Reptile & Amphibian Forums

About a month ago I posted about my cat knocking over my incubator, then a few weeks later I posted that all hatched out....well, things are going terrible with these little guys! I'm not sure if this is a genetic problem or if it was caused by the eggs being shuck up, but some of the babies have only one good eye, and the other eye is tiny! One baby spins around in circles like he is off balance (glad to say though that this little guy can still catch his crickets just fine....I've nicknamed him "Swirvin' Irvin", but the most heartbreaking was a baby that only had half of his mouth! The other half was jointed together by skin. I had this problem corrected, but the poor little guy still had no use of his mouth (he couldn't chew). I had to feed him veggie baby food through an eyedrop. He eventually died and it tore my heart out. This little guy stole my heart, he had the sweetest little face! One little girl came out with a kinked tail... When these guys started hatching out, I didn't notice a problem, until the last baby came out and I noticed the eye problem, so I checked them all, and sure enough, there is about 3 of them that has this problem. Now one has developed a hard lump in his stomach. I'm thinking that these problems are genetic therefore the female will never be bred again, but do you think that there is a chance that the eggs being flipped had anything to do with it? I'm very upset because when I got this female, the guy told me she was proven, that means that he had to know about the problems her offspring had. I know that it wasen't inherited from the dad, he has fathered other clutches and the babies were all 100% healthy. Any input on this would be greatly appreciated! I will try to post a pic of one of the babies with the bad eye sometime tomorrow. Thanks, Christy

I really don't think the fall had anything to so with it, my daighter knocked my incubator sideways just days before they hatched, scarred me to death, (it was my 1st clutch) I had been waiting all that time all excited for them to hatch, and that happened, I think I jumped on here all frantic, I got all the eggs layed back like I thought they were suppose to be, and everything went smooth, all my babies hatched out fine with no problems at all, I would defintly say it was a genetic thing if all the babies had funny eyes....I feel sorry for them but I would say CheriS would be able to answer your questions better than anyone on here, you may want to e-mail her privatly by some wierd chance she don't get on here..maybe the dragons are somehow related to one another, don't know if the same thing goes for dragons, but I know an inbred snake sometimes has missing or smaller eyes..good luck

Sounds like a genetic problem from what your describing.
The eggs were only flipped over about 2 weeks before hatching and I seriously doubt that could have caused the problems you are seeing in these babies.

So sorry

>>About a month ago I posted about my cat knocking over my incubator, then a few weeks later I posted that all hatched out....well, things are going terrible with these little guys! I'm not sure if this is a genetic problem or if it was caused by the eggs being shuck up, but some of the babies have only one good eye, and the other eye is tiny! One baby spins around in circles like he is off balance (glad to say though that this little guy can still catch his crickets just fine....I've nicknamed him "Swirvin' Irvin", but the most heartbreaking was a baby that only had half of his mouth! The other half was jointed together by skin. I had this problem corrected, but the poor little guy still had no use of his mouth (he couldn't chew). I had to feed him veggie baby food through an eyedrop. He eventually died and it tore my heart out. This little guy stole my heart, he had the sweetest little face! One little girl came out with a kinked tail... When these guys started hatching out, I didn't notice a problem, until the last baby came out and I noticed the eye problem, so I checked them all, and sure enough, there is about 3 of them that has this problem. Now one has developed a hard lump in his stomach. I'm thinking that these problems are genetic therefore the female will never be bred again, but do you think that there is a chance that the eggs being flipped had anything to do with it? I'm very upset because when I got this female, the guy told me she was proven, that means that he had to know about the problems her offspring had. I know that it wasen't inherited from the dad, he has fathered other clutches and the babies were all 100% healthy. Any input on this would be greatly appreciated! I will try to post a pic of one of the babies with the bad eye sometime tomorrow. Thanks, Christy
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Lisa
www.beginnersbasics.com

This can pretty much tell you if it was from that or something else.

For these types of problems, the eggs would have had to be bumped earlier in the development, the first few weeks. That is when the cells are dividing and creating the body parts.

A few other things can cause the combination of developement defects of blindness, eyes not forming, kinked tails and neuro problems.

Temperature spikes in the first few weeks, inbreeding and viral infections in the mother.

I have never seen a dragon that will genetically throw these wide ranges of problems in offsprings unless it was related to the one it was bred with. And then those are classic examples of what can happen. I have seen several that will have this in ALL clutches when she a viral infection. And it also can happen in very young mothers. You say she was proven, so I assume that she is not that young.

A history of what you know of the dragon (location she came from, bloodline and location that she and the male's parents came from)can help determine if it may be one of those things.

Can you email me with some history? Like where she came from, what you know of her bloodling and his, her age, weight and length, does she thrive well and did she recover from laying normally, are there other clutches incubating or was this the only one, how long you had her before she laid eggs (these may not be the fathers' you think it is offspring).

We keep data on many dragons and breeders, have for 4 years now and can see if they have a history of other problems or the likelyhood that yours are related.

Last year there was a breeder that sold off mass amounts of adult "proven" females or "holdbacks" that we know had a viral infection in their colony, suspected the other dragons might have it and sure enough, some of those females have produced babies with these same symptoms this year and found to carry the virus.

The eggs were only 2 weeks away from hatching when they were knocked over. I'm pretty sure that this is a genetic problem and not from the incubator, but I wanted as much info on this as possible. The female will never be bred again, I had thought about adopting her out for a pet but then got worried about someone getting her for the wrong reason (I remember what happened to Chris Allen not long ago with one of his dragons) so I decided against it, I love her too much to send her off to someone that will use her for a baby machine. This female is sappose to be 2 years old, though to me she looks a bit older. I had her for about 3 months before she was bred to my male. She gained weight back very nicely after laying so I never thought there was a problem. How long can a female store sperm? I recall someone on here once saying that a female can store sperm for awhile, so could it be possible that these babies belong a male that she was bred to in the past before I got her? Thanks so much for your input! Christy

to the next or approximately 6 months. I have heard that it has been a year, but not documented. SO yes, it is very possible they are not from the male you bred her too. It has also happened that two different father fertilized the same clutch, several months apart.

About it being genetic: Unless she was inbreed with a close relative, you would not get the different defects. A genetic defect is in the chromosone and will in almost all cases cause a particular defect in offspring, not multiple ones. There are rare genetic defects that will cause several symptoms like one that causes heart value defects also almost all will have a cleft palate also, but these are rare.

With the variety you are seeing in her clutch, I do not beleive it is at her genetic level. If she was bred to a close relative, then you get so many chromosones that can be alike you can have a wide variety of defective ones and multiple problems in the offspring depending on which chromosomes match up from the parents.

I think that this was the case with her or, a viral infection that she carries or temperature fluctuations in the early stages of development.

Thanks to all that responded, I really appreciate it. I am now pretty sure that this is a genetic problem therefore Lucy will no longer be bred. I'm not sure if it's from her side or if these babies belong to a male that she bred to before I got her. I had her 3 months before she was bred, but I remember someone on here saying a female can store sperm for awhile (how long I do not know). I don't want to take any chances though so she will not be bred again. I don't want any more babies to have to suffer like these poor little guys. There is only about 3 that has the eye problem, not the whole clutch. The ones with the eye problem are doing fine, they can still chase down their crickets and eat their veggies, also the one with the "spinning" problem can eat just fine, but the one with the mouth problem yanked my heart out! He tried so hard to be a normal little baby, he would try to eat with no luck. I had alot of time and love invested in him and when I lost him it crushed me. Its amazing how quickly and how much you can fall in love with these little guys. I love them all but that little guy will always have a special place in my heart. Christy