Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I got a pair 08 of jani back in aug. The male is doing great so far. The female ate twice toward the end of aug. and then went into a shed. She had refued a couple meals prior to her shed, so I totally left her alone for three weeks. During that time she shed and a few days later accepted a ft fuzzie. I was happy,BUT I just couldn't leave well enough alone. Five days after she ate I handled her, just to have an up close look, since I hadn't held her in about a month(when I clean cage I just remove her tuperware hide, which she is in, and replace it). Well, shortly after holding her she regurged her partially digested fuzzie. After all I have read and been warned about it happened and it was my fault. I know what steps to take at this point, and I realize that this is a snake that I just can't mess with for a long time. My question is: Does anyone have experience with jani regurges and is this the beginning of a bad cycle or is there hope? I have had this happen a few times with other species over the years and they turned out alright(just isolated intances). I can't beleive I made such a rookie mistake.
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Matt Kauffman

I just purchased some jani also. I was told not to feed them big meals. If your jani was only born this year, maybe a fuzzie is too big hence after five days it wasn't digested yet. I would definately wait to feed her and when you do feed her only a small pinkie. Keep your temps mid 70s for the cool side.

I thought the same thing, but she has refused every pinkie I have offered. I haven't offered live pinks though. Thaks for the response.
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Matt Kauffman

It is a coin flip at best. The regurgitation spiral is a tough one to pull out of with these snakes. They are so touchy as babies, you wonder how they make it in the wild. The adults seem to be bulletproof. Very strange indeed. Good luck!

I've had regurgitation happen recently with a yearling female bull of mine a two times. She is a nervous snake on the whole and her name of "[bleep]y" is well deserved. She even regurgitated while I was looking at her. So I did reduce the size of her meals to small rats instead of mediums, put a heating pad under the cage, and made sure she was not held for a while. I also made sure to not disturb her directly that often. She is fine and has good girth, I realized that occasionally she might regurg but its nothing to worry about with mine providing she kept most of the other food down I fed her. In the last case, she had eaten two rats and regurged a small pile of goop so I was not that worried, and she ate just fine a week later. Now I have a gray banded king that I fed 4 mice to the first time, after she hibernated, and she regurged 3 of them. She was fine and now I only feed her one mouse a feeding and that keeps good weight on her. Perhaps desert snakes might be eating smaller meals in general.
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I would think that 5 days after eating would be easily enough time. It is true that they thrive more at cooler temps than other pits, but you may want a small area that is warm. My Jani are doing great right around the 78 degree mark. As for the regurge thing. My male is smaller than the female because he regurged occasionally when young. Just give them the appropriate amount of time and feed them another fuzzy but slightly smaller.

Scott Robinson

Yes, I thought five days was time enough too. Maybe my math was a little off. She ate on the 19th and I held her on the 23rd(4 days). But still, I only held her for less than a minute. She is just so nervous. I just took a measurement and it was exactly 78.4 degrees in her hide. I hope there is not some other underlining problem. Time will tell. Maybe I need to get bigger encloser and add a warmer spot. The male on the other hand is thriving. Thanks for the encouraging words.
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Matt Kauffman

that perhaps the reason that they are a bit sensative and prone to regurgeatation as babies is that they do not have the correct balance fo flora in there guts? think about it, in the wild they would be exposed to a wide variety of bacteria in there enviroment and in there food items. in many instances in the ecosystem animals get a good portion of there digestive bacteria from there food items, and from there enviroment. there have been a great many studies as of late that have come out even in humans compareing those born (we are talking humans here so just bare with me) in captivity (new york, other big citys very little bacteria exposure from the natural enviroment) and those born in the wild (on a farm, in the country, where they grow up playing in the dirt, eating sand, dog food, putting random things in there mouths, so forth.) and they have found that the humans that had the greatest exposure to naturally occureing enviromental bacteria such as that found in dirt, grass, stuff following a country life style. had less health issues and a stronger immune system and a higher metabolism. its just something to think about...i wonder if perhaps a rodent injected with a fauna suppliment such as that given to humans in the form of yogert (activia) or something like that given to birds or farm animals to balance out there digestive bacteria would be benifical to a reptile as well. just something to think about you know, hell i had a great year on hatchlings, i have pits and rat snakes comeing out of my ears this year, might as well experiment a little, i will keep who ever is interstead in the developments informed if they so wish.

Reguards,

Herptophile
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To you im just the crazy snake guy, but to some I'm a 'Herper'.

very interesting food for thought. We know that an absence of these beneficial gut floral and faunal organisms can cause problems in tortoise and that veterinarians often recommend "seeding" the guts of young captive tortoises by keeping them with established, healthy, adult animals.

As you noted, these beneficial organisms are fairly common in the environment even in what might be considered "domestic" environments so generally the seeding occurs w/o much help. I would suggest that in cases of regurgitation issues such as this, we may have "perfect storm" events that set the animals up for failure. I would implicate possible imbalances in gastrointestinal organisms (as opposed to a lack of organisms), or virulent strains of gut organisms, coupled with the young, captive animal's inability to engage in the range of behaviors that might allow it to fight said imbalances. Generally speaking, handling a snake after a meal is not a best practice however it should not, under normal circumstances, create these sorts of problems.

If the animal's survival is a priority and resources are available, the next step would be a visit to a herpetologically competent veterinarian. Don't assume that every DVM will be trained adequately to be capable of dealing with this case, so ask around and shop until you find one that is trained in reptilian medicine. Get some feces under a microscope and see what is there, red blood cells? white blood cells? pathogens? bacteria? Diagnosis can be troublesome and expensive. A veterinarian can provide supportive care during the illness and give the animal a better fighting chance. Be prepared to accept that not every snake hatched or born will thrive despite great care.

I say this often, but will use this platform to chant my mantra......Do whatever you can to provide your snakes with a wide range of temperature options...20 degrees. Give them the opportunity to adjust their body temperature to their own very specific needs. And keep in mind that their optimal temp may vary with age, and general condition, i.e. a sick snake may have different temp needs.

Good luck, don't stress, and don't treat with medications with out a veterinarian's supervision.

Keep us posted

Thanks, I'll try not to, and I won't.
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Matt Kauffman

hmm.... that is some food for thought. i have wondered several times how the more "fragile" ones make it so readily in the wild. maybe... in the hope to keep them healthy and in a sterile environment we might actually be depriving them of needed bacteria to help them cope with digestion as juvies? i think that is a very interesting thoery and would appreciate being kept up to date on the results. thanks for sharing.

as far as the guy with the regurging hatchling, i wish you luck. i'm sorry but i am a little skeptical about herp vets. i had a hybino bull that got sick last year. after repeated trips, meds, and some pricey bills it still ended up in the freezer. maybe like ginter said i didn't choose the right dmv or it wasn't destined to make it. i trully hope your pit pulls through. keep the faith....

jonathan