Reptile & Amphibian Forums

i have a 6 year old normal ball and a baby pastel ball, both males, and a leucistic rat snake. i keep them all in the same cage. i have a baby spider female on the way that i plan on keeping in the same cage. its 4 ft long, so there is enough room for all of them. by the time my spider is old enough to breed i plan on getting rid of the rat snake. my husband was wondering if the 2 males would get territorial and fight around mating time with the female in there too. but she is so much younger and will be smaller than the normal ball, i dont think it will cause a problem, but i need advice on that too.

I would buy an inexpensive rack system, or a Vision type stacking cage system ASAP. It is not just about room to roam in the cage...5 Balls are ok, same size, same species...mixing species is never a good idea. Do rat snakes and Balls need the same heat, and humidity? What about feeding? Get a large shoebox type rack system, and keep one snake in your cage...maybe the rat snake.

Dave

i only have 2 balls, soon to be 3. the rat snake i am getting rid of once the others get bigger, maybe sooner. i live in a camper and dont have room for a rack, plus i find them cruel.

You find rack systems cruel...but you have no issues cramming that many snakes into one cage where they have to compete for heat and hide spots.

Something seems a little off there...
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"What is man without the beasts?
If all the beasts were gone,
men would die from great loneliness of spirit.
For what happens to the beasts,
soon happens to men.
All things are connected."

-Chief Seattle (Duwamish Tribe)

i have hiding spaces for every snake and the baby ball and the rat snake are both very small right now. they have plenty of room

I STRONGLY recommend you you keep your babies in a different cage than your adult ball and a large rat snake. It has nothing to do with the size of the cage, it`s just that WAY too many things can go wrong. I also suggest you keep the rat snake seperate from any any balls. I wouldn`t worry about male rivalry, i would be more worried about a baby spider or pastel being accidently crushed by a large ball. Or even worse, being eaten by a hungry rat snake. After balls eat they still have the smell of the prey on their bodies and rat snakes aren`t known to be picky feeders.

Although rare it does happen.. Is it worth the risk to you?

http://www.rcreptiles.com/forum/about1343.html

i am getting rid of the rat snake

"Posted by: Shadow4108 at Sun Sep 28 17:12:42 2008 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

Although rare it does happen.. Is it worth the risk to you?

http://www.rcreptiles.com/forum/about1343.html"

Did you not look at that link? Both balls, both the same size. If a ball can eat another one the same size, your normal would have no problem eating your little spider. The problem isn't just the rat snake.

If you have room for a 4 ft cage...you have room for a small rack. The floor space taken up is the same amount because they are stacked...so you can't say you don't have the room...
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Luke Martin
Bronze Serpent Reptiles

the 4 foot cage is on top of something else, and i would not put a snake in a cage any shorter than 3-4 ft, plus those plastic containers are so shallow, my snakes like to climb

for 6 months now, and to date I haven't seen anyone this opposed to taking some of the professionals' advice.

the advice is biased and uninformed. they dont like my setup because they have never seen it. i didnt ask for this attack, i asked for advice that i still havent gotten. plus these people arent even listening to me. from the begining ive said im getting rid of the rat snake, but all anyone cares about is that i have the rat snake.

I wouldn't take it as an attack...but as sound advice. I doubt many folks that share information on here are going to give advice on how to propagate when they don't believe the potential breeder is offering satisfactory living conditions for the animals.

Again, I am new too, but also know that some of the people that are responding to you have been doing this for a LONG time and are not uninformed.

How is my advice biased and uninformed when I have experience in seeing all the problems that I'm warning you of? You have 4 snakes...I've been keeping and breeding snakes for many years now. I have experienced and learned from others experiences on how to properly care for my snakes. It doesn't matter if I've seen your setup or not, its not the correct way to keep snakes whether you're getting rid of the rat snake or not. You are being very close minded because you think you are right yet you are very wrong. We aren't giving you the advice you asked for because thats not the advice you need at the moment. You have bigger problems than worrying about how to breed snakes. You don't need to be breeding snakes with the way you've got things going in the first place.
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Luke Martin
Bronze Serpent Reptiles

i am going to breed snakes whether you people like it or not, i am asking for a good way to do it. i only have 3 snakes now, if people would pay attention to me. i will only have 4 snakes for a month. then i will only have 3 ball pythons, one species of snake. im not wrong. and even if i am, i will breed my snakes anyway. you guys can help me or not, i dont care.

I am giving you a good way to do it. You need to keep them separate first! You'll never be able to breed them if they don't make it to adulthood because one snake got sick and got the rest sick or one decided it was still hungry after eating and can still smell food so decides the other snake looks pretty tasty. Why would I try to give you bad advice? I love snakes and don't like them to be sick or ill treated. Sorry I have a passion for my snakes and doing things RIGHT in order to keep them as healthy and happy as possible.
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Luke Martin
Bronze Serpent Reptiles

One other thing that many have failed to point out is that you will have much better success breeding snakes if they are not housed together most of the time anyway. So if you do not separate them for reasons of proper care and husbandry (not that I am advocating this. All of our snakes are housed individually and I would never recommend otherwise), it is still in your best interest to house them separately if you do eventually want them to breed successfully.

-Andrew Varela

The posts in this forum stay up forever! There is a search function, that anyone can use to find this thread in a month, or a year. You say you are going to breed your snakes, yet you have shown you cannot even provide the proper husbandry for the ones you have. Your future customers can come back and check you out here, and your attitude will not win them over, I can assure you of that. Your lack of husbandry skills and arraogance, will not win you any customers either.

What you should have done, is spend the Spider money on a nice small rack system. You said you find a rack cruel, but I am here to tell you, that the right sized rack, is actually benificial to your Balls. The Balls like it tight, they live in burrows in the wild, and need humidity, and a nice temp gradient. I would take your rat snake to the local pet store and trade it for feeder rats. OR, leave your rat snake in the cage, and put the balls in the rack you should be buying. If you do not like the racks, buy stackable cages.

As far as your breeding projects, are you going to skimp on the incubator, are you going to use aquarium rock as substrate...? You can breed Balls inexpensively, but you still need to do it right.

Trust me, get a rack or stackable cages, keep your animals in separate tubs, or put off breeding until you can house them correctly. I think with your attitude, and the people you have alienated here today, you may not get much help in your breeding endeavor, and I highly doubt you have any future customers here. We keep species specific enclosures, rat snakes, especially WC ones, can have disease or bugs that it can handle, but maybe a Ball cannot.

You are putting the cart before the horse.

Dave

everyone here has been so judgemental to me that they failed to tell me i even need an incubator. if everyone would just be nice to me then i would be nice to them. plus who says im selling the babies on kingsnake.com anyway?

YOU should know Ball lay eggs, and that YOU would NEED an incubator, since YOU should have done YOUR research before buying YOUR Spider. Don't even think of blaming anyone for YOUR shortcomings as a Ball owner. Own up, go away for a few months, and come back after reading all you can, and hope we forgot how you have acted today. I think you have dug your own grave...in this hobby, and as a breeder.

in the wild ball python eggs dont sit in an incubator. they sit in a burrow in the ground, not an electric incubator. and i TRIED to do research and couldnt find any helpful information, so i erroniously thought i could turn to "experienced" people here for help, or at least a link to a helpful site. thanks for correcting on that thought.

>>in the wild ball python eggs dont sit in an incubator. they sit in a burrow in the ground, not an electric incubator. and i TRIED to do research and couldnt find any helpful information, so i erroniously thought i could turn to "experienced" people here for help, or at least a link to a helpful site. thanks for correcting on that thought.

So does this mean you are going to hop on a plane and take your eggs to Africa?

Experienced people with GOOD advice have tried to help you...but you won't listen to reason.

You will get the same responses and advice no mattter what site you end up on.
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Charles Glaspie
http://www.myspace.com/coldthumb

can you honestly say you did good reseARCH?

If you think you did, I will spend 5 minutes of MY time, and post 5 websites that clearly outlines proper husbandry, and also breeding tricks and advice.

Goto google, type in - Ball python care
You will have 1 million results. I bet you 1 million dollars, one of them has your information.

Listen to these people, they will save your snakes in the long run, even if it sounds like they are not trying to.
THEY ARE!!

Get your snakes set up good, then choose if you are experienced enough to breed.

Good luck

Great...so you're going to breed your snakes and then do what with the babies? Cram then into your MASSIVE 4 foot cage?

Riiiiiiiight...
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"What is man without the beasts?
If all the beasts were gone,
men would die from great loneliness of spirit.
For what happens to the beasts,
soon happens to men.
All things are connected."

-Chief Seattle (Duwamish Tribe)

care sheets are written alot by biased people

care sheets are written alot by people that read other people's books /caresheets...

care sheets should be written by people that have kept balls (whatever) and had them, bred them and did it all over years and years.....and usually, killed alot of stuff in the process....

....2 males fight when they want

female gets bred before she is old enough

ratsnake ...well....he may or may not get the balls sick or get squished....but if the ratsnake falls in love with the ball female....oh my....what will we tell the children?.....honey....you don't have a long tail......you just take after your father.....???

.......................the list goes on......
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I'm sorry but the line you keep giving about not being able to find information pertaining to breeding and keeping ball pythons is not going to fly here, at least not with me. I'm not new to pythons, but I still have alot I can learn. I search these forums everyday looking for information and if you are in the beginning stages as you are, there is so much it would take you a while to read it all. Click on almost any big breeder in the buisness section and you will find information on breeding or almost anything else you want to know. Also, you can check out your local library or internet google search. You have been given several good sources, ie: the snake keeper and Ralph Davis to name only 2 of many! Also, there are numerous books that have been named to you. Most breeders on here be them big or small I have found to be the best sources for information. But they arent going to help someone with the attitude you posses. And with the attention your getting from this post and your attitude, they will remember you for a while. Take a while and read up, otherwise your likely to loose alot of money.

their are tons of websites and books that can do that, trusting somebody on here without following up with what a pro breeder or zoologist has said is flawed.

Shadow?......you mean me? and my attitude?..

well thanxx ayways.....glad you noticed.....

ummm.....the internet will teach anyone how to do anything......you can learn it all here....remembering is people's problem....

there are more 12 year old "ball breeders" now than the world ever needed.......and they know everything.....

people ask the same stupid questions....and I mean in life not on here....

..as for me...I like my attitude, thanxx again....LOL...and I don't need to learn anything........I have too many snakes thanxx......I am downsizing bigtime......too many babies....too much work....I get 600? 850? eggs a year....but thanxx anyways...../////........

I've had more things happen here than any book......you name it , I had it go right, and I had it go wrong....doing it all ways....wrongly or correctly.....between my friends around Pa and all.......we've bred it all........

......Have fun........

.....
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I'm sorry to confuse, but I wasn't talking about you at all. I'm sorry if I gave you that impression. i was talking to the original poster. (crazytank.. or whatever it was)
No hard feelings I hope.

....no sweat here......I love to vent after working like 14 to 16 hour days is all.......Ha!......

.....
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...it's reading! lol

The more things i learn online the more i realize just how many people are out there that just don't READ.
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Charles Glaspie
http://www.myspace.com/coldthumb

you got that right...and like I mention all the time.remember what they read or are told......

.........

when I got some books I read every word....glossary and pic credits (to see who's pics I knew).....index and all.....every word...twice.....(Ross' book and a few others...)...

now I just roll through the pics on alot of books ....LOL......sad.......

.......
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i've read through a couple breeder's websites on here, just cause I think there is something there I missed..LOL

it will be fine. Good luck with your projects, you for sure need house them in seperate cages. That way, when you introudce a male to a female after you have started to drop the temps you trigger a breeding response. Ralph Davis website has a good 'breeding recipe' to follow to get your balls to breed. I wouldnt get fired up about what folks have said on here and would encourage you to keep working hard with your animals, trial and error and eventually you will have it down to a a perfect science. A hungry snake is an angry snake, keep them well fed.

Ball Pythons spend most of their time in the wild in dark dark burrows, so the fact of the matter is they love a rack. It is warm, and dark, and they feel very secure. That is as close to simulating their natural environment as you can get, a burrow in Ghana Africa.

but apparently you're too prideful to admit that it's good advice. Google ball python housing and you will find multitudes of good info. Go to Ralph Davis' website, or go to the Barker's website, or go to the Sutherland's site, I guarantee they'll all say the same thing: they need to be housed separately.
The one thing I don't understand is how you think racks are cruel but keeping them in a very stressful environment is not in any way. Racks are not very expensive and they take up hardly any room. Buy one or build one because you need it!
You're husband is right, they need to be separated and have their own enclosures.

The Complete Ball Python by Kevin McCurley
Pythons of the World Volume 2 by Dave and Tracy Barker
The Reproductive Husbandry of Pythons and Boas by Richard Ross

-Andrew Varela

Well, I'm no "pro", but I have seen the result of two ball pythons in one tank. Sometimes it works, sometimes not so much....

One of my son's males goes by the name of "Hannibal", because he ate a female only slightly smaller than he was. Rare? Probably - but it happens.

Let's take the rat snake, with all its different needs, out of the picture. Now, you've got one fully adult six year old ball, another somewhat smaller male, and a tiny little female spider. So, the spider or the pastel gets a snack - will that big normal smell rat or mouse on them? Will he do anything about it?

Maybe - maybe not.

So now it's two years later. That sweet spider's about a year away from full maturity, but like a young teenage girl, she's starting to look and smell pretty attractive to the guys. There isn't an "age of consent" among snakes, but will she be able to pass those big ball python eggs?

At best, you're taking a lot of risks with this living situation. I wish you luck - you'll need it.

~Bruce

Nobody is going to give you the information you want because nobody in there right mind wants to see you bring more animals into this world that are going to be treated as horribly as the ones you already have. What exactly were you planning on doing if the eggs hatched? Have a dozen snakes living in the 4 foot aquarium?
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Tosha
JET Pythons

that the snakes will produce anyway. As everyone has already stated, your snakes will be stressed and on edge. It is a shame that you are being so closed minded. I think there is a lot to learn from everyone, but I don't think you really want advice...unless it suits your needs. EDUCATION, EDUCATION, EDUCATION is the key, please reconsider

Ball pythons Husbandry:

Ambient daytime temp: 80-85F (26.7-29.4 C)
Hot spot (basking spot) 90-95F (32.2-35 C)

Night time ambient can drop to 75-80F (23.9-26.7 C)

Humidity: 60-70% (or provide moist hide especially around shedding time)

Min. Sized enclosure for Juvenile ball housed alone
20" long by 10" wide (50.8 by 25.4 cm) minimum. Full sized adults should have cage 36" by 12" (91.4 cm long by 30.5 cm wide). This is floor space. Height isn't really important, as long as its high enough the snake can move over hides and water dishes without being wedged against the lid.

Rat Snake Husbandry (assuming its a Texas Rat snake)

Ambient temperatures of 74 - 82F
Hot spot about 85-90F

Min. sized enclosure should be at least 2/3rds the length of the ratsnake in length and a third in width.

I know you are getting rid of the rat snake but pointed out the husbandry requirements to show a 4' cage is not adequate housing for the number of snakes you have in there.

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Male ball pythons will wrestle and fight each other as soon as they reach breeding size/age. Male ball pythons tend not to eat either when fighting each other and chasing females to mate. Being constantly in the same cage with each other..your males are likely to starve to death trying to fight each other and mate.

You have a full grown male ball python with a baby male (the pastel). Even though you feed separately, prey scent lingering on the smaller ball could trigger a strike by the larger and you may find you have one very big ball python and no more pastel ball. Same thing when you add the female spider.
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Lets say all your ball pythons babies make it to maturity. Your female is going to end up being bred too young or not at a good weight, as the males will jump her as soon as she starts smelling like a mature female. Under weight and under aged females can produce fertile eggs, but have a much higher chance of dying, especially if you don't take out the eggs.

Ball pythons can incubate their own eggs, if the conditions in the cage are correct. But the female won't eat at all during incubation (around 60 days). So if the female is too young and not a good weight, gestation and incubation may deplete her so badly she won't survive to breed another year.

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If your goal is to successfully breed your snakes, and have healthy young and adults after breeding is over, follow the advice posted by the majority of people here and the various sources provided already.

We can point out the information that has worked successfully for all the top line breeders and the small hobbyist breeder over the years but if that isn't the information you want to hear, then there is no point for you to ask for advice.

Your big cage may seem perfect for all your snakes (current 3 with a 4th on its way, though it'll replace the rat snake, so back to three), even if you have plenty of hides in hot and cold sections of the cage so all can have their idea basking/cooling spot, you are risking your snakes in such a setup.

Also, since you feel racks are too small and cruel... once you have two full grown ball pythons that cage is too small to house them both. It is great for a single large adult ball python but once you have a second full grown male, you are going to have to remove at least one male. The cage isnt' really big enough for a large male and large female either (and do keep in mind female ball pythons tend to get larger...as big as 5' in some cases, and well over 4000g (8.8 pounds).

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You asked if the males fighting will be a problem?

Yes it will be a problem. It will risk the health of your snakes as both will be highly stressed, won't eat and eventually one or both will die.

Assuming of course your current adult male doesn't eat the smaller male and the female spider you have on its way before either can reach adult growth. But you can just buy more snakes right?

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PHLdyPayne

I know that you feel like every one is jumping down your throut but really do take the time to do some reading, it will be well worth it, if you are shoting for spider babies to start off and you have an average of 4-6 eggs, which you then turn around and sell for $300 each (I am just assuming your going to sell at lest most of the babies because your own living contitions do not allow for a very much room)that is 1200-1800. Now stop and think, that is good money that comes every year if done right; however, as some said if you house them together and on gets sick, they all get sick, which means you loose out on all. Also remember that your female does lay eggs and if she is too small when she gets breed you can get what is call egg bound. This can kill your female, which means no babies.

Now on a personal note, just think of the snakes you have, think of the fun you have playing with them and how much they mean to you and your family, if you have kids how much they are fasinated with them. Just stop and think... now how much do they mean to you. I personally would value my own snakes much more then what they are worth on the traid table, they are like family for my wife and I. So please take the time, spend some money on books, hit the library, read the blogs, and learn what you need to do to help these guys stay a live.

Keep asking questions, even if the people on KS seem like jerks at times, but don't relay only on them for your info. READ READ READ! Do not take it personal but at least take it into consideration. I have had people jump all over me at times but I took what I found to be a good point and tossed out the heated bs.

Take the time and learn, this is how we all started out!!!

Also you can let momma incubate the eggs but if you do you should give her a cage alone, this is every stressful on her and the reason people do it rather then momma is because it is faster and healthier for her. You will understand this more when you do more reading.

I hope this helps,
matt