Reptile & Amphibian Forums

So im thinking about trying my hand at breeding my corns sometime in the future here...probably sometime in the next year. I'm just wondering if anyone knows what i might expect from a breeding project with a Bloodred male and a reverse okeetee female? The genetics of the bloodred, if i recall correctly, are a little tricky - so i have no idea what to expect. Im not GREAT with genetics, still learning for sure...so i figured i would throw it out there and see what you think.
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1.1 Bearded Dragons
2.2 Leopard Geckos
1.0 Uromastyx (Mali)
1.1 Corn snakes
0.1 Mexican Black Kingsnake
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake
1.0 Rosy Boa
1.1 Green Anoles
1.1 House Geckos
0.0.2 Flying Geckos
0.0.1 Red Eye Tree Frog

unless the bloodred has a "hidden" gene you will get all normals het bloodred and amel

~kin
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~Sober Serpents~
www.freewebs.com/soberserpents
Corns, Creamsicles, A Black Rat, A pair of Leucistic Black Rat X Leucistic Texas Rat Intergrades, Thayeri, Cal Kings, A Jungle Corn, Ball Pythons, Leopard Geckos, Green Anoles, 2 Snapping Turtles, an Eastern Box Turtle, a Bearded Dragon, an Adult Rescue Iguana, and A Baby Iguana

1. Diffusion, that is the fading of the pattern on the side of the corn snake.

2. The overall matching of background color to the saddle (or normally red spot) of a corn snake.

3. MAYBE even the fact that the black ring area is super narrow if at all, much like a sunglow was line bred for.

NOW.

1. The Diffused gene (called episkiastism) was proven to be a simple recessive gene. But I also read recently that it was co=dom? On this point I would like to ask Tim Spuckler if he has any pictures of all the babies born between his snake and mine. I think it was 04. It could shed some light on this matter. All you have to do is post Tim. Thank You.

2. The matching color is TO ME, more of a locale issue. Not a simple recessive gene or even 2 genes.
Much like a "look-a-tee" or okeetee phase (a corn snake that looks like a okeetee, but no lineage to pure okeetee from Jasper county), I presume one could line breed a normal corn to look like a bloodred? But I would also guess it would take a very very long time.

3. The slight black ring issue. Or as I sometimes say, hypoISH. Again, this is a locale trait to the first bloodreds found. Natures line breeding project. IMHOOC.

So, I don't think the bloodred is really hetable in it's entirety. In fact, I call it non-hetable. Except for the diffused gene.

It would be like crossing a candy cane with a reverse okeetee. And saying they are het okeetee and candy cane.

Maybe a better example would be to breed a "pure" (what ever that is) bloodred, with no hets, to a normal corn also with no hets. Then all the babies should be normal het for bloodred.

Now breed the het bloodred babies together and you should get 25% "pure" bloodreds. and the rest 66% chance of het for bloodred. And I've never seen one of those for sale.

All this said, I understand why they are called hets. In fact, I still remember Don. S. giving an outstanding reason why. I just think terms should be better. And some type of standard adhered to. We will soon have half a dozen ways to get at many phenotypes.

Then what?
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com

So...(forgive me, im trying to get a grip on genetics here)...this is how im understanding these morphs...

The Reverse Okeetee is a selectively bred trait - not a strictly simple recessive type trait...so is it safe to say that hatchlings would not be Het for RO, but instead would show varying traits of the mother...and possibly some suprises would crop up, depending on the genetics of the snakes that were parents of the mother? Or am i way off? (Im tying to decypher this info from my Cornsnake Morph guide - it refers to the RO as not being un-hetable)

With the bloodred..this is where things are getting complicated...in the morph guide is it refered to as "variable co-dominant" and my understanding is there are multiple genes playing a role here - much as was described to me above.

The Diffused pattern appears to be variable...so hatchlings would show varying degrees of diffusion? According to the book - if the Diffused gene was bred to a "wild type" gene the results would produce a varying amount of diffusion.

So my basic understanding is there would be GREAT amounts of variation amoung all the babies...however they would technically be "het" for the diffused gene? Am i correct?

Also, im thinking about purchasing a female bloodred and breeding her with my male bloodred....does the varied effect of the diffused gene still come into play here? Or would you get more consistant results as the animals would be getting the diffused gene from both parents?

Thanks for the help - sorry about all the questions!!
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1.1 Bearded Dragons
2.2 Leopard Geckos
1.0 Uromastyx (Mali)
1.1 Corn snakes
0.1 Mexican Black Kingsnake
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake
1.0 Rosy Boa
1.1 Green Anoles
1.1 House Geckos
0.0.2 Flying Geckos
0.0.1 Red Eye Tree Frog

OK, I'll start almost all my posts with "my understanding" SO:

A Reverse Okeetee is an Amel Okeetee. I presume it is line bred as most morphs really for brightness and contrast. But I think it is just 1 recessive gene and the regular amel gene.

Bloodreds I guess act as co dominat/incomplete dominate. The 2 term had different definitions but to make it really confusing, a co dom gene can act like an incom dom and vice verse. Then add in a group of people from one area like boas can use co dom in one way and corn people can use it in another. confused yet? I am. It makes no sense that a science of genetic allows such ambiguity.

SO, I'll drop the term all together.

Lets use this example. You breed a very dark WC corn to a very light WC corn. Being wild caught they have no recessive genes. you breed then and get babies range from close to the light, to close to the dark. This is what basically happens with the bloodred colors. The diffused side is suppose to be 1 recessive gene? but as I stated, I also read that it is co dom? Now, what version of co dom did the people mean I don't know.

If you have either Kathy's or Don's book, I would take it as gospel. in fact, if Kathy or Don disagree with my explanation I would certainly like to hear it. if I'm wrong, I'd prefer to know where than not knowing.

This is just 1 example of why I'd like to see a lexicon of morphs. it will never replace books. but to see 50-100 of variations of a snow, or a bloodred outcross would be valuable. With that all said, I'm kind of playing with a gallery right now for that. No fees, no ads, not to make money. I'm retired and just to much time on my hands and I see a need for one.

I hope that helps
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com