Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Am I correct in stating that all the dark/black phase mexmex look 'normal' as a hatchling and as they age they turn dark/black?

Would this be an ontogenetic change or a similar process as to what happens to a melanistic thayeri as it ages?....

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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

They start out looking normal and get progressively darker with each shed. I have a pair of 06's that are just now looking really dark.

Greg

>>They start out looking normal and get progressively darker with each shed. I have a pair of 06's that are just now looking really dark.

Greg,
Post pics when you can....
Do you have any pics of them when they were hatchlings?
Would enjoy taking a look at them.
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

those are awesome John. Almost snagged some this past year but passed. Super nice. From my understanding it's an ontogenetic process over time, but are generally a tad darker at hatching. Best......
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Jerry Kruse

"I'm even starting to miss Frank at this point." -- Jerry Kruse, day 17 in solitary.

>>those are awesome John. Almost snagged some this past year but passed. Super nice. From my understanding it's an ontogenetic process over time, but are generally a tad darker at hatching. Best......

Thanks Jerry,
Unfortunately I do not have any black Mexmex anymore, but am looking around for some. I remember Kim Cartwright (Kim's Kolubrids) had some of the nicest. Ric Blair got them from Kim when she decided to get out of the business/hobby. I got her thayeri back then...
I think Don Shores, Jim Sargeant (Split Rock) and Ric Blair are the only known breeders to have them....I sure others do, but I haven't been able to find out who else breeds them...

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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

Why isn't the term 'hypermelanistic' used when referring to black phase Mex-Mex?
Also....I wonder if 'hets' can be made by pairing a dark Mex-Mex with a classic Mex-Mex?
It is increased melanism....Isn't it?
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

John,

I believe it may be more complicated than hypermelanism. The red saddles are not affected by the increased melanin in the way a melanistic thayeri or getula's are. Melanistic getula and thayeri are dark all over.

I would like to know more about the history of the line. It may just be the product of line breeding animals with the darkest background for generations. I'm not sure if this phase exists in the wild. Mine (got them from Jim Sargeant) will be ready to go next year and I'm excited about having a new project.

Greg

>>I believe it may be more complicated than hypermelanism. The red saddles are not affected by the increased melanin in the way a melanistic thayeri or getula's are. Melanistic getula and thayeri are dark all over.
>>
>>I would like to know more about the history of the line. It may just be the product of line breeding animals with the darkest background for generations. I'm not sure if this phase exists in the wild. Mine (got them from Jim Sargeant) will be ready to go next year and I'm excited about having a new project.

Melanistic thayeri and getula are just that melanistic, not hyper-melanistic.....I've never really seen a hypermelanistic thayeri or getula.
I do believe these were line bred, but I don't think Kim was the one who line bred for the 'black'. I believe it was Lloyd Lemke. Over the last decade or so I have seen numerous black mex mex and at least 75% could be traced back to Lloyd. I am sure the other were from his line as well, but some breeders were not able to prove this. I talked to Kim about hers (Ric Blair's now) and they traced back to Lloyd. At least that is what she said. I never talked to Ric Blair about his Mex mex. I wonder if he talked to Kim about their lineage.
I still wanna know....Can "hets" be made or with a dark phase X classic pairing produce intermediate offspring?
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

>>Melanistic thayeri and getula are just that melanistic, not hyper-melanistic.....I've never really seen a hypermelanistic thayeri or getula.

I thought a little more about this.....Is a totally melanistic thayeri 'Hyper melanistic' or melanistic?
When I think of 'hyper' I think of it as the opposite of 'hypo'. And a hypomelanistic does not have all of its black absent, that would be amelanistic. I think a hyper melanistic snake would not be completely black...that would be melanistic snake, opposite of amelanistic.
Just my take on it.....
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

As far as I know hypermelanism and melanism is the same thing.

Amelanism= No melanin
Hypomelanism= Reduced melanin
Hypermelanism= Excess melanin
Genetic Mutations Link

>>As far as I know hypermelanism and melanism is the same thing.
>>
>>Amelanism= No melanin
>>Hypomelanism= Reduced melanin
>>Hypermelanism= Excess melanin
>>Genetic Mutations Link

Alright...Greg,
You and your link has answered my question and removed all doubt.....LOL
Now I will think hypermelanistic and melanistic as one in the same.
Thus....I do not think the black mexmex should be called hypermelanistic.
Thanks...That is what this board is for...Plus we get to show off nice mexicana pictures.....LOL

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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

She's getting darker by the day. I'm looking for some pics from one I first got her to post.

>>She's getting darker by the day. I'm looking for some pics from one I first got her to post.

Awesome Mex-Mex.....
I have some more to add after you post your baby pics and pics of the male (if you do)....
Thanks for sharing,
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."