Reptile & Amphibian Forums

There was a post a little while back where it was commented that neirther super jungles or super motleys had produced a live clutch. Can anyone shed some light on this? I've tried contacted some of the bigger breeders that work with these morphs and haven't gotten a response back. If this is true though, my breeding projects are screwed!

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Scott

As I have heard, and seen on forums, to date, this is true. I can understand the Super Mots not able to produce as I've heard that they're not completely "right" (small heads,weird tongue flick, lay different/rigid), but I hope the someone is successful in breeding a Super Jungle one day.
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Snake room janitor

I've read the same thing about them being infertile. I don't know if it's true or not, but......

As long as the Jungle has been being bred, you'd think "someone" would have gotten them to produce by now.

Still, even if they are infertile, they'll make nice pets. I don't think that everyone that buys a boa intends on breeding it, so it shouldn't matter. I guess it "might" make a difference in what they might sell for, but not much. The Super Jungles have such a unique look, people will still buy them.

As for the Super Motley's... Those boas are AWESOME!! I want one, even if it does turn out to be "just a pet".

So, either way, I think there will still be a demand for the Super Jungles and Super Motleys.

Good luck on getting a big name breeder to call you back and anwser those questions! What you should do is call saying you want to buy something like a super jungle and once you have them on the phone see if you can get them to anwswer the questions. Only times I have ever gotten a phone call back from a so called big name is because $$$$ was envolved! Want to have a chitchat about boas and genetics, you'll be waiting a minute for that phone call my friend! There should be enough mature Super animals from each mutation that we should have seen a litter from a Super of each by now! Ryan Homsey pinned down PK at Daytona this past year and Pete told him he hadn't produced from a Super Jungle yet! I don't really know many of the folks with Super Mots, but I think they would have to answer the same!

Until one of us that dosen't have a large financial stake in these projects does these breedings we probably won't have an answer!

Al Brown/Brown's Boas

Al hit it on the head. There is a huge amount of money that will be lost if something like this is proven. Sure many people still want these beauties in their collection. The investment value will go down the drain for Supers though especially. A breeder with a big stake in the project would not be too smart to disclose such info.People want to make as much money as they can before the bottom falls out. Sounds wrong or cutthroat,that's because it is. I guess that's the nature of business and that's really what is being discussed here in my opinion.
. . . . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz
Boas By Klevitz

Ha Ha Ha! I think that's so funny, how most of these guys don't even want to know your name unless they've got their hand in your pocket, or at least think they may. I'm glad I know a few that aren't that way. lol
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

I would never beleave Supers are Infertile. Mother Nature is very Powerful and unless they are inbred to the maxx, I see no problems with Infertility.

Van
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Forever Trust in what we are,and nothing else Matters

I disagree with xxVAVxx. Mother nature has nothing to do with designer morph breeding in captive enclosures. We see all kinds of different animals produced that are infertile. Certain hybrids, different types of fish, livestock. I'm sure that a Jungle Boa can be produced in the wild and thrive. It can even find a littermate and breed it, but theirs a reason that we don't find colonys of morphs in the wild. Mother nature, in my opinion, weeds out the oddballs (in most cases).
I love the look of the Super J's and Super Mots - I may even produce some just to have one myself, but I certainly won't buy one unless I see that they can produce. And if they can't produce, then I certainly won't try make anymore.
I sure hope that the Super Aztecs and Morrons will produce.
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Snake room janitor

Interesting..and it would show good ethics from a top breeder to chime inn here and fill us all in, good or bad.
I know super tiger retics do breed but aren't consistant,we know super salmons do.
I would still like each in my collection...only if I can produce them,I would not buy..a super to start a project.. without real proof.

Aren't you guys basically saying Co-dominant to Co-dominant doesn't work? Doesn't that speak volumes to the locus/alleles in such instances? I don't know. I'm terrible at the genetics thing. Just asking?
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

People are concerned that the homozygous form of either jungle or motley are sterile. A lot has been done lately in the way of outcrossing making it even hard to trace the relation of two jungles without contacting a lot of people. Maybe that will have something to do with it. Super jungles sure seem like healthy animals. Perhaps one or the other gender will be more likely to reproduce as well.

Theres alot of foolish People that start these Rumors. What can I say I don't know squat about anything..lol. People are Funnny I know that much.

Van
http://www.myspace.com/gregvanzweden

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Forever Trust in what we are,and nothing else Matters

I thought We were talking about supers being Infertile. You can disagree all ya want. I woun't even say I told ya so when they do, as far as Mother Nature and sex drive and Vital Sperm and the females Fetility. I think You have alot to learn send me all the infertile Animals You have. I can get them to breed. Lets just keep the Hybrids out of it.

Van
http://www.myspace.com/gregvanzweden

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Forever Trust in what we are,and nothing else Matters

1. We havent seen any evidence of a "super" jungle or a "super" motley producing yet?

2. We havent seen any evidence of a "super" arabesque producing yet? (let alone a distinctive "super" phenotype)

I realize the arabesque issue is more puzzling because, obviously, there has been ample time to prove supposed "super" versions out.

However - I do think there has been ample time to have seen super jungles producing. Just looking through Pete Kahl's litter producing and available boas at his site will tell you he has a ton of jungles. So why has he not successfully produced from a super (according to him)? It's puzzling ... I think there are two primary possibilities:
- He just hasnt been able to get a super to produce
- He has gotten them to produce but they didnt produce all jungles

If he hasnt gotten a super to produce then we can't rule out the possibility of them being sterile. Hopefully it would just be an issue to be solved through outcrossing.

If he has gotten them to produce and they didnt produce all jungles like we all think/hope they will... then it would be a huge hit to the morph. The question of whether or not jungles are a single gene mutation will be much more debatable. The value of the morph would likely diminish. So there would certainly be some incentive for Pete to keep that information under wraps.

I hope that the reason we havent seen the supers produce yet is just a legitimate lack of breeding trials... and at this point I'm not going to jump to any conclusions to the contrary. If, however, we go another breeding season or two still not knowing the function of these supers... I may start to think otherwise.

Well Stated Ryan ! N/P
. . .Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz
Boas By Klevitz

What people may not realize is that there isn't a whole lot of adult breeder super jungles and super motleys out there! Just because the breedings haven't been done for what ever reason doesn't mean they are infertile.

I agree. Just because it hasn't been done (or we don't know it's been done...), doesn't mean it won't be (or hasn't been) done. Whether SJ or SM are fertile or infertile, is speculation. There's no bilogical/anatomical evidence either way that I am aware of. The anecdotal evidence of us not yet being able to confirm a successful breeding is not enough, in my opinion, to make the leap to infertility. There are many factors that influence the outcomes of breeding attempts, besides fertility. (And, there's always the possibility that it has been done, just no one here knows it...)

It'd be interesting to know who and how many attempts have been made, even the unsuccessful ones. What were the outcomes...no reproductive activity, no products of reproductive activity, ovulation, infertile ova, premies, living young that failed to thrive, thriving young...? Are there any differences in the reproductive systems of supers compared to non-supers that could render them less compatible, yet not infertile? Does their altered (from wild-type)gentic state create different environmental challenges to the would-be-breeder that we don't yet understand? Anybody willing and able to do a sperm count?...

There are just soooo many questions that can't be answered with what is known today.

This doens't mean that they can't be infertile, it just means that I don't think we come anywhere close to knowing enough to really have an opinion.

Just my 2 cents, which is probably overvalued....

Mark

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uncommonboa.com

Yes, I agree. I also think it will take more than just one or two breeding trials to answer all those questions, but all those questions will probably be answered in the next few years. Super salmons have proved out and I think super arabesques will prove out also and just look at all the "super" versions of ball python morphs that have proved to be genetic and breed just fine!

Let me preface this by saying I don't own a super and haven't produced one yet.

I think many of the original supers were produced from very inbred parents which resulted in weak animals that did poorly. We have seen this in other morphs like albinos and snows. Once more out bred animals were used the albinos and snows produced were more viable. I expect it will be similar with supers. It is my impression from looking at pictures that more normal appearing Motley and Jungle supers are being produced. I would expect that these animals will be able to breed. It is also possible that the addition of another gene to the supers like the hypo gene may result in more hearty animals that are able to breed. I think there is no question the hypo gene has made albinos stronger and more easy to breed. It may be that the first generation of supers viable enough to breed is just now reaching breeding age.

Bill Kirby

I do think it is very possible that the weaknesses we see with super jungles/motleys/etc is caused by a shallow gene pool... which is easily countered with a little outcrossing.

I disagree with what you said regarding a mutation creating more hardy animals. I dont think thats what we see or saw with hypos and albinos. I think some animals were stronger in sunglow litters because of it being outcrossed, not because of it being a sunglow (versus an albino). I've produced a decent number of sunglows/albinos from multiple litters and certainly havent seen any evidence of that. It goes against the grain of what we see accross the board scientificly as well. From what I understand - mutations always cause a lessening information and instances that appear different are highly debatable and few/far between.

So I personally dont think we're going increase the strength of anything via adding mutations.

I do think you're onto something with the outcrossing though. Hopefully we can get these supers up to snuff very soon. Those breeders who are outcrossing into the best normal bloodlines or other well established (outcrossed) mutations have it right IMO. In fact, thats what I (and many others) are doing with the hypo mutation. Further outcrossing for even stronger... more geneticly diverse bloodlines.

I think many of the original supers were produced from very inbred parents which resulted in weak animals that did poorly. We have seen this in other morphs like albinos and snows. Once more out bred animals were used the albinos and snows produced were more viable. I expect it will be similar with supers. It is my impression from looking at pictures that more normal appearing Motley and Jungle supers are being produced. I would expect that these animals will be able to breed. It is also possible that the addition of another gene to the supers like the hypo gene may result in more hearty animals that are able to breed. I think there is no question the hypo gene has made albinos stronger and more easy to breed. It may be that the first generation of supers viable enough to breed is just now reaching breeding age.

There may not be a-lot of supers out there, but there certainly are enough! Why don't we ever see pix of subadults-adults, I'm fairly certain that the first Super Motleys were produced in 04 and if not in 05 for sure! I have 05 girls that are 6' now! Where are they and why don't people want you to know what they look like! On the Jungles I think what Pete was calling a Jungle at first actually turned out to be Supers! That would indicate that Super Jungles infact can reproduce. Someone anyone show me a nice big 5'-6' Super Motley I think we all would like to see! I know almost every Super Motley I have seen has a some what tweaked appearance.

Lets see those adult Super Mots!!!!

Al Brown/Brown's Boas

I heard that same thing about the PK original Jungles being Supers.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Here is a link were PK talks about the Jungle gene and what use to be Jungles are now Super Jungles and what called Heterozygous for jungle are now actually jungles.

Al Brown/Brown's Boas
Link

I've also read this . Although I think he bought a group so maybe he bred several pair and whoever produced gave new results.
In other words the non Supers produced when bred,that's how he found out it was Codom not recessive.
Because they had called the non supers hets to begin with.
It would be nice to really know all of this story in its entirety.
. . . . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz
Boas By Klevitz

Thanks everyone for their replies. These are excatly the questions I've been trying to answer. I tried breeding my male albino super jungle last year and didn't even observe courting. I figured he was just too small. I'm trying again this year, and I guess I'll just have to wait.

I can't imagine that they all would be genetically infertile. Even if they were severely inbred, albinos still produced offspring, just some had diformaties or were premature. I agree with the need to outcross as well. The two females I have waiting for him are both from different breeders and neither one of them are jungles. I was planning on buying a salmon jungle female though and now I'm thinking of holding off.

I know there are people that have already tried to breed super jungles and super motleys. I'd love to hear their input, whether they slugged out, premies, or just nothing took.

Thanks again.
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Scott

I don't own a Super of either J or M , but I've talked to someone who has produced Sup Mots and they were outcrossed, but from the unique characteristics that I've been told about them, I won't be suprised if they aren't able to reproduce - and that's sad because I think that they look so cool .

I am suprised that we haven't heard about a litter from the Super J's. I've seen a few , in person and they looked and acted normal to me. They've been around long enough in my opinion that we should have seen something by now. I haven't heard of them being over-inbred. I think that all dom and co-dom stand a better chance at being outcrossed since you get results from owning just one of the morph. Some certainly will be inbred, but nothing like we've seen in the recessive morphs. I won't be suprised though to see that they can reproduce, I'm just suprised that we haven't seen them yet and wonder if there's a reason.
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Snake room janitor

In the case of Super Jungles:
The outcome of the litter was not what was expected.....
It is my guess (definitely just a guess) that litters produced from Super Jungles did not prove out (IE) normals were present. This would blow the whole jungle morph out of the water.
I don't think that there would be any reason for the super jungles to be infertile, but it could be that the morph has been drastically misunderstood.
In working with the Cyclones I have come under intense scrutiny from pretty much everyone in the online world, I was told that it could take about 10 years to "prove" out what was going on!
I accept that, but what I don't understand is how did the jungles blow up so fast, and why did everyone assume that they knew how the gene was working?
Is it possible that Jungles are also just another polymorphic genome???
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Robert McPhee
www.BBCExotics.com

We can't say that enough time has not passed to see a super produce after seeing ghost and anery motleys already produced. Lets be realistic, people will sit down and type about waiting 3 years for their females before they start attempting to breed but oh how many times have we seen people go against what they say? I do hope I end up being wrong about this because if they do turn out to be infertile, then it seems like a few people who invested big money towards supers thiking they were going to be able to produce off the hook litters will be SOOL.

If these are super jungles we will see in a few month. I had three striped female albinos ovulate. All are from 2005.
They pictures are outdated.The male produced a litter this year.

np
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Robert McPhee
www.BBCExotics.com

Those are really nice Jungles Andreas, but neither of them appear to be "Supers" . It's hard to see the Albino J but from the Supers that I've seen - they have all had very distinct head/facial marks that set them apart from the non-supers. I don't see that in your pics, but I could be wrong. Did you buy them as Supers ? or did you produce them ? Again, they are very pretty Jungles either way.
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Snake room janitor

Well, back then Peter Kahl called them supers. But now I guess they have to have the head markings and different eyes. The albino jungles I produced.Andreas

That's the problem with forums in general ... a lot of heresay and guessing ... how about some facts?

Scott's original inquiry posed a fair question, but it seems that most of the responses lack any substance.

In defense of the Snow boas, while I admit I do considerable out-breeding, I have never experienced any problems. I did produce over 30 Snows in 2005 and non since (sold many proven breeders, took some out of cycle, etc, etc.). I am not sure that the Super Motleys and Super Jungles have actually be around long enough to know ... many of these projects really take 8-10 years, and quick expectations often fall short.

OK, enough said ... I simply ignore any comments that have nothing factual to offer ... and I don't mean a small test populaton or a 1-time occurance.

I had better stop before I talk myself into a corner.

I can't comment on the breeding of super motleys but I can at least contribute a little information on super motleys. Last May 2007 I produced 7 super motleys. They are indeed unusual animals (they do indeed have a funny build, and their sticking their tongue out like a rattlesnake flicks it is quite delightful), but at this juncture have never missed a meal and are the same size as all of my other 2007 babies (bigger than some).
They are feeding on close to medium sized rats. I have talked to numerous people who wanted to buy these animals and have told all of them because of all the rumours surrounding the supers that I will only sell supers when I personally raise them to maturity and successfully breed them. It doesn't mean it can't be done, I just am happy to delay any sales of the supers until I am convinced that they are viable animals. I am planning on breeding them in 2010 (I don't breed any boa until it is 3 1/2-4). If ANYTHING happens to any of my 7 snakes, I have told numerous people I will be the first to report it. Until that time I will keep raising them and hope for the best. I have 2 males and 5 females. I do think one mutation can be bred into another mutation and make it better. There are strong lines of ball python morphs and there is no question in my mind that these feeding, breeding, reproductive qualities are inheritable.

I have posted numerous photos and data of breeding motleys on our site and I will continue to update our experiences.

In terms of the motleys in general, they are fabulous animals (I have had my first motleys for 6 years now and they are massive!).
If for whatever reason it takes us a while to nail down if this single combination is good-and a viable one I would not let that dissuade me from getting into the motleys, they at least in my experience have been fantastic animals. One must be realistic that we are dealing with biology and mutaions by definition may result in positive and negative results. I tend to let the data do the talking and the results will influence my decisions in the future.

Image

This is what we need ... factual, objective reporting ... unlike what we find going on these days in the political campaigns, not to mention the confused financial markets.

Bill

If you look on Vin Russo's site, he recently paired his super hypo female sonoran to a male super hypo sonoran and had a successful litter. So, in the case of super hypo sonorans, they appear to be fertile. John
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You know you're getting old when you make more noise getting up off the couch than you do during sex.

Well, I find this post very interesting. I do not own a Motley or Jungle but I am looking at buying a male Motley het Albino very soon. I like the Motley and the Super Motley. I have some questions.

I know that a lot of big name breeders who have Super Motleys come on here and post all of the time regarding a lot of different things.

Why aren't these big name breeders responding to this post, it has been up for two days now? I am sure they have seen it.

I think that if Supers are not able to reproduce then it would make Supers more or less worthless.

Who wants to pay that kind of money for " just a pet"?
No one, people who have invested in Supers are hoping to breed them for a big pay day. And think about this, a female Motley or female Jungle would be worth a lot less if Supers could not reproduce because you have to have a female to make Supers. If Supers (in my opinion) are worthless, then why would you even need a female?

If the big name breeders are holding back information it's because they know it will hurt the value of these animals. If they are selling Supers knowing that they are not able to reproduce and they are not telling people then I think that is wrong. There are people buying and trading for Supers all the time. All of these people will end up being hurt in the end.

Where are all of the pics of adult Supers?

Can someone post a pic of a 20lb, or bigger, Super?

Do they reach a point in thier growth and then stop?

Do Supers stay healthy and problem free?

If Super Motleys have a different tongue flicker then a regular Motley is it possible that a Super has a genetic brain disorder?

Doesn't the brain control the tongue?

Maybe the Supers lack certain instincts that are passed on. The brain controls the breeding like how and when, doesn't it?

Is it possible that they are somewhat retarded?

I don't think people should compare Ball Pythons to Boas. They are very different, like apples and oranges. After reading this I am still going to get a male Motley, but now I think females are worth a lot less and a Super in my opinion is worth nothing. I hope all of my questions and all of the questions will soon be answered. I will definatly wait on buying a female Motley for sure. These are some of my thoughts and opinions, I hope no one is offended by any of my questions or remarks. Thanks for reading

I wouldn't worry about it too much.

If you want a male Motley, then get one. If you decide to get a female Motley down the road, that's good too.

It doesn't really matter if Supers turn out to be infertile or not. Male and female Motley's will still be woth the same amount.

I realize that you're thinking the female is only needed to make a "Super", but it's also good to have a female to help diversify your bloodlines.

Also, the prices have become very reasonable lately on them. Actually on a lot of boas.

If anyone is buying boas thinking there's a big pay day coming from breeding boas...... ???

Well, just get what you like. It will be more enjoyable if you keep and breed what you like. Don't worry about the market prices for boas. They change all the time anyway.