Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hopefully someone here can give some advice.
We've a 4 yr old pair of Womas that last year came down with serious respiratory infections. No need to go into all the treatment data but, suffice it to say, they're not out of the woods yet but after some tube feeding they're on the road to recovery. Problem is, while they've resumed agressive feeding responses, about 50% of the time they kill the food, start to swallow & then basically spit it out.
What gives?? They WANT to eat but just don't follow though.
Thanks for any advice!

To make a reasonable response, I would be interested in which antibiotics were used on these pythons, and how many times they were tube fed?

Kelly

Possibly some throat injury to to tube feeding?
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1.1 Blackheaded pythons
2.3 Woma
4.2 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.1 Bloods
2.2 IJ Carpets
1.0 Coastal Carpets
1.3 Macklotts
1.2 F2 Carpondros
2.0 Jungle Carpet
0.1 Carpondro
1.1 Brazilian Rainbow boas
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

Thanks for your responses. We treated them with Baytril & Amakacin for several weeks but there was no improvement. The vet bills were getting excessive so we backed off. Eventually, the infections seem to have about run it's course & the tube feedings finally seemed to be productive. I don't think the tubings are the source of the issue. They've been infrequent & always easy.
Please throw some more thoughts at me. Sure want to turn these guys around before winter.
Thanks!!

If they are still sick they are probably congested can't breath with a rat in their throat/mouth and spit it out. Try much smaller meals like rat pups or crawlers and work on getting them back to a qualified vet to treat the infection. Open their mouths with a large spoon and check the tops of their mouth / nasal passage and look for dried snot! Don't try to breed them this season! Good luck.

Tom, I'm thinking you may be on to something there. I'll try even smaller meals & see what happens. Another expensive antibiotic regimen is something I'd like to avoid.
Thanx,
Dan.

If Tom is correct, and they are so congested they can't feed, you will also see opaque saliva smears on the cage glass and they will have excess mucous in the mouth. What were the dosages (mg/kg) and frequencies of injection on the enrofloxacin and amikacin that were used?

Kelly

I had a pair of BH pythons that had repeated blockage of the nostrils. Cultures turned up nothing. They fed normally. The female had it for over 1.5 years, didn't seem to bother her.....until she died from lung damage from a bit of stress while taking her to the vet's. The male had a slight bit of infection left, but had the problem for a lot less time. I just finished a month of Amakacin injections, and he's finally breathing normally. I replaced the female at Daytona with a beautiful animal from Tom She's doing nicely, and hopefully will produce little BHs this season.

Any time either of them had blockage, they still fed normally, since their glottis was not obstructed.
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1.1 Blackheaded pythons
2.3 Woma
4.2 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.1 Bloods
2.2 IJ Carpets
1.0 Coastal Carpets
1.3 Macklotts
1.2 F2 Carpondros
2.0 Jungle Carpet
0.1 Carpondro
1.1 Brazilian Rainbow boas
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

Kelly, I don't recall the dosage of the meds we were giving but will call the Vet & find out.
I'm going to offer them small hoppers tomorrow just to see if that makes a difference.
We hear a wheeze every now & then but are reluctant at this point to resort to antibiotics just yet.
Our other pair of adults are doing fine but have begun preferring live over FT.
Are Womas prone to RI's? Sounds like it.
We purchased a 2 year old female BH from James Cucinotta at Daytona this year, our first BH. Sure hope she stays trouble free!
Thanks for your input to each of you. I'll get back with a more detailed report on the antibiotics.
Dan.

I'd have to agree with Tom about not breeding this year. Also, make sure the vet you've gone to specializes in reptiles...it's well worth it. I've had Baytril cause problems in the past, so I am reluctant to use it again. My new vet (an exotic specialist) agrees.

Lastly, I'd suggest allowing each snake to move through your hands while putting pressure on their abdomens. Basically, start from the upper 1/4 of the snake, holding it with both hands (fingers on the belly), and as it moves through your hands, see if you feel any air pockets or gas moving around as if they're bloated. This can be an indicator that they are "gulping" air, and that any problem with RI is not resolved.

Good luck!

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"He who would stifle debate rather than engage in it, does so at the expense of his integrity and credibility"

Mike Curtin

Initially, one snake was treated for 2 weeks with Baytril every two days, 0.35 mL.
When that failed, both snakes were put on Amakacin (.07 mL)& Fortaz (.16 mL) every two days. Unfortunately, I don't have the mg/kg amounts.
Both of them still have mucous forming & I plan on another vet trip. Any advice?
Thanks your helping!
Dan

Every two days for how long? My vet usually tells me to run them every 3 days for a month. Seems to do the trick.
-----
1.1 Blackheaded pythons
2.4 Woma
4.2 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
2.2 Bloods
2.2 IJ Carpets
1.1 Coastal Carpets
1.3 Macklotts
1.2 F2 Carpondros
2.0 Jungle Carpet
0.1 Carpondro
1.1 Brazilian Rainbow boas
1.1 Striped Bolivian Boas
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

That was for a two week regimen. Renal damage was a consideration, along with a sizeable vet bill that was offering no real improvements.

it is not possible to determine the mg/kg dose without knowing the antibiotic concentration of the injected solution in mg/ml. However, from your cage data, I would say that your temps were considerably too low for womas under antibiotic therapy. This may have significantly inhibited the effectiveness of the antibiotics used, and additionally limited the immune system of these snakes to also deal effectively with the infection. I would suggest holding the 24/7 temps at 90 to 92 for a couple of weeks with a small cool area at no less than 86 to 88. Accurate temp monitoring equipment should obviously be used as well. Humidity should probably be in the 50% to 60% range for this species under treatment. You might try this for a couple of weeks without antibiotic therapy as there is a possibility that they could recover without it with this temp regime.

Kelly

Kelly, thanks for that advice. While the vet & I agreed a higher humidity was needed, she didn't mention a temp increase. I took it up to around 85 anyway but never even considered the 90's. As of your post I've cranked it up. That's easy. The hard part is increasing the humidity. They refuse to use the sphagnum moss hide. I doubt misting the enclosure will produce more than a few minutes increase. Any ideas there?
Just curious. Are you a vet?
Thanks for your (& others!)good help.
Dan.

Dan,
Temp and humidity increases are critical to successful antibiotic therapy with boas and pythons. One way to increase humidity is to have an evaporation dish, glass is most effective, that contains saturated paper towels or other material setting in a small amount of water. Set over floor heating for best results. This acts as a wick system and will raise the humidity considerably. Cage vents should be kept at a minimum as well during the process. For more tropical species, spraying can be used in conjunction with this. You must also change the wick material in the dish every few days as well. I am not a vet, but have a laboratory background and have studied antibiotic therapy with boas and pythons for about 20 years. I don't consider myself an authority by any means, but have picked up a lot of information from speaking with the experts, reading technical journals, and from my own experiences with numerous specimens in other collections. Unless a person is well versed with antimicrobial treatment in reptiles, I always recommend consulting with a vet before initiating any antibiotic therapy. Thanks,

Kelly

I read this thread and I see nothing about temperature. I am assuming that you have the correct temperature for the antibiotics to do their job.

You may try increasing the temperature with a gradient and feed smaller items and hope that they keep the food down.

Prior to the RI their warm side temps were steady on 82 during the day & mid to lower 70's at night. Starting with the antibiotics, temps were raised to 85 24/7 with about 80 on the cool end. They always have access to a "humidity hide" but seldom use it.