Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I had a couple of boas that were not eating but they had large distended bellies. I took one to the vet today, someone that was refered to me as a good snake doc, and basically I'm being told it needs to be euthinized and a necropsy done. The vet is saying that he doesn't know what it is but is suspecting krypto..... inflammation of the stomach lining caused by a parasite. None of the parents have any problems, the babies have eaten and defficated, but have lately refused food. All are kept in their own sterilite shoe box with paper towel as their only substrate. It's hard to photograph but I did as best I could. I appreciate any help.

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Scott

Is the lump(s) hard and solid, or does it feel gassy ?
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Snake room janitor

It feels more squishy. I wouldn't say gassy, but definitely not hard
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Scott

I would say Cryptosporidia. Although it could be a gas forming bacteria such as swarming Proteus.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

John I want to know more about swarming Proteus what is it ?
I've definitely heard of Proteus Thanks
. . . . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz
Boas By Klevitz

It is a facultative anaerobe, gas producing, Gram Negative, motile rod bacillus, associated with putrefaction.
Just Google up Proteus vulgaris.
I had a snake with that. Turned the snake's abdomen into one huge gas bag.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

I've had young Boas get blown up with gas likwe this in the past. I helped them pass the gas and usually fecal matter as well. They ended up being fine.
. . . . . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz
Boas By Klevitz

how did you help them pass the gas?
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Scott

Soaked them in warm water then worked the gas and anything else down towards cloaca with my fingers.
Very carefully of course,you don't want to blow their intestines out on the inside.
The Boas were of course sensitive and grouchy but once we got them moving they really seemed appreciate.
Seem to understand I was helping. I'm sure it hurts badly just like our belly aches do.
Your vets diagnosis seems radical to me. Although the Vet has the medical degree not me.
I just believe it is worth trying to help an animal rather then give up and say."nothing can be done kill it"
. . . . . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz
Boas By Klevitz

He may just be dehydrated and thin. I have seen neonates with the big abdomen, probably from birthing with considerable yolk remaining inside. Maybe try increasing the heat and humidity. Not heat alone. That may also be part of the problem.
Spray mist him and the enclosure couple times a day. Bring temp up to about 88 or 90 for a few days. He may eat after a day or so of that regime. Then you can see how well he processes the food. Which may indicate whether he may have Crypto or not.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

the swelling will be fairly solid and these snakes will show regurgitations within a few days of feeding and/or diarrhea. Until the exact cause is determined, strictly quarantine these snakes. If it is crypto, the direct life cycle makes it highly contagious, and not all infected snakes show symptoms, but may be carriers. If the swelling is soft or like a gas pocket and no regurges or diarrhea are present, it is probably not crypto.

Kelly

No diarrhea and no regurge. I just wish there was a better way to fiure out other than killing it. If it is the crypto thing, then I want to make sure the rest of the snakes are ok. Vet says there is nothing you can do to prevent it.
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Scott

>>the swelling will be fairly solid and these snakes will show regurgitations within a few days of feeding and/or diarrhea. Until the exact cause is determined, strictly quarantine these snakes. If it is crypto, the direct life cycle makes it highly contagious, and not all infected snakes show symptoms, but may be carriers. If the swelling is soft or like a gas pocket and no regurges or diarrhea are present, it is probably not crypto.
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>>Kelly

I agree with the above. Snakes infected with Cryptosporidium serpentis in the chronic state will be hard lumps. A gastric biopsy is the only method accepted as accurate for diagnosis.
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Sublime Boa Constrictor

I think that can be done with a needle, without killing the snake. Right?
Must have a good vet. Probably pretty expensive.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

I brought a young bci into a vet with a similar problem.

They never brought this up but it seems similar to what has been mentioned.

What the vet did at the time was to prick the swollen area with a needle just to see if it was in fact fluids, blood, or just air/gas.

It was just air, and back then I simply treated the bci with bene-bac or nutri-bac and this took care of that situation.

We figured it was an overload of intestinal parasites. Thing is, it wasn't a wild/farmed/ch animal. That would've made more sense.

I did think it could've been from water contaminated with feces/urine.

Not sure if the underlying problems were/are the same.

The procedure wasn't expensive, actually, I don't think I was charged for the 'prick', just for a general exam... was under $100.
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Thanks and take care - Joe Rollo
'Tis not the stongest of the species that will eventually survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change' Charles Darwin

>>I think that can be done with a needle, without killing the snake. Right?
>>Must have a good vet. Probably pretty expensive.
>>jsc
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>>"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
>>John Crickmer

Yes, it can be done arthroscopically. Yes, it requires a knowledgeable vet. And yes, it probably won't be all that cheap.

Rick
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Sublime Boa Constrictor

used a carbol-fuchsin acid fast stain procedure on fecal material to identify the oocysts. It stains them pink and they can be seen under 400 power or easily under 1,000 power. As you stated, the biopsy method is more conclusive, however more invasive. Thanks,

Kelly

>>used a carbol-fuchsin acid fast stain procedure on fecal material to identify the oocysts. It stains them pink and they can be seen under 400 power or easily under 1,000 power. As you stated, the biopsy method is more conclusive, however more invasive. Thanks,
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>>Kelly

Although they can be detected through Gastric lavages, direct or fecal floatation exams, and enzyme linked immunosorbent assays (ELISA's), from what I understand, there is a high risk of misdiagnosis, due to rodents carrying a very similar oocyst, which is not infective to snakes.

The ones infective to snakes will attach themselves to the gastric mucosa. If the gastric biopsy shows little round bodies sitting on the surface of the mucosa, then the snake is infected.

As I understand it anyway.
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Sublime Boa Constrictor

Most vets that I have spoken with about this use an acid-fast stain first and if it is positive confirm it with a PCR (polymerase chain reaction).

As far as biopsy costs go, just sticking a needle in something, like a palpable lump is usually considered a fine needle aspirate and very cheap, but doing a guided needle biopsy of internal tissues is a much bigger endeavor and would be more costly.

Some real good stuff here. I have read somewhere or heard that the acid fast stain fecal float is a diagnostic for crypto.
Thanks for all the input.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

While acid-fast stain, or enzyme-linked immunoassay (ELISA) procedures will not identify cryptosporidia oocysts to species level, they can be a very effective diagnostic tool when used in conjunction with animals that are symptomatic. As far as misdiagnosis due to prey species carryover of crypto oocyts, this can usually be ruled out by fecal exam on the feeder animals being used, and by the snake exhibiting multiple symptoms of crypto infection.

To confirm diagnosis on an asymptomatic carrier, or to confirm other procedures, the PCR – DNA amplification procedure is more informative as it will identify crypto to species level. Additionally, the resolution and lower detection level for oocysts with this procedure is several hundred times that of the other procedures listed above. In one of the previous posts, jhsulliv is correct in that the most logical step is to run an acid-stain, then confirm if necessary by PCR. I have run the carbol-fuchsin acid fast stain procedure many times in the past, and it is fairly straight forward and not overly time consuming. I have never used the PCR procedure, but am familiar with it. It is complicated, time consuming, and more than likely fairly expensive, but is probably the most accurate. The gastric biopsy will confirm as well, but as I stated before, is highly invasive, and obviously more risky than the PCR procedure, especially on smaller snakes.

Kelly

>>While acid-fast stain, or enzyme-linked immunoassay (ELISA) procedures will not identify cryptosporidia oocysts to species level, they can be a very effective diagnostic tool when used in conjunction with animals that are symptomatic. As far as misdiagnosis due to prey species carryover of crypto oocyts, this can usually be ruled out by fecal exam on the feeder animals being used, and by the snake exhibiting multiple symptoms of crypto infection.
>>
>>To confirm diagnosis on an asymptomatic carrier, or to confirm other procedures, the PCR – DNA amplification procedure is more informative as it will identify crypto to species level. Additionally, the resolution and lower detection level for oocysts with this procedure is several hundred times that of the other procedures listed above. In one of the previous posts, jhsulliv is correct in that the most logical step is to run an acid-stain, then confirm if necessary by PCR. I have run the carbol-fuchsin acid fast stain procedure many times in the past, and it is fairly straight forward and not overly time consuming. I have never used the PCR procedure, but am familiar with it. It is complicated, time consuming, and more than likely fairly expensive, but is probably the most accurate. The gastric biopsy will confirm as well, but as I stated before, is highly invasive, and obviously more risky than the PCR procedure, especially on smaller snakes.
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>>Kelly

Good stuff! I don't disagree at all either.

It's just been my experience, when you start with the simplest tests, that gives you non definitive answers, then it leads to another test, and sometimes another, until the suspected problem is ruled out, or you get to the most accurate test. LOL

The vet I have now is a very competent herp vet, and I agree with him about doing the most accurate testing the first time, when something potentially fatal is suspected. Costly? I've spent a small fortune. Invasive? Sometimes it is at that. LIFE SAVING? Almost always.
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Sublime Boa Constrictor

So Just got off the phone with the vet. He used a needle and pulled out about 8cc of greenish fluid that under a microscope looked to have some bacteria in it. He is now not thinking crypto, but a gallbladder or bile duct problem. I'll try and get you guys informed as I find out more info. I appreciate all the help you've given.

Scott
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Scott

I hope it goes well. The lab should be able to confirm if it is bile quite quickly and I'm assuming they will do a culture and sensitivity on the fluid as well. Just keep us posted as to the findings.