Reptile & Amphibian Forums

"Of course if you have dehydration problems, they must get larger with more mass to avoid becoming dehydrated.

In nature the first task of all individual snakes is to maintain hydration. In captivity its a constant problem, and most likely 99% of all captive snakes are in some stage of dehydration.

If your interested you can ask more about this, there is an easy way to test it. Cheers"

No need to be nice about it. Lets hear it!

"In captivity its a constant problem, and most likely 99% of all captive snakes are in some stage of dehydration."

I don't mean to be flip but that is like saying that life is a terminal condition. Its so general its both completely true and meaningless at the same time.
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Darwin Rocks!

Why should I, you have Tony D and friends that can explain it so beautifully. Like he just did.

As far as I can tell, he said, its normal to dehydrate them as they are going to die anyway. How very sad and good reason we do not get along.

Its not normal in nature. They are always in a mode of maintaining hydration and they normally achieve that, OR DIE. You see the dying part is normal but should be avoided. And they try to avoid it.

In captivity, they are not allowed to make the right choices and are forced to become dehydrated. Sometimes to lethal levels, sometimes to chronic levels.

The test is very easy, do not water them, if they fail,(stop eating, bad sheds, etc) there cage is substandard. You do not have to wait until they are dead.

In nature, they have no need to drink water(normally). of course there are limits and conditions.

Say, if they do not show signs of dehydration for two months, that would be good. Try this with baby snakes and see what happens.

I will post some pics of two month old baby kings I am raising that are kept together and never givin water(yet) They are also fed together. So far, so good. I am also keeping a couple of more kings in a cage that if I do not keep water in with them, they stop feeding. Hmmmmmmmmm An additional test would be to wait 6 months then switch cages and see what happens. Cheers

Frank, reptiles must get water somewhere, i.e. humid conditions/burrows, surface water, food items, dew off scales ,etc. If a snake has water available in a bowl at all times, would having dry conditions be undesireable?

I have Indigos, and they spend a lot of time in humid, moss filled boxes,year around, but also have multiple sources of water available. Would there be anything wrong with providing a damp box for kingsnakes, similar to what most folks use for egg laying? I am told kings often get blisters and bad skin, even in the wild, if too damp. I am thinking humidity may be a critical factor in avoiding water dehydration...but keepers are afraid of too damp conditions=skin issues. I agree completely with your "give them choices" goals. Would a damp moss filled box help solve the hydration issue in the long term?

Most here and it appears you, want to keep putting a bandaid on a cut, so it would stop bleeding. Isn't it much better to not have the cut in the first place. That means do not dehydrate them in the first place.

Yes, snakes seek neutral conditions, that is, conditions that are not moist(too wet) or too dry, conditions that keep them from dehydrating, while not being wet.

If they become dehydrated, whether in nature or captivity, they then seek methods to gain moisture. That is normally through their prey. But can include other methods, like drinking water or soaking in water.

What snakes do to control their moisture is avoid drying conditions, like open dry air. Of course if moisture is plentiful, they will expose themselves to dry air. But once they cannot access moisture, they then move to conditions that do not allow dehydration.

In captivity, we provide negative drying conditions and fix it by giving them drinking water. So they drink it, soak in it and deficate in it. In worse cases, they will lay their eggs in it. Which is something they do not do in nature.

There are indeed longterm chronic problems with constant dehydration.

To me, its easy, do not let them get dehydrated, easy enough, then you can avoid all the rest. For some reason some folks here, go by a system, and do not attend to the animals. That is, so and so, does this, so i will too. Problem is, they are not so and so. Their conditions are not the same. So the animals suffer. Sorry for being my normal blunt, but just read these posts and see for yourself. Cheers

Take out the water? That is some drastic, but simple test! I need to think on that one.

I have been putting humid hides in all my snakes, kings, milks, hogs, Greybands, BPs, for the past couple of years, and it makes a huge difference. I use dirt with a little coconut husk or potting soil mixed in. They spend a lot of time in there, and that says a lot. With this years hatchlings, same thing. They doing everything better, including feeding. Even baby pyros started on thawed pinks no problem. They do not like to be wet, but they need humid air. After all, they spend most of their time underground. I have been in the field since I was a kid, a long time, and I never found a snake on aspen bedding.

Bill Cobb

That is the trick. Baby kings need moisture. Montane kings feed much better when they can maintain a water balance. Even arid snakes like graybands do so much better when tended to in that way.

Adult snakes seem to handle dry conditions better, due to more mass, thicker skin. But babies, no.

So you have found part of the secret to getting the best feeding response you can from baby pyros and graybands and such.
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Mark

"So you have found part of the secret to getting the best feeding response you can from baby pyros and graybands and such.
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Mark"

Do you have any more secrets to share?

Lol, if I did have more tricks I sure would share.

Actually there is one, and I do not really know if it helps any more than any other hide, but here goes.. 1 inch dia PVC pipe. Baby snakes love to hide in a piece of PVC pipe, and they love to eat in there too. Mine shun all other hides by far most of the time to coil up and wedge themselves in the pipe. And they will take a thawed pink stuffed in the pipe.
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Mark

I missed alot of something

..water bowl.....needed...must be changed frequently so they can smell it...they are stupid and I have seen them crawl right through water bowls and not drink...yet put in fresh water and shove their head in it and they drink like they are dying..??...

...moist hides....welcome by almost all snakes

...I have friends that forget to water snakes and stuff for week (s ) at a time ....they get bored with snakes...pain....they also buy new snakes alot....snakes die without water...seen it many times....

I never actually knew a snake could keep watered / hydrated by laying IN the water....frogs suck water into their rear orafice but I don't know about snakes....guess I could set in the bathtub for a few days and not drink and see what happens???....

it takes water to digest food......

I get dehydrated for short time periods almost everyday at work......life goes alot better with water every few hours....mind and body really work so much smoother for me....

....never had a snake lay their whole clutch in the water bowl....thoooousands of eggs....

I have used moist hides with alot of species...not all use them the same way.....and I get sick of them defecating in them after awhile and they end up gowing in the trash again for awhile......temporalis....the Ocean county NJ will lay on top of the moss alot more than under it...yet the St Mary's county Md will go all the way into the moss to the bottom usually....(they cruise for food alot too not just lay in the hides)...

.....guess I'll try and find what started the no water thought?
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......

They need water to digest their meals! There is no way captive conditions can fully mimic their habitat so why try? Given less than adaquate conditions for days a snake can thermoregulate at extreme temps to kill off developing bacteria without cooking itself under a 100 degree piece of tin!
I think the more realistic goal is to "train" and develop strains of snakes that can be managed by people not the other way around. These are domestic animals after all. Providing a moist hide is a benefit to some species for the same reason prozac or ritalin is a benefit to some people.....it makes them more "normal" in a society. Some species are hard wired to be more naturally aggressive, or more naturally flighty. As we get further generations into captive breeding some may decide to breed for disposition over looks......but I am not holding my breath.

Go by a system? I am trying to find a solution for a problem. I am trying to figure what the system is...I raise tortoises too, and I do provide humid hides for them. I think that is what I may do for my kingsnakes as well. My concern was too much dampness being a problem as so much literature indicates. Maybe a piece of plastic pipe with a sponge in the end, damp, for neonates. Or the moss box like I use with success on Indigos for larger ones. I will try it...

I have to agree with FR -

There is a difference between humid and wet.
Snakes that have access to humidity do not get blisters.
Snakes that are kept in wet conditions get blisters.

No - I've not mastered the humid but not wet technique, I do not think it is possible in the shoebox enclosures that I use for baby snakes. I also don't think it is possible with aspen shavings for bedding, I think another type of bedding may be required to properly achieve it.

I don't think that snakes that are kept on aspen with a water dish are necessarily dehydrated though. I think snakes are adaptive and many do just splendidly on aspen with a water bowl.

I think it may depend upon the individual snake.

The male het PB that I got from Tom last year - he ate after arriving and then initially failed to thrive, refusing every meal after. Something was different in how I kept him, but then suddenly he went on feeding frenzy and grew faster than any other snake I have ever owned.

The female axanthic I got from Tom this year - kept identically and has been an excellent feeder from the time she arrived.

Both are florida kings, kept in 4qt shoebox with 3" flexwatt bottom heat - yet one was initially much pickier than the other.

I think FRs methods may be superior in that you don't have to deal with a snake that decided is does not like the conditions it is forced to live in, but I also think that snakes are adaptive enough that they can be both healthy and properly hydrated when kept the way most of us keep them. At least most specimens can.
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Arrrggg!
It's like Shalom, but for pirates.
- iCarly

First, its not about FR's methods, its about the snakes requirements. All I am doing is realizing the snakes requirements and abilities.

Then I try to give them what they know how to do. Not what I think they do. That is a big difference between my "methods" and many others methods. You folks tend to think its about me or my knowledge, but I avoid me and make it about the snakes knowledge and needs. I turn over the real decisions to the animals. I do not think I am so good that I know how to make them. I could, I could do as good as most of you. But there is no sense in that. The snakes are the real experts and they know their needs better then I know their needs.

Examples, I can support snakes breeding often and growing fast, and multiclutching, successfully reproducing at very small sizes, Then successfully growing up. I can keep them in groups and feed them in groups and have do so for decades. And you do not think there is a reason for those results?????????? Its simple, I leave it up to them to decide those things. Then I support them. I did not know I was suppose to make their life decisions and not support them, just because I can.

My methods are simple, If I can give them a choice and its easy to do, I see no reason to not give them a choice.

If you read these posts, you see all manner of rationalizations. Most based on exactly what I am talking about. Shoeboxes, aspen, water bowls, mositure box, etc. The truth is, all those things are merely things, wood plastic, etc, THEY have nothing to do with the snakes or their requirements.

There is no requirement that says you MUST KEEP SNAKES IN SHOEBOXES. We do so because they are cheap and easy, NOT because they are good for snakes or snakes pick them to live in. We put them in those things because of US.

Most put them in those things because someone else did so. Not even because of that person. Because of other people. Its not about the snakes.

You live in an area with kings, do you see water bowls where they live. Do you see water they can drink???? how often, a few times a year when it rains. Do you see them all rushing out to drink the rain water, or do you see them coming out because its humid and they can then risk moving in normally negative conditions.

Yes, they(the average king) does not have drinking water for the vast majority of its life. And yes, the vast majority do not have any need to actually drink water. So how do they live????? Better yet, how come yours cannot live without drinking water? THese are my questions to you. The key here is, why can't yours(most here) live without water bowls, when the vast majority of wild kings do not have water bowls?

Theres the point and wheres your answer? remember, its merely discussion. I have a point and I have captive examples that do thrive without drinking water. Which does not mean you should not give them water, most of my snakes do get water, just not very often, they do not need it. So why do you make them NEED it???? again my question to you all.

Are you getting this, if you have to water them everyday, your keeping them in UNNATURAL CONDITIONS. Why?

ALso its not about duplicating nature, it is about attending to their biological needs.

Its posted on this thread that we should make them adapt to our poor conditions. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm And do so because we can force them too. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm how narsisstic of us. I thought we like snakes because of what they are. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm I could be wrong hey! maybe we like them because we can control them and force them to fit US(narsisistic) I know, I cannot spell worth dog poo. Just some thoughts. Cheers

many snakes have access to water that we don't see. I know you know that, but I thought I'd point it out. Alterna are an example. Underground in the karst region of west Texas there is plenty of water, and that is where alterna have access to constant temps and humidity. Getula in San Antonio are another example, they are found almost exclusively around creeks. Sure you find an oddball away from that environment, but if you want to find them reliably, you better have a creek nearby.

You were right to point out that it's not about you, but more about where you live, what you keep, how you keep it, that is why there is a different set of variables and requirements for each scenario.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Ground water, or ground humidity, what is needed?

>>Ground water, or ground humidity, what is needed?

You know what humidity is right? You need water to have humidity.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Hi Joe, my question stays, as there is a huge difference between humidity and water.

The question and the test is, what do they seek first, the water or the humidity. This is both about captives and wild snakes.

This is also a loaded question as if they are dehydrated, they seek water, if they are not, they seek humidity. If they are overheated, they seek water, if not they do not have a need for water.

When I say they, that includes the average individual living in the conditions in was adapted for. Not individuals that were dehydrated for whatever reason.

A question, I have found kingsnakes in nature drinking water. The question is, what percentage was that? In my own experience that was less then .01% of kings encountered. This includes all kings in all areas. I would be easy to go out after rains and find them drinking water, that is, if they actually sought that out. But the reality is, its rare. Rare can mean, not normal. Cheers

Frank,
Yeah, I don't know. There are places and times you can witness these events if you want. Black Gap historically was a great place to do that. Prior to the last ten years Black Gap was dry as toast. After rains snakes would come out and drink and soak in the puddles on the road. More rains means more opportunity to do so and less chance of observing that behavior. It's a little like finding snakes in the fall. They have shorter suitable activity periods.

A while back Alan Tennant sent us a series from Terlingua Ranch during a drought. An alterna found water on the steps leading to the front porch of a residence and drank and drank totally ignoring the dude with the camera. You can see four of those photos at this url www.kingsnake.com/alterna/insitu/.

A lot of folks used to say you don't find alterna out in the rain, or if you do it's only in the western counties. But now we know it has everything to do with everything else going on with that habitat (temps, rain, drought, humidity, etc, etc.).

We used to catch snakes on the Juno road twice in the same evening, commonly! We'd catch them going to towards the river from the bluffs early, then later returning to the bluffs. I guessing to drink and to forage for food. Some of those snakes returned with a meal bolus and some didn't.

We know humitidy is critical, even for arid species, even if it is from water vapor in the air, but I don't think you can really separate humidity from water, it's the same thing with a different vehicle.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Thank you Joe!
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Darwin Rocks!

You can Joe, and your missing it, They seek humidity, at all times and water for extreme need. As in droughts. Again both in captivity and in nature.

Again, its easy to test. Cheers

good reading on this.....more!!!
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Jerry Kruse

"Luck favors the prepared." -- Edna Mode

I agree that if you keep them on moist enough substrate with a moister hide and give them moist air to breath that it will make them dehydrate less...and keep them better....YES....you are correct....

(I didn't read this new stuff...just got back from another crappy snake show that totally sucks...tired...)

......you say they don't have water?......maybe in some places....but in most of the US they can drink almost everyday one way or another...there is dew on almost everything at least half the days...creeks,streams and water sources are where you find almost all snakes.......

desert snakes....well.......they might not have water and you would be correct......but they have to get used to that condition...........just like hamsters don't need water bottles...they can live with potatoe and other veggies for water....but they have to adapt to it......

.......for most dumb people with dumb captive snakes...in dry cages......make them use a water bowl........

......and tell them not to use heat lamps........

.......
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First, its not about FR's methods, its about the snakes requirements

They do not require the humid conditions - as generations upon generations of kings have been raised in shoeboxes with aspen bedding and a water dish and have been quite healthy.

There may be specimens that are pickier than others, and there are (at least) two schools of thought on them:

1) Provide them with their individual needs

2) Remove them from the gene pool

There is a lot of merit to the second thought. If you are breeding for the captive pet trade, you should make an effort to produce young that thrive under typical captive conditions. Unless it has a very redeeming quality, the young that are more difficult to keep and properly start should probably not be bred as adults.

It's the same thing with my rats - one of my females is from a pet line, one is from a feeder line. Both were tame. The one from a feeder line however became aggressive when she had young and has bitten me several times. She gets to have one more litter while I raise her replacement, but she's going to be snake food because I do not want female rats that bite when they have babies (now that her litter is weened, she's stopped biting again).

Anyway - reproducing natural conditions as close as you can is great when you can, but > 95% of the keepers out there aren't going to do it - and we know kings can be successfully raised and live healthy lives with aspen and a water dish and no access to a humidity chamber of any kind.

A pyro breeder I know in Colorado has kept records and found that when he started, most of the pyro pyro hatchlings he produced required lizard scenting. He primarily selected the pyros that did not require lizard scenting as his holdbacks for breeding evaluation, and now, most of the pyros he hatches take f/t pinks out of the egg.

Clearly our captive lines do drift via selective breeding, and natural enclosures are very nice to set up, but most Lampros will thrive in sterilite - even though they would never choose to live in sterilite in the wild.

Most snakes die in the wild before their first year, do they not? Given how many eggs are in a clutch, the wild survival rate must not be that high. They need to be pickier to increase their survival chances, but they also can survive in a fairly wide variety of conditions.
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Arrrggg!
It's like Shalom, but for pirates.
- iCarly

How does one determine and provide the perfect amount of humidity for each individual snake and fluctuate that humidity in perfect time with the snake's needs? How does one know if his snakes are dehydrated (or if conditions are too moist) if no visible symptoms have presented and the snake is eating/behaving normally?
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1.1.0 Hondurans Het Amel
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You do what the majority of successful keepers do. You do not have excessively humid conditions, you do not attempt to mimic nature, you do provide fresh clean water at all times, you stop worrying about wild snakes and their requirements in nature. Wild snakes usually die well before they get to adulthood. They dehydrate and die. They get too wet and die. They get too hot, too cold, eat too much, eat too little- and they die. Captive produced snakes have a much better chance of surviving given the standard optimum accepted captive conditions we are all most familiar with. This thread is stupid.

" This thread is stupid. "

You are so right!
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Genesis 1:1

I tend to agree. This thread, like so many others has wandered off track. I AM curious to see how (or if) Frank will answer my question.
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1.1.0 Hondurans Het Amel
1.1.0 Hondurans Anery, Het Hypo
0.1.0 Honduran Hypo
0.1.0 Honduran Hypo, Het Anery
0.2.0 Pueblans
1.0.0 Pueblan Hypo
1.0.0 Thayeri MSP
0.0.1 GBK Blair's Phase
1.0.0 California King
0.1.0 California King Blue-eyed Blond
0.0.1 Speckled King WC
0.0.1 Jungle Carpet
0.1.0 Ball, Normal
1.0.0 San Diego Gopher, Poss. Het Applegate
0.0.1 Sulcata
0.1.0 Girlfriend, Caucasius Mexicana, Fiancee Phase

http://www.cafepress.com/shedz

If you didn't remove the water bowl in the first place you have no problem and need no solution.
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Darwin Rocks!

"As far as I can tell, he said, its normal to dehydrate them as they are going to die anyway."

Will the real Carl Rove please stand up!
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Darwin Rocks!

It amazes me that every so often someone will still direct a question at you when you give responses like this one. The more I see posts like this from you I have to think you just like to stir the pot to amuse yourself.
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Randy Whittington

I'm just happy to be here.

"The test is very easy, do not water them, if they fail,(stop eating, bad sheds, etc) there cage is substandard. You do not have to wait until they are dead.

In nature, they have no need to drink water(normally). of course there are limits and conditions. "

Frank, your logic in the above statement is a bit faulty. I'm not saying you are incorrect about whether or not snakes need to drink to remain hydrated. What I am saying is that the test you're suggesting will only prove that removing the snake's water supply in captivity DOES cause dehydration. Do you see my point?

If you wanted to test this scientifically, it would be better to test a group of snakes in a variety of cage setups. You should set up two of each type of cage with water in each. After recording the snakes behavior, feeding, shedding, health, weight, etc. for several months, remove the water from one of each type of cage. If your theory is correct, some of the snakes in the cage setups without water should remain healthy (the cages with proper humidity levels) and some should show signs of dehydration (the ones without proper humidity).

Again, I'm not arguing that you are wrong in your beliefs about humidity, but I think your suggested test is whack.

It DOES seem to me and, I'm sure, to others here that your observations may be leading you to make very broad assumptions. I understand you have huge amounts of field experience in the American southwest and have undoubtedly observed behavior supporting your beliefs. But some of us have our own observations and it's only fair to take those into account. I grew up in southern Louisiana where the humidity is ridiculously high inside and outside almost year round. The snakes there do soak and drink and I've come across snakes in the wild drinking.
Perhaps we might find that snakes from drier areas do not need to drink under most circumstances because their physiology is better adapted to these conditions than snakes from more humid areas. It's a thought.

In my own collection I seldom see my snakes drinking and I tend to think that you may be at least partially correct. It would seem that they remain hydrated well enough by the humidity in their cages and the water in their food that they have little or no need to drink. Still, I keep water bowls available at all times and I think it would be foolish and irresponsible to do otherwise.
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1.1.0 Hondurans Het Amel
1.1.0 Hondurans Anery, Het Hypo
0.1.0 Honduran Hypo
0.1.0 Honduran Hypo, Het Anery
0.2.0 Pueblans
1.0.0 Pueblan Hypo
1.0.0 Thayeri MSP
0.0.1 GBK Blair's Phase
1.0.0 California King
0.1.0 California King Blue-eyed Blond
0.0.1 Speckled King WC
0.0.1 Jungle Carpet
0.1.0 Ball, Normal
1.0.0 San Diego Gopher, Poss. Het Applegate
0.0.1 Sulcata
0.1.0 Girlfriend, Caucasius Mexicana, Fiancee Phase

http://www.cafepress.com/shedz

if you condition a snake from the time of hatching to a constant water supply, then take it away it will/may have adverse consequences. however, i believe what frank is saying is that from the time of hatching, if a snake is not offered water then it can be conditioned to survive/thrive provided it has proper humidity requirements and is adequately fed. it will receive its moistue internally by way of its prey animals. after all, what are animals made of? mostly moisture. i believe franks method of teaching is to provide enough information to provoke thought and insight. he wants to lead you in the right direction, not show you the way. if i am wrong, feel free to correct me frank. i feel i have learned a lot from franks posts over the years. i for one am going to give the no water technique a try with one or two desert ratsnakes that i will be hatching soon. regards, rusty