Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Head ornamentation of mexicana-group snakes is always fascinating…lots of wonderfully subtle (or not so) variation to explore.

Cheers,

Bob
SierraHerps.com

Bob,
I too have been fascinated with head ornamentation in thayeri. I also notice that many of your leonis phase lack the 'tri dot' head pattern of many mexicana (Mex mex and thayeri mainly). I do like the 'airbrushed' look as well....Something kinda new to what I used to work with.

Here are a few I produced with nearly absent head pattern....I thought they were cool back then....5 years ago....

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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

Here's a couple traditional head patterns and another with that 'airbrushed' look.....Kinda cool for 2003.......Wish I had not sold lots and lots of them.....

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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

John:

Those are nice...and it is interesting how there are certain recurring patterns that keep cropping up. I'll try to get more up this winter...I am hoping to do something a bit more systematic with recording of head patterns (against a common background, same angle of view, etc.).

Thanks.

Bob
SierraHerps.com

Bob,

Definitely looking forward to seeing this "project"...

Later,
Jim.
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CSRAJim

John,

Can you share whose stock was used to produce animal #2? Just wondering...

Later,
Jim.
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CSRAJim

Sure Jim....
I hatched those out in 2003....The female was an olive colored leonis from MPJ Exotics....They aren't around anymore.....Any way she used to throw melanistics when paired with a certain male MPJ had....I only bought her, but she was my all time prolific breeder female.....

The sire of the clutch was a male orange leonis I got from Kim Cartright (Kims' Kolubrids)....She got him from Tim Gebhart.....

Here is a pic of her from around 2001 or so....
Then a pic of their offspring....
The last pic is her with a VR male in 2004...

I really liked her olive coloration....

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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

John,

Thanks for the information...Any idea about how to contact Kim (Kim's Colubrids)? Butterscotch and Emma have Kim's genetics in them and I would like to contact her if possible...

You can email if you don't wnat to post...

Again, thanks John,
Jim.

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CSRAJim

Jim,

All I had was an email address for her back when she decided to close her business.

That email address no longer works.

Tracing Thayeri bloodlines was not as big a deal as it seems to be now.

I don't see us doing it with Mex Mex, Greeri and Ruthveni.

I do know that Kim got most of her Thayeri from Tim Gebhart.

I wonder where Tim got all his Thayeri....They were certainly not all from the wild.

That one in the pic certainly does look like the ones I used to have from Kim....

Great looking snake and surely pure bloodline Thayeri.
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

John,

Thanks man...Oh well, something will probably turn up later and I'll just keep looking...

"Tracing Thayeri bloodlines was not as big a deal as it seems to be now." I agree and disagree with you here...

On the agree side, yes...It is not a big deal if the breeder that bred the progeny (that you acquired) kept and maintained good records. On the other side, there are those breeders that didn't think keeping and maintaing such records was a big deal and when their memory fades or their hard drive crashes and "POOF"...It's gone.

I guess it depends on how much you consider just what the "big deal" is regarding provenance (bloodlines)...For me it's VERY important and I've spent years attempting to reconstruct bits of the genetic tree puzzle for my animals. To me, it adds to the history of the pioneers (the herpetologists and zoo keepers that wrote about it) that first introduced "thayeri" and the other mexicana's to the US in the first place. In some instances I'm successful and others, I'll just have to wait until later (as in Kim)...But every once in a while you can "connect-the-dots" all the way back to the 1980's (not a subject for discussion)...

On the disagree side, not a big deal? We've talked about the "hybrid/interegrade" issue many, many times here and when when I look at the classifieds...Not a big deal? I'm not trying to start an argument as this is just my opinion...It's a big deal to me for what that's worth...

Later,
Jim.

PS: Any idea about the lineage of this male (Lester) that I acquired from Chris Garcia? He was produced by Serpentdan in 2003 (from a 1998 male x 1995 female) but his "bloodlines" before Serpentdan go way back and I'll leave it at that for the time being...

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CSRAJim

Jim....I too am not arguing...I was just stating that back then it wasn't a big deal as it is now. I think we CERTAINLY should know if the breeders we buy from crossed any species or acquired such mixicana.
Great point. In the 80's (as you mentioned) there was A LOT of cross breeding mexicana.....Some thought they were all one species - 'Mexicana' and their common name was the Variable Kingsnake... this included Thayeri (Nuevo Leon phase MSP and Leonis), Greeri (Durango Mt. phase), Mexmex (San Luis Potosi phase) and Ruthveni (Queretero phase). Some even thought Alterna were these variable kingsnakes.

I just want to know if Tim and others got some Applegate, Garska, Blodie, Kardon, Torres and Vermilya thayeri and crossed them....Line bred them for looks...then deemed them their line?

We too should be able to do so....and of course we should keep records of bloodlines and breeders...But when we say VR....What are they? They are line bred thayeri....At least Tim has re introduced wild bloodlines recently....

>>PS: Any idea about the lineage of this male (Lester) that I acquired from Chris Garcia? He was produced by Serpentdan in 2003 (from a 1998 male x 1995 female) but his "bloodlines" before Serpentdan go way back and I'll leave it at that for the time being...

There may be some Kardon (SA Zoo), Blodie (Dallas Zoo) or Applegate in them, but I cannot tell by looks alone.....What I can tell by looks alone is that it is a thayeri and has not been tainted with any other species' genetics......
Great looking snake you got from Chris by the way....

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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

John,

Agreed on many accounts and well said...Blanchard's 1926 paper discusses this "issue" (as did many others later on) in an attempt to figure out their taxonomic classification that others added to later on (W. R. Garstka's 1982 "Breviora" paper for example)...

You ask some good questions and yes, I know that certain traits were bred for the visual appearance aspect by some folks but for others, that is not the case. And this is where the knowledge of the "chain-of-custody" (i.e. bloodline) is a key (emphasis on 'a'). When we look at acquisition records of say those pioneers with a history of working in a zoo (and worked for herpetologists by the name of Tryon, Murphy, Perkins, Haas, etc) then this is where reasonably accurate records were kept and in some cases, a general vicinity (locale) may or may not have been recorded. Even if there is only a general vicinity (i.e. San Juanito, La Ascencion, La Angostura, Ojo de Agua, etc) that is clarified later on...This is a starting point in the sense that it narrows things down from say Mexico to the State of Nuevo Leon to a "vicinity" of say 80-100 kilometers square. Another consideration is that some animals were collected by the locals (on foot) or by the pioneers themselves road cruising (I know - no GPS) or walking the ground flipping rocks and it is possible to maybe narrow the focus even further. Now throw in 1:2:1 genetics and it is possible to see (even today), examples of old phenotypes (i.e. double split saddles). This ain't perfect but, it just adds to my interest of the animals in my collection...

Another consideration is...What if one of the heads of one of your neonates that pips out of an egg is an albino thayeri? Now what? With the hybrid/intergrade "issue" that is an ongoing discussion...Without provenance records...Now what?

So, the bottom line is the "eye of the keeper" and their intent on the their breeding projects based on their experience and "vision" of what they are trying to do...Yes, I know that this is pie in the sky stuff so I'll end it here...

Later,
Jim.
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CSRAJim

Great post Jim.....
I detect the passion you have for your animals... And that is great.

Also....I have always said the exact same thing about the next amel thayeri (I say next because I believe one amel was the real deal)......No one will believe it is the 'real thing' unless everyone in the long line of breeders were truthful.

So....What is the lineage of "Lester?"
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

John,

Thanks man...Check your email and that's all I'll say about it here or anyplace else...Sorry man.

Later,
Jim.
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CSRAJim

This is a great study, i have personally always been fascinated with head patterns. It is kind of like their thumb print. Great shots too btw.
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Michelle
All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful:
The Lord God made them all.

Bob,

Exquisite close-up photos!!! Thanks...

Those four specimens look like they have a Vivd and Serpentdan influence with just a touch of genetics from some others...

Later,
Jim.
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CSRAJim

Jim:

Thanks...you have a good eye. Top 3 are Vivid (or VR line), last is Vermilya.

Bob
SierraHerps.com

Bob,

Thanks but your "eye" is better...

Later,
Jim.
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CSRAJim

I used identify the offspring by their head pattern...Kinda like when "sharktooth" came around....I had a few that had unique looking head patterns as well as nuchal patterns.....

Here is Smiley Face

Here is Skull Head

Here is Pac Man Ghost

And Cupid

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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

John,

Very nice indeed...Mine just have ID#'s...

Later,
Jim.
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CSRAJim

smiley face and pacman ghost are cute but the skull head mark looks kinda like a pug face to me with its pushed in nose.... i like head patterns too
~kin
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~Sober Serpents~
www.freewebs.com/soberserpents
Corns, Creamsicles, A Black Rat, A pair of Leucistic Black Rat X Leucistic Texas Rat Intergrades, Thayeri, Cal Kings, A Jungle Corn, Ball Pythons, Leopard Geckos, Green Anoles, 2 Snapping Turtles, an Eastern Box Turtle, a Bearded Dragon, an Adult Rescue Iguana, and A Baby Iguana

I called this one BUNNYHEAD

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Jonel M. Lopez

www.spsnakes.com

I used to call this one Donkey Ears....

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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

This snake contains high levels of radiation, hehe

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Jonel M. Lopez

www.spsnakes.com

Very good Jonel. Sera ulo! Lol.
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Jerry Kruse

"Luck favors the prepared." -- Edna Mode

Takes one to know one bud, hehe
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Jonel M. Lopez

www.spsnakes.com

My photos are no comparison to most of yours but the head patterns are what we are looking at right? I too have notice over the years some recurring themes with the head patterns. Leonis phase – single shield, tri-shield, most of the head, and no (faint) pattern. Milksnake Phase, increased mask over eyes, more color in head pattern, and I have never had a Milksnake phase without a head pattern.

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Rick

Rick:

Those are good observations. Thanks.

Bob

SierraHerps.com

Nice stuff as always Bob. Here are a few of the variations in my collection.

Black Widow:

Club:

Lots of black:

No black:

Lots of red:

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Ophidiarium Charieis

Meant to post this one in the above message.

An asymmetrical head pattern.

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Ophidiarium Charieis

Great stuff Bob and all! Fun thread, Ryan the assymetrical one is cool! Here's one I liked from this years' Fred and Wilma clutch, Flash. I see lightning bolts, lol!

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Todd Hughes