Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have many questions on what I think has become an issue.

I beleive that if you aquire animals from the two locales from TRUSTWORTHY sources the they should be promoted as such.

If I obtain Pucallpas that do not show the "typical" Pucallpa traits how does one promote their boas? If they are "typical" Iquitos looking boas is it wrong for me to say they are Iquitos when I do not know for sure?

Would it be wrong to breed these "non-typical" looking Pucallpas to Iquitos looking boas?

I think that there are so few people that have cosistently bred these animals that we base our opinions of what one or the other should look like upon what the producers have offered, I am certain that some of these breeders would have documents to prove origin, but I would say most do not. I have never been offered copies of any paper work.

Wen we really do not know should we not just be happy with promoting pretty Peruvians? Why the obsession to lable them with really no proof, obviously it is marketing in most cases.

It does not seem to me that we have this debate with our other B.c.c. I know there are some legitamate locale boas out there but for the most part we pair pretty Surinames with other pretty Surinames and the sell the babies as such.

Should we not take our Peruvians in a new direction and create lines for them such as "rose" or "psycho peaks"? Maybe that way we could just have gorgeous Peruvians. I would not be able to prove the original lineage of any of my Peruvians...I think very few of us could. Johnathan and Mike I hope you do not mind me using your animals as examples.

Having said that if I am selling Pucallpa babies who will be the one to determine their locale, In one persons eyes that could make me a liar if they think that I really have Iquitos.

In a nut shell I think we should address this issue so that we can move in a better direction with our Peruvians and the discussions about them.

These questions are intended as just that questions, I am not trying to stir anything up...I for one have posted Pucallpa and Iquitos as locales, but I could not prove it...could you?

Anyway some thoughts to ponder.
Joel Thomas

" QUOTE " /When we really do not know should we not just be happy with promoting pretty Peruvians? Why the obsession to lable them with really no proof, obviously it is marketing in most cases./

Oh, but brother; " IT WILL STIRR THINGS UP!! "

I have been kicked off of here over the years and lost friends over this exact subject.

You really need to give me a call sometime and I will fill your ears with tons of proof of Marketing Strategies and just how many stories about; " A MYSTERIOUS MISSIONARY BROUGHT THEM IN, " would you like to hear???

Those MISSIONARIES, sure do love collecting Boas " let me tell you! "

I will shut up now and not venture off to that " Dark Path Of Truth, " again.

However, in the end there is only one thing that seperates any of the B.C.C. from one another and that is Geography!

I would gladly share these thoughts with you over phone or e-mail, but never again on a forum.

Take Care and Enjoy Those Gorgeous Peruvians and do not be surprised if some certain folks come up with some " Brilliant Mark Twain B.S. " to contribute to their B.C.C. Locale debate.

I have heard them all..........JJ

Pretty much a bunch of slick marketing and shameless self-promotion, huh?
The best you can do is call them such and such locality "Type" if they have visual characteristics of known local characteristics.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Great topic Joel. As far as 'trustworthy" sources I think everybodys opinions of who is or isn't is going to vary greatly. Just because you or I got a boa from somebody who said it was from a specific local, doesn't mean somebody else is going to believe our source of orgin.

I have several peruvians that both have traits of Iquitos and Pucallpa animals. I even had comments from individuals that some of the animals were produced from a "poster girl" of what an Iquitos should look like. But I choose to just label them as SIMPLY PERUVIANS.

I've done alot of work in trying to trace back the orgins of all my BCC as far as possible. With several of them I've made it back to the original animals that came in from Peru. I've also gotten pictures (whenever possible) to document all of the other generations of these animals too. I seriously doubt I'll be able to get much more accurate info on the animals I currently have. But I am extremely happy with all of them.

A friend of mine offered me 2 females not long ago that were imported a while back. They both look like Pucallpas hands down, especially some produced from a farm near the Ucayali River (where I SUSPECT these were produced) and I believe him to be a very trustworthy source. But he never got any paperwork on them. I'm pretty sure that I could easily contact the individual who brought them in and get copies of the CITES, only then would I label them as Pucallpas. I also wouldn't breed them to a male without paperwork on his linage, I think that would be taking a step back.

As far as labeling them Iquitos or Pucallpa "TYPE" boas I think it's a great idea but more of a marketing thing and will cause more confusion. Everybody who has been around for more than a few days has their own ideas of what they think a Pucallpa or Iquitos should look like. I think TYPE labeling is geared more towards newer uneducated individuals who could easily be mislead into believing that the animal has verifyable background info other than, "well it's parents looked Iquitos to me"

Sorry for rambling, but to wrap it up, I would like to say thanks for everybody who is so passionate about all BCC, I've been seeing some excellent pics of amazing animals lately. Also I personally would never label an animal from Iquitos or Pucallpa based on looks or word of mouth alone. I would only do so with paperwork and pictures involved. Take Care, Nick

Well put and great point about being trustworthy!!!
Be well Nick.
Joel

Interesting subject. I agree with almost everything mentioned.

Take care,

Kevin

this Boa Locale to be?

No B.S. just an honest guess based on appearance beyond the aberrancies.

JJ

Peruvian??

Aberrancies are not too common in Peruvians.

Yes, this is a 0 Pucallpa.

Caught and photographed in pucallpa.

I have many more examples.

JJ

Another guess for you.

What would you say this is, just by appearance?

JJ

What would your guess be on this one?

I promise, I am going somewere with this and still waiting for that call!

JJ

Guess on this one?

I am showing pieces of a puzzle, that involve many many pictures of Boas of known origins and still wonder why I am the only one I have talked too that has figured out, what really seperates B.C.C. of different Locales.

Thanks God, my Grandaddy left me with some common sense.

JJ

That one is tuff, I would guess it to be Peruvian?
pretty snake!!

that one is easy... pissed off pass!

That my friend is a TRUE LETICIA COLOMBIAN.

Not one of these fakes that have been promoted over the years and yes, it does look like a Peruvian and the question is why??????

Also, the other one is a Southern Suriname, with Peruvian thin saddles.

The one on the grass, is also a Southern Suriname, with Peruvian Markings and why is that??????

The answer is simple.

Why do all of these Boas share allot of similarities, but none of them look like Northern Guyanas or Surinames??

It is Geography and Geography only, that truly seperates outward characteristics in B.C.C. Locales.

There is Highland or Guyana Shield B.C.C. " take a look at how huge the Shield is on a map " and there is Lowland Basin B.C.C.

In my true and honest belief, the same applies to Boas from Highlands and Lowlands as compared to Northern Emerald Tree Boas from the Highlands compared to the striped low land Basin types.

Now, there can be some subtle and slightly extreme differences within both types of B.C.C. from these two main areas, but typically, you will not find a Highland Boa that looks like a low land Boa.

Boas, from Lowland Peru " Pucallpa and Iquitos ect " look like Boas from Leticia and very similar to Boas I have seen from low land Basin Venezuela and Brazil.

Now, there are variances within all of those populations, but they all tend to keep the same variances.

However, lowland Basin Boas, hardly ever " if ever " look anything like what is found in B.C.C. on the Guyana Shield.

Look at Emerald Tree Boas and there is no reason that the same does not apply to B.C.C.

It is just to obvious as most things in life.

I could go into allot more detail, but do not have time right now and I tend to ramble my words when typing.

However, I would love to discuss this further with you sometime and it not be over the key board and I could make more sense out of it.

Take Care, John J

That is one nice snake JJ

Looks like Suriname, with Peruvian thin saddles

I would GUESS that animal to have come from or had ancestors that came from Northeastern Peru, possibly somewhere close to the Brazil border. I base that guess on the slight peaks and base color of the animal. Take Care, Nick

i say all three are peruvian, iquitos, pacallpa,pacallpa thats what i would guess.
greg c

Simply based on looks alone, without the aberrancies I would GUESS that to be an animal from Pucallpa. I based my guess on the shape and color of the few saddles that weren't aberrant. A few of the non-aberrant saddles also have the slightest bump in the center of them that looks like it almost wanted to be a peak. (Hope that made sense) I also took into account the tail markings.

I also based my guess from boas that I have also seen in other pics directly from Pucallpa. While they may or may not look similar, I believe that just because a few people in the US might be working with select small groups of animals (of verifyable locality), those animals should NOT be the end all definition of what an animal from a said locality should or should not look like. I don't think the limited number of animals, their offspring, and the characteristics that they posses in captivity can even compare to all the different looks that a wild population could be capable of displaying.

If I were to make a GUESS at where the animal was from with the aberrancies included I would GUESS Pucallpa. I can't recall ever seeing an animal with the striping or the extreme center pinced saddles that animal has in a few towards the tail in a verifyable Iquitos animal. I'm sure that there are a few aberrant Iquitos out there somewhere, but from my limited experience, Pucallpa animals seem to display the aberrancies alot more frequently, in captive collections, and also in wild caught peruvian animals.

Then again for all I know, I doubt it, but that animal could be a BCC BCI jungle cross. Maybe that's where the aberrancies came from JK Great discussion and topic everybody, Take Care, Nick Stone

Sorry all of my responses have gotten jumbled up. My joke about the jungle cross was directed to the first boa you posted John with the extreme aberrancies. My post about the animal from Northeast peru was directed towards the larger animal in the white cage. I would guess the animal in the defensive posistion on the grass to be from possibly northeastern Peru, possibly around the Ecuador, Columbia border, but I lean a little more Ecuadorian. The last one you posted on the grass I have no idea it could go either way. Once again let me say that these are all GUESSES based soley upon animals I have seen before from verifyable sources.I've said it in a post above and I don't believe that anybody can honestly and accuratley label an animal from a smaller specific region based soley on looks alone. By the way great looking animals all of them. Take Care, Nick

Sorry, I missed the discussion. Hard to match up photo with what it is, but anyway -- I just sold a Pulcallpa male that looked just like that Leticia. I know one of you guys inquired.
I gotta put my 2 cents in here. Geography does make a difference in morphology. Two boas can be classified as different subspecies, but look alike because of similar geography, environment, and climate. Also very important -- Many of these guys go through a serious color change from neo to old adult. Easily mistaken for different animals, if not different ssp.
jsc

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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer