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aggression

osira Oct 07, 2008 12:13 AM

I've always loved snakes, they've always been my favorite animal hands down.
Which is what brings me here. Searching for a new but snake

I've read some recent articles regarding people getting strangled to death by thier large pet python.
Before i read these articles I was dead set on getting either a retic or a burm.
Seemed like the next step up in snake keeping after working with ball pythons and boa constrictors for a few years.

But my quesstion is
HOw bad are large pythons really?
I've wrote a few people asking them but Can never get a straight answer out of them.
And can never find any good info online other then how horrible they are to keep.
I suppose what I really need is a good explanation.
I understand that it varies from snake to snake and species to species but what variables would be needed to turn the odds in my favor of landing a nice calm and tame retic or burm?
please any and all info would be greatly appreciated

Replies (13)

OKReptileRescue Oct 07, 2008 01:24 AM

Burms are dolls.... We have several and use them regularly in our educational programs...

Regular feeding and handling will ensure that...

We have burms and retics both.... The burms are slower moving than the retics who want to go go go! everywhere-- which can make people nervous.... we tried an educational show with an 8 foot retic as well as a large burm...
People were much more comfortable with the burm who sort of just layed around in the sun... the retic wanted to climb everyone...

I've had WAY more bites from the smaller snakes-- ball pythons, emerald tree boa, red tails, darn corn snakes are evil... had a few burms get vocal with me-- hiss a lot... but I rarely am struck at by a burm... get struck at occasionally by the retics but have always been food related...

My first big snake was a burm... had several burms for several years before I "took the plunge" and got my first retic... Other people had me so afraid of retics that I waited a loooong time to get my first... now I wish I hadn't waited so long-- but I am glad I had the burm first... got me ready for a large snake without being an active large snake...

We now have multiple burms, retics and a psycho african rock python (not a begginner snake... lol) I say start with a burm... get used to what 15 foot feels like... then get a retic...

Regarding people being strangled by thier pet pythons.... kinda gettin' old... last I heard you're more likely to die from a lightening strike than a pet python... and I believe it... now if corn snakes could kill... i'm sure I'd be dead a few times over... but the burms... nah..

hope that helped... I'm sure someone will disagree and offer better advice but thats what the forum is for

~Beth
-----
Until there are none, Rescue One! Get ready to welcome the new and improved Oklahoma Animal Rescue Group -- Just a few weeks away from getting our 501c3 status!!!!!

osira Oct 07, 2008 08:53 PM

Thank you Very much for your response
I did find it very helpful.
I think I have my mind made up on getting a burm
Is there anything outside of the caresheets i should know about burms, things regarding behavior or handling techniques, or anything else?
I dont really know any one who keeps large snakes
so your advice is greatly appreciated.

OKReptileRescue Oct 08, 2008 09:47 AM

well... We sort of dove in head first...
We were just checking stuff out at a petstore- didn't really plan on buying anything.... little dingy girl was trying to water a tank of baby burms who were striking at her... I went over and pulled the mouthy burm out and watered them and went to put the mouthy burm back in--- manager came in and said that I could have them if i wanted... they were skinny, they would eat- they just hadn't been fed "because we can't pick them up to seperate them" (as I'm holding one...)... so I took home 3 baby burms... FREE BURMS... glad I wasn't 12...

Anyway... 3 weeks later the same petstore had a 12 footer that they were scared to death of... he came home with us too and was VERY tame... so in less than a month we went from zero burms to 4 ...

depending on what you end up with- baby or adult... get a hook... we have a huge hook from midwest tongs- they're like $60 on the website, but we got one at the arlington show last year for $30... WELL worth it! We use it all the time- its 5 foot long so we can make sure the snakes are "awake" before my hand goes in the cage... I've never been bitten by a burm (knock on wood) but the hook makes me feel A LOT safer!

~Beth
-----
Until there are none, Rescue One! Get ready to welcome the new and improved Oklahoma Animal Rescue Group -- Just a few weeks away from getting our 501c3 status!!!!!

ThirdDimension Oct 08, 2008 10:14 AM

yes, hooks are a great idea! my burm is a sweetheart but i still use a little nudge of my hook to let him know the difference between food coming in and my arm to pick him up.
i have also used my burm in many educational programs and have had everything from kids to adults, to ederly people confined to wheel chairs touching, petting, and holding him! i also think a very comforting thing about burms to people is that they are so content to sit in one place, letting people approach them instead of visa versa.
Im not sure why burms have gotten such a bad rap but i have noticed it even within the experienced herp community. when i got mine, it was at a herp show, i was originally looking for a baby albino, until i saw a six and a half foot normal that i fell in love with. as soon as the vendor took him out of his bag, the vendor at the next table ran about three feet away saying he didnt want it near him that he didnt trust them at all (meanwhile you see me, a girl half his size holding this burm and talking to it, the typical, you know how gorgeous you are talk lol) unfortunately the one thing i would definately look out for is a GOOD, REPUTABLE breeder. the man that i got mine from told me that it was a cheap snake so he never tried to switch it to frozen rats and that it would be fine to keep him in a twenty gallon tank for atleast another year(this snake was already six and a half foot long!) meanwhile after i took him home i soon noticed a respiratory infection that had to be treated with antibiotics and since it did take so long to switch to frozen he got bit in the face by one of the few live rats i did feed him. case in point, its not fun giving an almost seven foot snake injections and trying to clean a wound inside its mouth. but i dygress, long story short, get a healthy snake, keep your temps and humidity correct, make sure there is a vet in your area that will see large constrictors(trust me just because they will see snakes doesnt mean they will see a twelve foot burm) and i would even recommend a good health check up after you get the snake, they hide illness well. i think thats about it, sorry for the long post, good luck and have fun!
~Third Dimension Reptiles
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www.myspace.com/ThirdDimensionReptiles

osira Oct 10, 2008 04:44 AM

Thank you, both of you
Your responses were even more helpful
from what I've heard and from what you guys say, it seems burms are the labs of the snake world
I'll keep those things in mind when i get my burm.
Thinkin I'll get an albino male hatchling for starters and work from there
I'll be sure to post pics of the little guy
Thanks again

HappyHillbilly Oct 08, 2008 10:39 AM

I think Beth gave you some good background info. I'll try to make a few points and try to put some things in a perspective that might help you understand.

First of all, what is the major difference between a corn snake and a Burmese python? Size.

Strength is related to size, and therefore commands more respect and more stringent procedures due to capabilities & possibilities.

Granny drives her Ford Pinto 45 mph with both hands on the steering wheel, at all times. She is a safe, albeit sometimes slow, driver. Put granny in a suped up Ford Mustang with over 500 horsepower at her fingertips/toetips.

Some will argue that her new car is dangerous, but granny will tell you that it's not. It's what she does with that horsepower that determines if it's dangerous or not. She respects it and is still a safe driver. The car is not dangerous on it's own. Neither are guns, prescription medicines, alcohol, snakes, etc... It's all about what we do with these things.

Because of a large snake's capabilities (especially Boidae) safety precautions become more important. Most accidents come from getting relaxed doing routine things. This is true with big snakes & venomous snakes, alike. Most cases involve an experienced keeper that just flat out let their guard down. Very rarely do we hear of an inexperienced keeper having a close call. It's most always, "He's been keeping snakes for 20-plus years. I'm surprised this happened to him."

Persoanlly, I feel that a person just beginning to keep a large constrictor should get a hatchling so they can grow & learn as the snake grows & learns.

Hook train it, feed it with tongs and not your hands, and handle a large constrictor on a regular basis, other than just to feed it & clean it's cage, and you should be fine. I suggest not handling anything over 8ft in length by yourself. In other words, always be prepared. Have a plan, a course of action, ready in case the unexpected were to ever happen. Doing dry runs, walkthroughs, is very important. I keep a small bottle of Listerene (original formula) right beside me when I handle my big snakes. As nasty as that stuff is it's bound to make a snake release its bite, without harming the snake, if poured into its mouth.

If a person "fears" their snake, it's not good for the snake or the keeper. Don't fear it, but respect it. Respect it at all times. There's a fine line between "fear" & "respect."

Have a great day!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American


www.natures-signature.com

laurarfl Oct 09, 2008 08:05 AM

That's exactly what we do...probably because I came here to learn about Burms before I got one!

The Burm I "received" was an 11ft male that was loved and handled, but not cared for properly. He's a great snake and very docile. I have grown to really enjoy Burms and think they are the best of the big snakes.

OK, the business part. I bought a hook and use it as everyone else does. It's not to lift, but to nudge and redirect. I rub him with it before I handle him, and I use it to coax him out of the cage rather than reach in and pick him up. I feed pre-killed or F/T rabbits with tongs and NO HOOK.

No one handles the snake without two people present. He needs at least two people to handle him comfortably, plus you never know when you need an extra hand for emergency sake. I keep a bottle of rubbing alcohol behind the cage in case of a bite for snake release and everyone is taught how to handle a snake bite or constricting issue. Our plan is to use alcohol to get the snake to release, unwrap from the tail, and do not call 911 unless it is an absolute necessity. (Some may not agree with that idea, but it's a political decision for us.) Then we can deal with medical attention for the bite wound.

I have two girls, ages 12 and 14. They are not allowed to open the cage, friends are not allowed to open the cage, and they know that serious consequences would follow. Perhaps we are overly cautious, but we have a reptile business and we live in a volatile area as far as reptiles are concerned. One accident would do a lot of harm to us in more ways than one! Plus, who wants to get bit by a huge snake?

Working with a hatchling would have been pretty cool, but that's not the way Samson came to us. It was a bit nerve racking suddenly having this huge constrictor, but we felt up to the challenge, and I'm glad we could give him a good home. The comment about the vet was right--Not everyone feels comfortable with large snakes. Fortunately I have a great herp vet who likes my big boy!

HappyHillbilly Oct 09, 2008 08:55 AM

I meant to say this in my first post but forgot to.

The term "aggression" or "aggressive" is used pretty loosely in talking about the behavior of snakes. There is a difference between a snake being aggressive and one being defensive. The typical behavior of Reticulated Pythons & Burmese Pythons falls under "defensive," not "aggressive."

Learning to interpret behavior is key to learning how to deal with it.

The only aggressive behavior I've personally seen with retics & burms is an aggressive feeding response in some snakes. Retics are more known for that but deprived burms can get that way, too.

Remember that a snake's cage is their domain. It's their turf, their security. When that security is breached they naturally want to defend their self unless they're trained to realize that every opening of their cage doesn't mean danger or food.

A snake that comes up out of it's cage when the cage is opened & races towards you with every intention of biting you, well,...... that's an "aggressive" snake (not typical retic or burm behavior).

A snake that remains in it's cage and coils up and/or strikes at you when its cage is opened is usually just being "defensive."

I just wanted to make sure the differences between "aggressive" and "defensive" are understood by everyone reading this. It's vital to a particular circumstance's solution.

Later!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American


www.natures-signature.com

osira Oct 11, 2008 06:41 PM

Thank you for that Happy Hillbilly.
I do understand the difference I just thought I would generallize it for the sake of the posts and just use the most simple definition of the word aggression.
But you brought up training snakes to being accustomed to you intruding into their domain AKA enclosure.
If I missed the answer to this I'm sorry but what are some good methods to training a burm into not recognising you as either predator or prey when opening the cage?
I think a few of you mention using a hook to let them know the difference. are there any other means or additional ways to add to this technique?
like i said before As far as boids go my only prior experince with them was with ball pythons and Boa constrictors. With them I never used hooks or tongs probably because they weren't very aggressive or defensive with me.
Also they weren't as large so I wasn't too cautious.
Since I'm going to be dealing with a much larger and more powerful constrictor I just want to do everything right for my sake and the burm's sake.
thank you all again for all the pointers and advice
and don't be afraid to tell me if I'm blowing this all out of proportion LOL (I feel I may be a bit)

ThirdDimension Oct 11, 2008 07:17 PM

The best advice i can give to keep your burm from thinking you are food is to not smell like a rodent lol. case, in point be sure to use a good disinfectant before and after handling your snakes.
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www.myspace.com/ThirdDimensionReptiles

HappyHillbilly Oct 12, 2008 11:44 AM

"The best advice i can give to keep your burm from thinking you are food is to not smell like a rodent lol."

That's hard for a dirty, rotten rat, like myself, to do. Ha! Ha!

Later!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American


www.natures-signature.com

HappyHillbilly Oct 12, 2008 11:33 AM

Hi!
From your whole post I got the impression that you knew the difference between aggressive & defensive behavior. I hope I didn't come across as "calling you out" on using "aggression" in general. A lot of times I'll take opportunities like that to talk to the many people that silently read these forums, to try to make sure that they are aware also.

And no, you’re not blowing any of this out of proportion. Not at all. You’re looking ahead, something that more people need to do. I’d much rather a new driver learn how to use the gas pedal and the brake pedal before they reach the intersection of Main St. & Central Blvd.

"...what are some good methods to training a burm into not recognising you as either predator or prey when opening the cage?
I think a few of you mention using a hook to let them know the difference. are there any other means or additional ways to add to this technique?"

I have a bad habit of getting "too deep" sometimes. Ha! Please forgive me. One thing that I feel is important is eliminating the element of surprise, which I believe is the #1 cause of defensive strikes.

Sudden opening of a cage, without the snake being aware that you're anywhere around, can be bad for business. Also, a lot of times snakes will be in a state of trance and they may appear to be looking right at you but they don't actually see you or anything else that's going on.

Bump the cage a lil', tap on it so they can feel the vibrations, whistle. (We all know that snakes can't hear so whistling is just to sooth the keeper's nerves. ) Hey, it works. Sometimes I like to harmonize my whistling with my Burm's hissing. Hahaha!!! (Sorry. I'm feeling a bit giddy this mornin'. I'll try to tighten up.)

If the snake's lying motionless, possibly in a trance, use a hook (umbrella, broomstick, fashioned coat hanger, etc...) to gently stroke/tap the snake on its head & neck.

Once you have the snake's attention give it a minute or two to become fully aware of what's going on.

With young Burmese Pythons it's possible to lift them out of their cage safely with most hooks, but not when they're 10ft long. With large snakes a strong hook can be used to pull it out of a cage that opens from the front instead of the top.

Snakes, in general, especially Burmese Pythons, learn pretty quick what a hook is for. It’s up to us to use the hook to signal “handling” and not confuse the snake by using a hook at any time during feeding. You’d be surprised just how fast they actually learn what it means. I’ve got an 8yr old rescued Burmese Python that never saw a hook it’s first 7yrs of life. Within a few weeks time it was conditioned.

Personally, I think when to start hook training depends on the snake, for the most part. A nippy hatchling is a prime candidate. More docile snakes should begin hook training/conditioning at least by the time they reach lengths of 6ft or so. You want to get them conditioned before their bites/actions become dangerous. Before it becomes more than a simple bite that draws a lil’ bit of blood. I generally begin hook training when they’re about 6 - 8ft. But keep in mind that all of mine are as docile as can be because I spend time handling them ever since they were hatchlings.

We’ve all had times where we’ve failed to handle our snakes like we should; sometimes the only opening of their cage is for feeding. This is begging for trouble. We can get away with it every now & then but it can easily become a bad habit. This can cause a feeding response to every cage opening. It conditions the snake to associate the opening of the cage with feeding, not feeding and/or handling.

Feeding:
I feed my hatchlings by placing the prey in their cage with bare hands, but I stop using my hands when they get to around 3ft or so. I’m usually working with 20-plus hatchlings and/or young ones at a time, so it’s a different story with me than it is in raising one or two. Actually, I think it’s best not to ever let them see you with prey in your hand or scent of prey on your hands. But still, even with my hatchlings I don’t get feeding responses when I open their tubs/cages. I open their cages more to water & handle them than I do to feed them.

So, at least by the time one reaches 3 – 4ft I strongly suggest feeding with tongs or grabbers for the rest of their life. Once again, you’ll be surprised how fast they’ll distinguish the difference between a pair of grabbers and a hook. Avoid confusing them. Don’t use a hook at all during feeding sessions & don’t use grabbers at all during handling sessions.

OK, I’ve kinda jumped around a bit here in this post. My apologies. I’m in a hurry & running behind, as usual. Let me tell you a routine that I usually follow as a bit of a summary. With so many reptiles and so little time I’m not able to spend the time I should with each snake or lizard. Here’s one way I’ve managed to keep my captives & myself in check:

If I haven’t spent time handling my snakes during the week I do it at feeding time. I make it a point to handle them before feeding them. With my 12ft female & 10ft male Burmese Python I open their cage. Most of the time they’re aware I’m there & they’re aware that I’m about to open their cage. They’re also aware that they’re about to taken out of the cage, to be handled because I always handle them before feeding them. In doing so, they’re conditioned to know that opening the cage doesn’t mean feeding.

I usually let them crawl out of the cage and to me. They always come to me if I’m standing by the cage. Once I’m confident they know who I am and that they’re aware of their surroundings I can safely lift them out of the cage. I may bath them, rinse them off in the tub and/or just let them crawl around the house for several minutes and handle them some as they move about. After a little exercise and handling I put them back in their cage and wait a few minutes to begin feeding them.

I’ve raised these two from hatchlings doing this and I’ve never had anything that closely resembles a feeding response strike, defensive or aggressive strike, from either one of them. They’re now 4yrs old. I’m raising three of their 2007 offspring the same way and never an issue with them, either.

If you haven’t already, follow the links below that I posted in another recent thread here & follow any links within them. There’s some more info on conditioning, with other people’s views, too. My way isn’t the only way – it’s only one of many ways. An ability to interpret a reaction and then determine its cause will go a long way in reptile keeping; in many, many areas of keeping.

I’m sorry this turned out to be a novel, but that’s another one of my bad habits (long posts).

Take care!
HH

Here are the links:
forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1552022,1552022

forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1387844,1387844

I also suggest scanning through the 5 or 6 pages readily available here in this forum for posts that mentions conditioning, hook training, temperament, behavior, etc…
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American


www.natures-signature.com

Osira Oct 15, 2008 04:06 PM

Thank you very much
That's a bit more like what i was looking for.
and thanks to everyone else who contributed.

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