Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I am being told that shipping Lewisi Hybrids across State lines requires a Federal Permit. I was under the impression that you did not need a Permit. Can anyone point me in the right direction? Where can I find the law in writting, etc...

Manny

Hey Manny,
My understanding was that you need a permit for full blooded lewisi because of the endangered species act. Hybrids are exempt from this unless they made a recent change in the law. You can check out www.cites.org to find out more. I hope this helps.
Take care,
John

I just had one shipped to me across state lines last week.

Also, David Blair ships them across state lines without permits... so I think someone is giving you wrong information.

Michael.

I hope it's legal but just because everyone is doing it doesn't mean it's legal. I don't want to hear what someone else says on their website. Show me the law that excludes Cyclura Hybrids.

Here is the only thing I can find on the Internet about CITES and Hybrids. Unless there is something uniquely written for Cyclura, that without a Federal Permit, it is illegal to ship Hybrids across state lines if one or more of the blood lines of the animal is Appendix I.

Conf. 10.17 (Rev. CoP14)*
Animal hybrids

RECALLING Resolution Conf. 2.13 on the problem of hybrids, adopted by the Conference of the Parties at its second meeting (San José, 1979);

CONCERNED that trade in hybrids of species included in the Appendices should be controlled in order to support the controls on trade in the species included in Appendices I and II;

"THE CONFERENCE OF THE PARTIES TO THE CONVENTION
DECIDES that:

a) hybrid animals that have in their recent lineage one or more specimens of species included in Appendix I or II shall be subject to the provisions of the Convention just as if they were full species, even if the hybrid concerned is not specifically included in the Appendices;

b) if at least one of the animals in the recent lineage is of a species included in Appendix I, the hybrids shall be treated as specimens of species included in Appendix I (and shall be eligible for the exemptions of Article VII when applicable);

c) if at least one of the animals in the recent lineage is of a species included in Appendix II, and there are no specimens of an Appendix-I species in such lineage, the hybrids shall be treated as specimens of species included in Appendix II; and

d) as a guideline, the words "recent lineage", as used in this Resolution, shall generally be interpreted to refer to the previous four generations of the lineage;

RECOMMENDS that, when Parties are considering the making of non-detriment findings, in accordance with Article III, paragraph 2 (a), or Article IV, paragraph 2 (a), for specimens of hybrids that are subject to the provisions of the Convention, they take into account any potential detriment to the survival of the listed species; and

REPEALS Resolution Conf. 2.13 (San José, 1979) – Problem of Hybrids.

* Amended at the 11th and 14th meetings of the Conference of the Parties."

http://www.cites.org/eng/res/10/10-17R14.shtml

That is way outdated (1979).
I have a letter from US Fish and Wildlife stating the following:
"Hybrid crosses of these two subspecies(C.n.caymanensis and C.n. lewisi) are exempt from the ESA regulations and don't need permits."

It is signed by Kristen Nelson Office of Management Authority, DOI and dated 23 November 1998.

You could always contact Department of Interior and get their take on it.
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1.0.0 Cuban/Cayman Hybrid Iguana
0.1.0 Cuban Iguana
1.0.0 Ctenosaura Similis
1.2.0 Mali Uromastyx
1.3.0 Leopard Geckoes
0.0.2 Armadillo Lizards
0.1.0 Bearded Dragon
1.2.0 Angel Island Chuckwallas
0.1.0 Sulcata Tortoises
1.0.0 Western Painted Turtles
0.0.3 Red Eared Sliders

Yes you are correct Manny it is against CITES but I am under the impression that here in the States the ESA takes presidence over CITES. And it is ok by the ESA rules. Now if you try to send the hybrid to another country then CITES takes over and all rules apply as if you were sending a pure blood endangered species.

Is the case different for cayman brac nubila then? Blair's website says
http://www.herpnut.com/page.php?page=iguanadetail&id=5
"California sales only on these Threatened animals." Not to muddy the waters, but is Blair following the esa or cites when he makes this statement for pure Nubila? Or is this just an instance where the esa has not deviated from cites?

He is going by the United States Endangered Species Act. It is illegal to transport and endangered species accross state lines for the purpose of economic gain. Hybrids are exempt under the ESA, pure breds are not. A permit for the interstate transfer of an endangered species is required under the ESA. That is why he will not sell the caymen bracs accross state lines. There is to much redtape and time envolved in getting the required permit and they are almost always turned down for any endangered cyclura.

The only documentation I know about is a letter dated November 23, 1998 that mentions that Hybrids are not covered by the ESA, but has the law changed since then? There are people telling me that it has changed and the USFWS is saying it is ileagal. I don't want to open up a can of Rotten Worms but just want to be sure that the policy is the same. The letter is now 10 years old. Alot can happen in 10 years. They just (if I'm not mistaken) changed the name of Cyclura Nubila Lewisi to Cyclura lewisi. Did thatlegally change anything?

§ 23.43 What are the requirements for a wildlife hybrid?
(a) Definition . For the purposes of this section, recent lineage means the last four generations of a specimen's ancestry (direct line of descent).

(b) U.S. and foreign general provisions . Except as provided in paragraph (f) of this section, the import, export, or re-export of a hybrid CITES wildlife specimen must be accompanied by a valid CITES document.

(c) CITES documents . All CITES documents must show the wildlife hybrid listed in the following Appendix:

If at least one specimen in the recent lineage is listed in: Then the specimen is
listed in:
(1) Appendix I Appendix I
(2) Appendix II, and an Appendix-I species is not included in the recent lineage Appendix II
(3) Appendix III, and an Appendix-I or -II species is not included in the recent lineage Appendix III

(d) U.S. application for wildlife hybrid . To apply for a CITES document, complete the appropriate form for the proposed activity (see §§ 23.18 through 23.20) and submit it to the U.S. Management Authority.

(e) Criteria . For export of a hybrid that contains a CITES species in its recent lineage, you must meet the requirements of § 23.36.

(f) Exempt wildlife hybrids . The following provisions apply to import, export, or re-export of exempt wildlife hybrids:

(1) A hybrid between a CITES species and a non-CITES species may be exempt from CITES document requirements if there are no purebred CITES species in the previous four generations of the specimen's ancestry (direct line of descent). Under this section, a hybrid between two CITES species is not exempt.

(2) For import, export, or re-export of an exempt wildlife hybrid without CITES documents, you must provide information at the time of import or export to clearly demonstrate that your specimen has no purebred CITES species in the previous four generations of its ancestry. Although a CITES document is not required, you must follow the clearance requirements for wildlife in part 14 of this subchapter, including the prior notification requirements for live wildlife.
Link

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1.0.0 Cuban/Cayman Hybrid Iguana
0.1.0 Cuban Iguana
1.0.0 Ctenosaura Similis
1.2.0 Mali Uromastyx
1.3.0 Leopard Geckoes
0.0.2 Armadillo Lizards
0.1.0 Bearded Dragon
1.2.0 Angel Island Chuckwallas
0.1.0 Sulcata Tortoises
1.0.0 Western Painted Turtles
0.0.3 Red Eared Sliders

Ok but does this apply to state to state transactions or only to import and export in and out of the country?

I was under the impression that State to State was treated the same as country to country for CITES in the US. I may not be correct on that. This part of the law might only pertain to international transactions. I'm only putting up what I can find hoping someone more knowledgeable can help out.
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1.0.0 Cuban/Cayman Hybrid Iguana
0.1.0 Cuban Iguana
1.0.0 Ctenosaura Similis
1.2.0 Mali Uromastyx
1.3.0 Leopard Geckoes
0.0.2 Armadillo Lizards
0.1.0 Bearded Dragon
1.2.0 Angel Island Chuckwallas
0.1.0 Sulcata Tortoises
1.0.0 Western Painted Turtles
0.0.3 Red Eared Sliders

I've read tons of documentation regarding CITES and the ESA but there is no clear law. I conferring with some well known Cyclura breeders and this has been the case since the creation of the ESA. It is a gray area in the law which is open to interpretation and is dangerous.

Tom was right about CITES and the ESA. CITES is the law for international trade. The ESA is the law for the USA.

Has the ESA changed since its inception in 1973?
What we need is a lawyer. lol

Maybe someone else here can comment further.

Manny,

It is a grey area but very light grey. Over 10 years ago David Blair would not ship hybrids across State lines as he could not get a cleat answer from the feds (big surprise!).

Within the past 10 years he has gotten a letter from the feds stating that it is OK to ship these hybrids across State lines.

There is enough of a precedent now that, in my opinion, you should not worry about shipping these animals.

I've had a few Hybrids shipped to me over the years and there is no law against it. They are Hybrids so there was no problem.