Reptile & Amphibian Forums

What are everyones views on cross breeding rat snakes like the creamsiscle corn I just got a "butter cream" and I think there beautiful I love yellow animals but anyway I also feel like I'm distroying the two species. What is everyone elses views on the subject.So to breed or not to breed ??????

Would you like a cockapoolabadoddle???????

Are these snakes just mutts ????

i dont mind hybrids as long as they are sold AS hybrids..... and the buyers know they are hybrids. I have a friend who bred a creamsicle to multiple things... hes not HUGE in corns, but likes the colors.. He had NO CLUE he bred a hybrid until i told him and he's strictly Non-hybrid!!! He felt like a dumb dumb when i told him what he had... but he was glad i told him before he sold them as pure corns....as for the cockadoodle and cockapug i think thats all DUMB! whatever happened to "mutt" thats exactly what they are... i see people selling chiweenies for $1000!!! or CHUGS for $900 WTF!!!! i paid close to that for my champion bloodline Papillon when i had her... which just makes purebreds more expensive.. the dog thing has gone WAY overboard... and i hate it!! i just hope corns dont get as overboard as the stupid Mutts! but thats my 2 cents..
~kin
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~Sober Serpents~
www.freewebs.com/soberserpents
Corns, Creamsicles, A Black Rat, A pair of Leucistic Black Rat X Leucistic Texas Rat Intergrades, Thayeri, Cal Kings, A Jungle Corn, Ball Pythons, Leopard Geckos, Green Anoles, 2 Snapping Turtles, a White Cheeked Mud Turtle, an Eastern Box Turtle, a Bearded Dragon, an Adult Rescue Iguana, and A Baby Iguana

Of course you should never cross breed dog breeds. You must preserve the bloodline of the wild german shepard...oh wait....all dogs are crossbred and inbred...

I do agree that the prices are stupid. But remember ALL dogs start out as non "purebreds"
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3.2.0 Corn Snakes (Jareth, Morkai, Gunner, Selene, Angela)
1.1.0 Ball Pythons
1.0.0 Yorkshire Terrier (Ragnar)
0.1.0 Kenya Sand Boa het Snow (Moo)
0.1.0 Red Tail Boa(Annabelle)

>>What are everyones views on cross breeding rat snakes like the creamsiscle corn I just got a "butter cream" and I think there beautiful I love yellow animals but anyway I also feel like I'm distroying the two species. What is everyone elses views on the subject.So to breed or not to breed ??????
>>
>>Would you like a cockapoolabadoddle???????
>>
>>Are these snakes just mutts ????

well the first thing...MUTTS are the best dogs in the world!!!!
so on that note...I still say there are so many people working with "pure" corns that it would take a true concerted effort by way too many people to dilute the pure populations out of existance.
I work with emoryi/corn crosses and I work with "pure".
Guess what. Breed a corn to an emoryi and you get mixes, right? Well the parents are still corn and emoryi. I can go right back and breed the corn to a corn and get more corns and breed the emoryi and get more emoryis.
I am proud of my emoryi/corn crosses and I am proud of my corns. I see no problem with both

an ugly "mix"

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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

I can go right back and breed the corn to a corn and get more corns and breed the emoryi and get more emoryis.
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it should read the emoryi back to another emoryi and get emoryis
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

I "THINK" since the emory was considered a western corn, or some such, everyone has just accepted that one.

As most people read my posts they know I help at a pet shop. NOW, I see stuff come in from someone that got "something" at a show they for got its name, they got something from a friend. Someones ex left and it was his stuff. Just resently the cops or warden came in and asked the owner to come get some stuff left at a house. He did not pick up the 15' retic there,,,, I would have lol

Point is, many people I see, are not like many in here. They impulse buy, or get a herp because they want something differnt and its cool.

So, for teh first time, I see a few cages with snakes I know are NOT a pure corn, not anything else I've seen or in a book. This will clearly increase. Snakes with corn, bull, king, and milk all in one.. sheeesh. Like my other post, its intriquing as Heck,, But there will be a lot of corn-sumptins, and go-4-milks.

I think as more and more of these unknown snakes become so prevelent, the market will have mutts. No idea how the laws with effect a snake with 3-6 spieces lol. but I think the value of the "more pure" snakes with will be higher than even a cool looking WTF is it. And just like with dogs, there will be a market for each.

And I have to asmit some of teh hybrids are very cool. Bat eaters and Carpet x GTPs can be outstanding.

But jimmy said something interesting. He can alwasy breed a corn to a corn. That is if you don't breed all your stock into hybrids. And I do think with laws getting stricker, the more pure snake will carry a much higher value in years to come over more common hybrids.

My halfpence.
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com

well, i have a few hybrids and intergrades... Technically corn and emoryi are intergrades... and my leucy texas rat X Leucy black rat mixes are intergrades... but i do have 1 really cool cal king X Corn cross. the "jungle corn" cost me a pretty penny at the pet store... but i would truthfully LOVE to make more and i hope to make more next year...
here he is:

heres my leucy intergrades- i need to update their photos.. they are larger now:

he's and albino striped cal king. his colors are stunning!!! my husband LOVES stripeds and i just HAD to have him... i have seen some other males in the kingsnake.com classifieds for the same price i got my adult... but no one has told me the snake was ugly...

NOW as for some hybrids... like "Albino Thayeri X nelsons" Are BS b/c there is NO SUCH THING as an albino thayeri. and people are looking at the name and say- hey- albino thayeri... but it doesnt exist. i know alot of people who want an albino thayeri... when i tell them there is no such thing they dont believe me... or people try to sell "albino thayeri" which is out crossed hybrids into regular thayeri and "assume" its PURE. Kinda makes me mad...

heres some of my thayeri....

~kin
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~Sober Serpents~
www.freewebs.com/soberserpents
Corns, Creamsicles, A Black Rat, A pair of Leucistic Black Rat X Leucistic Texas Rat Intergrades, Thayeri, Cal Kings, A Jungle Corn, Ball Pythons, Leopard Geckos, Green Anoles, 2 Snapping Turtles, a White Cheeked Mud Turtle, an Eastern Box Turtle, a Bearded Dragon, an Adult Rescue Iguana, and A Baby Iguana

That Jungle corn is a great looking animal.
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Arlon Delorge
Classic Constrictors

thanks you i hope to breed him in the near future
~kin
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~Sober Serpents~
www.freewebs.com/soberserpents
Corns, Creamsicles, A Black Rat, A pair of Leucistic Black Rat X Leucistic Texas Rat Intergrades, Thayeri, Cal Kings, A Jungle Corn, Ball Pythons, Leopard Geckos, Green Anoles, 2 Snapping Turtles, an Eastern Box Turtle, a Bearded Dragon, an Adult Rescue Iguana, and A Baby Iguana

"But jimmy said something interesting. He can alwasy breed a corn to a corn. That is if you don't breed all your stock into hybrids. And I do think with laws getting stricker, the more pure snake will carry a much higher value in years to come over more common hybrids."

I have some projects that are "hybrids" and that is what I have, a few projects.. I realize that some folks think because some hobbiest does a few projects that all of their animals must have been crossed..

Of course if we look back, and realize that their is a lot of emoryi already bred into corns, a lot of people might just be shocked.. Ya, I have some emoryi, yes they are strickly for emory projects, and no, I have no desire at this time to create more rootbeers from a different line of emoryi.. Of course, this does not mean I am not capable using existing creams or rootbeers for some projects eithier.. Yes, we strive to work with corn projects as well, and refuse, due to my personal integrity to sell something as something else knowing very well I have lied.. Not cool..

Anyways, this is a good thread and thanks to the OP who started it..

Regards.. Tim of T and J

Is that a striped albino Emory's?

>>Is that a striped albino Emory's?

Stripe creamsicle
(striped amelanistic corn/emoryi cross)

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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

I know that I'm still fairly new here but I've got to say..

Jimmy, I think that's right, sorry if its not..

Every time I see one of your creams, the stripes, mots, whatever, my jaw drops. You've got a damn fine line of corn/emoryi that you're working with!!

Keep doing the hybrid thing, because those are screamers!!

>>I know that I'm still fairly new here but I've got to say..
>>
>>Jimmy, I think that's right, sorry if its not..
>>
>>Every time I see one of your creams, the stripes, mots, whatever, my jaw drops. You've got a damn fine line of corn/emoryi that you're working with!!
>>
>>Keep doing the hybrid thing, because those are screamers!!

wow
thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

Creamsicles were first considered to be intergrades between corns and Great Plains Ratsnakes. They naturally intergrade in nature, according to many field guides, including Roger Conant's, which is the best selling book in herpetology.

GPRs have since been reclassified as a seperate species. Some people go along with this reclassification, others don't. Reclassifications only become "official" when the herpetological community (or whatever category of science) "buys into" the idea. There have been reclassifications of rat snakes that have been flatly rejected.

At any rate, creamsicles started off being marketed as intergrades and now they are largely viewed as hybrids, although by the time I finish writing this post, they'll probably be reclassified again as something else.

As far as acceptability of hybrids, I've been into reptiles for a long time. I've been to the biggests shows. The number of people breeding hybrids has undoubtably increased, but so has the number of people breeding "pure" animals.

What hasn't changed is MARKETSHARE. As far as I can tell over the last 20 years snakes being marketed as hybrids make up less than 5% of animals seen at shows. This has not increased. During the same timeframe ball pythons have exploded on the market, gaining marketshare. Crested Geckos went from zero (because they were though to be extinct) to being one of the most popular lizards - therefore they gained marketshare.

Some herps have gained and then decreased or stabilized in marketshare (hognose snakes, leopard geckos, rainbow boas).

So if you ask me, hybrids have had over to decades to "catch on" but still haven't done so. There could be a number of reasons for this.

As far as creamsicles, I really like them - hybrids or not. The babies tend to be better feeders than "pure" corns and I dig the faded appearance of creams.

Tim

Third Eye

>>Creamsicles were first considered to be intergrades between corns and Great Plains Ratsnakes. They naturally intergrade in nature, according to many field guides, including Roger Conant's, which is the best selling book in herpetology.
>>
>>GPRs have since been reclassified as a seperate species. Some people go along with this reclassification, others don't. Reclassifications only become "official" when the herpetological community (or whatever category of science) "buys into" the idea. There have been reclassifications of rat snakes that have been flatly rejected.
>>
>>At any rate, creamsicles started off being marketed as intergrades and now they are largely viewed as hybrids, although by the time I finish writing this post, they'll probably be reclassified again as something else.
>>
>>As far as acceptability of hybrids, I've been into reptiles for a long time. I've been to the biggests shows. The number of people breeding hybrids has undoubtably increased, but so has the number of people breeding "pure" animals.
>>
>>What hasn't changed is MARKETSHARE. As far as I can tell over the last 20 years snakes being marketed as hybrids make up less than 5% of animals seen at shows. This has not increased. During the same timeframe ball pythons have exploded on the market, gaining marketshare. Crested Geckos went from zero (because they were though to be extinct) to being one of the most popular lizards - therefore they gained marketshare.
>>
>>Some herps have gained and then decreased or stabilized in marketshare (hognose snakes, leopard geckos, rainbow boas).
>>
>>So if you ask me, hybrids have had over to decades to "catch on" but still haven't done so. There could be a number of reasons for this.
>>
>>As far as creamsicles, I really like them - hybrids or not. The babies tend to be better feeders than "pure" corns and I dig the faded appearance of creams.
>>
>>Tim
>>
>>Third Eye

very well put, Tim
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

DANG IT. New KB and I hit something and lost my post. This time much shorter.

Tim we talked many times about this. I did not ignore your words. I just had to cipher them a spell.

I hope your right on the market share not changing.

Someone mentioned there is no albino theyeri. But yea they cross the albino nelsoni with a lot of things. but how many generation of taking that first hybrid and crossing it back to a "pure" theyeri, to get hets. Then again and and again to "pure theyeri. At what point would this project produce a theyeri that looked pure? OK theyeri is not worth the effert maybe? But there are a few snakes out there that are. Thats the part that really scares me. Not for me. But for others trying to play the money game with snakes.

Imaging dropping $10 grand on a snake, you later found out was not what it was. I know I'd be pithed. 'nough said on all that.

yea creamoras are spankin. I gave mine to Tally a few years ago. She was a VERY nice one.

Hows those Florida boxies? I kick myself for not snatching them up. Especially since I know where they came from. But glad they got a good home.
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com

i've seen some thayeri X nelsons hybrids bred back to thayeri that look almost like a true thayeri... heck.. a friend of mine bred 2 thayeri and got 1 hatchling that looks like a mex mex.... how weird is that!?!?!
~kin
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~Sober Serpents~
www.freewebs.com/soberserpents
Corns, Creamsicles, A Black Rat, A pair of Leucistic Black Rat X Leucistic Texas Rat Intergrades, Thayeri, Cal Kings, A Jungle Corn, Ball Pythons, Leopard Geckos, Green Anoles, 2 Snapping Turtles, a White Cheeked Mud Turtle, an Eastern Box Turtle, a Bearded Dragon, an Adult Rescue Iguana, and A Baby Iguana

http://www.herpo.com/colubrids/thayeri.html

Rather cool snake, also called the poor mans alterna.
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com

yep- there are 3 color phases of thayeri. Melanistic ehich is kinda sorta rare in a way.. Leonis which can come in oranges, yellows, greys, etc and then there is a MSP (milk snake phase) I have mostly leonis and a MSP on order
~kin
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~Sober Serpents~
www.freewebs.com/soberserpents
Corns, Creamsicles, A Black Rat, A pair of Leucistic Black Rat X Leucistic Texas Rat Intergrades, Thayeri, Cal Kings, A Jungle Corn, Ball Pythons, Leopard Geckos, Green Anoles, 2 Snapping Turtles, a White Cheeked Mud Turtle, an Eastern Box Turtle, a Bearded Dragon, an Adult Rescue Iguana, and A Baby Iguana

....
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Jeremy Pierce
Shade Tree Exotics
shade-tree-exotics@att.net

I'd say go for it. A lot of the creamscicle morphs are just awesome. I've seen some very good looking ones here on this forum. In fact, some of the prettiest I've ever seen.

I haven't done any hybrid projects yet but I will. I have a male corn/yellow rat hybrid that I've been meaning to do something with and I've decided to breed him to a female creamscicle next season. This will create a yellow/corn/emoryi mix het amel. I'm curious to see what effect some yellow rat blood has in the second generation of this project on the amel hatchlings. Maybe a new creamscicle look??

Only one way to find out. IF this project works...that's a big IF...I will put the babies out there for exactly what they are....3 species hybrids. If a breeder is working some hybrid projects, then that breeder does have to be honest about what's in the snakes that are produced.