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OK, I'm so fed up with seeing and hearing names like "true" ghosts and "true" snows. ONE morph combo is not a "true" something while a second one is a "false?" something. It can't be. People really need to THINK about the implications of their words, I think, before using them as some sort of self-convinced "fact."

It is true that the first "snow" (which was a cornsnake) was an albino anerythristic, but we have LOTS of "snows" that are not such a combo. Cal-Kings are the perfect example: a snow cal-king is an albino melanistic. "Snow" has no genetic meaning - it is just a term thrown around and means nothing visually other than a white snake with red eyes and various amounts of yellow. "Snows" can't be true or not true. You can have a true albino or not (ability to make no melanin can be tested, and THAT fits the definition of albinism), but how can you have a "true" snow when that term has no genetic meaning? A true snow, to me, is nothing more than whatever morph is first called by that name by the creator - that sticks in the hobby. The first! Giving another morph the same name is confusion. I don't care if it helps market a snake or gives is an increased sense of false market value. The habit of giving two morphs the same name is confusing and irresponsible.

Take the histoy of snow bullsnakes. White-sided was once believed to be anerythristic (it isn't - but that doesn't matter). The first albino white-sided was called a snow. Right or wrong, the name stuck. It is entrenched in our hobby now, and it will never go away. Albino axanthics have been produced for a number of years. Some are starting to call them lavender snows (great idea, Jason!), but some still call them "true" snows. The idea that they are more true than the snakes we currently call a snow (even if you ignore the confusion those people are spawning) is ludicrous to me. The name is taken - don't try to steal it away like a thief in the night. Please. Wanna see what name stealing can do? Search out what happened with the name "granite" in cornsnakes!

NOW, we have 2 different nonallelic strains of amelanism. We have two different strains of axanthism that may not be allelic. Assume for the second that they are not. That gives us FOUR possible combinations that would produce an albino axanthic bullsnake. Which one is TRUE? Which three are false or are they just psuedo-true? If one is a TRUE SNOW, which three are NOT - and why? Some people have told me the FIRST one made is the TRUE snow (that means the TRUE snow and TRUE ghost would be a Lubbock albino / Ballam axanthic and Colorado hypo / Ballam axanthic), but that just means that the albino whitesided should be the true snow because it was first to hold that name......lol. Obviously, calling all four true snows would mean there would be 16 different combos of breeding a snow to a snow (ignoring the albino white-sided "snow", and only 12 of them would produce snows in the resulting ofspring. Wanna play those odds? I don't.

So, I ask you - if there is such a thing as a "true snow (or true ghost - the same thing applies), which of the four combos is TRUE and what makes the other three NOT true? It is a simple question. Is there a simple answer?
KJ
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KJUN Snakehaven
Pituophis.net

>>Obviously, calling all four true snows would mean there would be 16 different combos of breeding a snow to a snow (ignoring the albino white-sided "snow", and only 12 of them would produce snows in the resulting ofspring. Wanna play those odds? I don't.

TYPO - that should read "only 4 of the 16 pairings would produce snows. 12 would NOT produce snows."
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KJUN Snakehaven
Pituophis.net

It needs a name, plain and simple.
This is not a White Sided Hypo is it? That is what people refer to as Ghosts, you know this.
So what now? Should we STEAL the name Ghost?
This is a simple solution. This snake is Hypo and Axanthic, so it is a Ghost.
Should we call them Envy Ghosts or Nokturnel Ghosts? You'd complain about that too.
I am also fed up with this but I am not going to carry on about it.
The snake is a Ghost, and the name Ghost is taken. So seeing the original Ghost is a White Sided Hypo and this snake is a Ghost most people think True Ghost is appropriate.
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

>>It needs a name, plain and simple.
>>This is not a White Sided Hypo is it? That is what people refer to as Ghosts, you know this.

That's the problem right there, why do they call them ghosts instead of hypo white side?

I say steal the name back if it is more accurate for your application, make the "false" names adjust.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

This hobby is used to seeing the White Sided trait now. I do not think many would have a problem with calling the old Ghosts White Sided Hypos now, doesn't seem too much to ask.
In my opinion the old ones are "false" Ghosts.
I understand there may be more Ghost variants to come from other mixing and matching and then whoever wants too can chose another Ghostly name.
For the record I did not chose this name, this particular combo was something some of us saw soming and when it arrived we had already been calling this snake a True Ghost.
Like the old name "stuck", the name True Ghost was stuck on some of us before the snake was ever even produced.
This name implies nothing but the truth, in my opinion this is a True Ghost.
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

So, you are calling all 4 combos true ghosts and all 4 combos true snows? Didn't you say it NEEDED a name? Well, why do you can ONE combo a true and not all four - or do you say THESE don't need unique names?

You say "hypo white-sided" is good enough. Why isn't "Hypo axanthic" good enough? What's good for the goose....lol.
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KJUN Snakehaven
Pituophis.net

I said it! It IS!
Did you see Blazing Saddles?
Its TWU! It's TWU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Go ahead make up a name to make up for someone elses unintentional misnomer made a decade ago. Pick on MINE.

True Ghost is as good as any name, I like it....it's my snake....it's a Ghost...it's true....end of story
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Well?
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KJUN Snakehaven
Pituophis.net

i agree 100%..its a matter of symantics and there can always be contraversy there, if someone wants contraversy

Did I accidentally log onto the cornsnake page? These are pits for god sake, stop all this nonsense!

well said.
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Matt Kauffman

At least the cornsnake guys understand basic Mendelian genetics.......lol.
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KJUN Snakehaven
Pituophis.net

Well most of them anyway.
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South Texas Herps

right on

I'm sure that I'm in the minority here, but I much prefer the genetic or generic definitions of the traits. Super ghost ivory carmel creamscicle means nothing to me. Axanthic whiteside does.

Ditto to that, get rid of all the trade names, ghost, true ghost, snow, true snow, salt and pepper, albino, excreta. Just call them exactly what they are and clear it all up. I wish people would do the same in freakin corns as well.
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South Texas Herps

There are certain aspects of our hobby/industry that are unregulated such as pricing and the naming of morphs, etc. I have said for years that a board of members made up of experienced breeders knowledgeable about genetics should should be appointed to correctly identify and name new morphs. Just because someone is the first to produce something should not give them the right to mis-name it. No one likes the word "Regulation" but sometimes regulation can be extremely benneficial. Rusty

a true ghost is a hypo axanthic.

>Take the histoy of snow bullsnakes. White-sided was once believed to be anerythristic (it isn't - but that doesn't matter).
>>> yes it most certainly does matter that ws was MISLABELED someone or alot of someones were WRONG as soon as it was discovered to NOT be the case it should have been fixed, but i suppose thats where we are now.

>The first albino white-sided was called a snow. Right or wrong, the name stuck. It is entrenched in our hobby now, and it will never go away.
>>>yes of course it stuck, ghost for all intense purposes is simply a marketing term for a dbl.homo. in all other colubrids its accepted that a ghost is a dbl.homo. hypo axanthic. i for one feel its past time this was fixed,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

>>>>> yes it most certainly does matter that ws was MISLABELED someone or alot of someones were WRONG as soon as it was discovered to NOT be the case it should have been fixed, but i suppose thats where we are now.

Well, gonna change the name of the Cal-King, too? LOL. Here is the deal in my mind - a snow corn was names a snow because it was mostly white. It just happened to be anerythristic/amelanistic. If it was green, they would have called it something else. It was named based on appearance and not genetic make-up, so a snow bull (by any other name) should be a mostly white bull (with red eyes). I would never have called it that, but the name was used. Plus, who says we HAVE to follow convention?

STILL, the major point was ignored. I know that is because many people don't understand the genetics involved, but many people do. The main point is that if a TRUE snow has to be albino and axanthic, WHICH albino and WHICH axanthic combo is "true?" What are the others NOT true? It is the TRUE name I argue. Why is a stillwater-hypo axanthic not true while a Trumbower-hypo axanthic is true? Is one line of axanthism more true than another? It is the word true - not the word ghost - that I feel is wrong.

Take Jason Nelson. He is calling his lavender GHOSTS and LAVENDER snows. Not ghosts and snows. Not implying one combo is true while the others are false. What is wrong with that? Plain old snow and ghost is taken. Confusion will develop if those exact names are used for something else. "True" implies three similar combos are false, and that isn't logical.

Why NOT use terms like lavender for one combo, and other words for the other that DESCRIBE that individual snake? What is the problem with that. If you say lavender snow, one would know the exact genetics you mean. "True snow" means 4 - or 5 - different genetics to people that know what is available to MAKE a "snow." The other three may be "phantom snow" or "Ballam snow" or "Bubba ghost." I don't care.

Everyone says the first ones were misnamed. I do not diagree. Not at all. I just say (1) the name is stuck and shouldn't be stolen and (2) WHICH OF THE $ POSSIBLE "TRUE" SNOWS are TRUE and which ones are somehow not true enough to be called true....and WHY?

I'm sorry if that last question keeps getting ignored by everyone, but if you and I make a "true" ghost using 2 different genetic combinations, which one should be called true? Both should NOT get the same name or that would be completely confusing.
KJ
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KJUN Snakehaven
Pituophis.net

STILL, the major point was ignored. I know that is because many people don't understand the genetics involved, but many people do. The main point is that if a TRUE snow has to be albino and axanthic, WHICH albino and WHICH axanthic combo is "true?" What are the others NOT true? It is the TRUE name I argue. Why is a stillwater-hypo axanthic not true while a Trumbower-hypo axanthic is true? Is one line of axanthism more true than another? It is the word true - not the word ghost - that I feel is wrong.

i understand it completely i think most do except you?, a mistake was made.
a true snow is albino axanthic being there are 2 diff. types of amel and axanthic the diff types of snows should be labeled type 1,type 2 etc with an explanation of which types of amel&axan were used simple.
in the case of the true ghost that is exactly what it is a hypo axanthic an albino whiteside is not a ghost simple its an albino whiteside that until now was wrongly named and marketed. need a catchy name then think of one but ghost surely doesnt apply being that the ghost name was improperly used to begin with. and there is indeed a true ghost now imho its the amelws that needs to change its handle. as to the snow calkings yes they are imho also wrongly named, marketing gone crazy!,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

I dont have a problem with calling them True Ghost seeing the genetic make up of the animal. I agree that there is problems that come with name. Like you point out KJ they are several ways to make a ghost and that can be a big problem.

One way to end some confusion is add apprenthsis after name that includes the genetics. For example Ghost(Hypo, Axanthic) but then the next problem what Hypo and Axanthic Bloodlines were used?

Its going to be confusing with all these recessive genes out there. There is going to be around 2 to 5 different ghost Bulls out there and many more if anery gene comes into play. Blizzard Bulls, White with no pattern looking animals. There is going to be a bunch of Blizzard looking animals with different genetic make up when all is said and done. Its going to be messy if people dont do some research and documentation.
I can see people breeding Blizzard to Blizzard and only producing whitesided or amels and not more blizzards!

Jason

I've seen blizzards used to describe albino axanthic speckleds and albino white-sided speckleds. I guess THAT name is already confused.......lol. Of course, I doubt you can really tell those two combinations apart visually (in most cases) without breeding trails. What is coming is the following post: "I bred a blizzard bulls from Joe and a blizzard bull from Bob together, and all I got were albino speckleds. I've got a new morph!"

I'm laughing, but it is true. Wait. Can I say that word? Is it not true since I'm not an albino? As a mammal, I am axanthic (no jaundice here!), but my sides are white. I'm so confused.......lol.
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KJUN Snakehaven
Pituophis.net