reptile dealer here in So Cal and we use a 40 hr heat pack(wrapped in newspaper at the bottom) in our small boxes (10x9x9) when the night time lows are below 55f. I wouldn`t use heat in a 7x7x6 box. And i always use ventilation holes, even when shipping to locations as low as 20f. The heat packs tend to suck up alot of the oxygen.

If only this thread had been posted yesterday... I found out a little more tonight. He said that the snake was not overly warm and that it was plenty far away from the heat pad. So we think it was the lack of oxygen. I usually poke several holes in the top lid, but only had a few ones on this box and I think the heat pad must have blocked them. That may have made all the difference. A VERY hard lesson learned. And something that I will NOT let happen again. I get ill just thinking about it.
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Liann

On the 0xygen issue. The cardboard boxes allow for air to get into the box, and the styrofoam inserts are usually not air tight, so I would have a hard time believing it died of lack of air.

I shipped an adult male Axanthic yesterday, via FedEx, from San Diego area to CT. It was in the mid 80's on my end, and lows to 50 degrees on the East Coast, so I put in a heat pack, and he arrived fine. The box was a 7x7x12 I think, with the heat pack on the side, with a snake in a snake bag. Has anyone shipped a box with a min max thermometer in it, to see how cold it really gets, or how hot? Use a bigger box, pay the extra shipping, get the snake their safe, and hope FedEx is late, and you get your shipping back

Dave

>Has anyone shipped a box with a min max thermometer in it, to see how cold it really gets, or how hot? Use a bigger box, pay the extra shipping, get the snake their safe, and hope FedEx is late, and you get your shipping back

I used to do it regularly, but people would not return my thermometers so I quit doing it. I used one that measured inside the box and one outside the box. Almost always less than 10 degree difference and that's shipping summer or winter. FedEx has always been good about protecting my packages.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

I doubt it was do to lack of air. During the winter I rarely put any type of holes at all in the shipping containers and have never had a problem, even when using 2 heat packs in a 12x9x6.

Eric
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www.ESReptiles.com

I shipped for years and never put any holes in the box. But then my boxes were never that small - even for a hatchling.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

I`ve been doing this for 20 years. Back in the day i used to make judgement calls on putting air holes or not depending on the weather here and the destination city. I`ve found that i`ve never had a problem with shipments due to the fact that i used air holes. But i have had problems(very,very seldom) with boxes that i didn`t put air holes in. So for the past 15 years or so i always put air holes in my boxes to be on the safe side. I ship alot of orders out (70 today alone) and i go with what i know.

and just a LITTLE more heat is needed, I have (many times) put a heat pack ON TOP of the styro lid of the small box (between the styro and the cardboard lid), and cut a small hole, a couple of inches in diameter, into the styro lid. I would only do this when I am just shipping one small deli cup, which can be in the bottom of the box. Then I stuff newspaper, and sometimes even a piece of bubblewrap, between the deli and the heated lid. The hole allows some heat to filter down, but has never been enough to cause a problem so far. I often ask customers about the box temps on receipt, and it has been favorable so far.

However, I would only use this method when temps are not totally critical. I ship mostly corns, which can take a bit of cold. For corns, I do this when destination temps are expected to dip between 32F - 45F, and daytime highs at the destination are no more than 65F. For colder temps, I use a bigger box and put the heat pack inside. I

I have only shipped pythons in warm weather, so haven't decided yet on what I would do for various temps for those guys.

The problem is that you never know what temps they will be exposed to. It could be 25F outside, but they may have been kept at indoor temps almost the whole time. So it is really easy to overheat.

I am in the process of getting my FedEx waiver, to ship snakes. I have shipped them over the past 4 years, ALWAYS being 100% upfront with what I am shipping, writing live harmless reptile on the boxes, on each side, telling the person who is checking in the box that it is a snake, when they ask me what I am shipping...the last time, about a month ago, the lady would not let me ship. Said I needed a waiver, which I had heard of, but since I have an account with them, they always have told me I do not have a RESTRICTION on my account, so let me ship. So, I am in the process of shipping my box to them to let them inspect the box and my shipping procedures...I guess that is what they do. Anyhow, to my point, since I am close to my Fedex office, I might ask for a quick tour, and bring my temp gun, and just talk to them about how they keep the snake boxes in the big FedEx hubs. Then, I might try to go see the FedEx hanger or warehouse or shipping depot down at the San Diego Airport, and or Ontario Airport, and do the same. Maybe talk to the people who know, and ask about temps on the plane, temps or locations where they place the live animals when they get moved from truck to plane, then plane to truck, etc......If I do it, I will post my results.

Dave

>>I am in the process of getting my FedEx waiver, to ship snakes. I have shipped them over the past 4 years, ALWAYS being 100% upfront with what I am shipping, writing live harmless reptile on the boxes, on each side, telling the person who is checking in the box that it is a snake, when they ask me what I am shipping...the last time, about a month ago, the lady would not let me ship. Said I needed a waiver, which I had heard of, but since I have an account with them, they always have told me I do not have a RESTRICTION on my account, so let me ship. So, I am in the process of shipping my box to them to let them inspect the box and my shipping procedures...I guess that is what they do. Anyhow, to my point, since I am close to my Fedex office, I might ask for a quick tour, and bring my temp gun, and just talk to them about how they keep the snake boxes in the big FedEx hubs. Then, I might try to go see the FedEx hanger or warehouse or shipping depot down at the San Diego Airport, and or Ontario Airport, and do the same. Maybe talk to the people who know, and ask about temps on the plane, temps or locations where they place the live animals when they get moved from truck to plane, then plane to truck, etc......If I do it, I will post my results.
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>>Dave

Dave - That would be AWESOME if you could do that!!! Let us know what you find out. I'm mainly a lurker here, but I'll keep an eye out for an update.
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Liann