Reptile & Amphibian Forums

FR QUOTE
"They (snakes) seek humidity, at all times and water for extreme need."

Ridiculous! Here is how it actually breaks down:

They (snakes) constantly seek to maintain adequate levels of hydrations at all times by looking to minimize and make up water loss. In short, they drink to make up loss and they seek humid conditions to lessen loss.

During droughts, the availability of liquid water is less, not more and snakes don't further expose themselves to desiccation by going looking for it. Instead their strategy becomes more weighted towards loss prevention. They seek a humid hide and they hunker down. The reason is two fold. First they are preserving precious stores of moisture and second the last moist locations will be among the first places where rainfall will collect. Ever see someone open a cage where the water bowl has been allowed to evaporate? Where is the snake? Often its curled up in the bowl because it knows that is where water collects!

Many forms have evolved and adapted to habitats where this survival strategy is the norm. Some may even have specific physiological and behavior adaptations such that they do better under these conditions. Such animals, when kept in captivity, may indeed do better if maintained as FR suggests. I can not stress strongly enough that these extreme examples do not indicate that snakes, in general, do not require or utilize drinking water on a routine basis.

FR is further correct that there is a big difference between moisture and humidity. Snakes can withstand high humidity but suffer from constant moisture or wetness. The thing to remember about humidity is that it is temperature dependent. When water vapor towards the warmer side of your cage's temperature gradient gets too high it will reach its dew point and condense to moisture at the cooler end. This situation is non favorable to the health of captive maintained reptiles.

Yes you want to maintain a level of humidity in your enclosures but you don't want it to be too high either. Condensation at the cool side is a great indicator of too much water (any form) in the cage. If you note this you either need to decrease the size of the water bowl (reducing surface area and evaporation) or increase ventilation to prevent excessive build up of water vapor inside the cage. Likewise if you are providing a snake with a water bowl and are having ROUTINE problems with difficult sheds you may want to look at increasing the size of the bowl or decreasing ventilation.

Thousands of keepers have had great success balancing the use water bowls and ventilation to maintain their animals at proper levels of hydration. IMHO it is needlessly reckless to experiment on your animals to support a half-baked hypothesis that snakes only drink under conditions of extreme need as has been suggested here.
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Darwin Rocks!

Logical and well thought out as always. It is good to have a voice of reason on this forum. Too bad it is counterbalanced by the voices of inanity and superfluous hyperbole we see too often, fortunately by only the few. By the way,while out in the field I have seen, and not uncommonly, snakes stopping to take a drink, (for what that is worth).

"As they say in the sewer, here's mud in your eye."-Ed Norton

Oh man all this talk on water and hydration. Here is the south where I live in georgia it is very humid. It is so humid that pine shaving start to rot and mold after a few days and need to constantly be changed. Which is a bigger problem because i am alway fighting humidity. That is why rosy boas don't do well here. They can't even drink before of after a meal and they want it very dry in the cages. That is why rosy guys use open top scree tanks rather than rack systems (TO FIGHT THE HUMIDITY).

SO DIFFERENT STROKES FOR DIFFERENT SNAKES.

The best method i learned from Llyoyd Lemke about 25 years ago was put the water dishes in one day and remove the next. Water was only offered onece a week to all the snakes and then the dishes sterilized. I think the main reason Lloyd did it that way because of tranferable falggelates and parasites that come from water dishes left in a cage for to many days (especially in a humid cage). I prefer this method even though the majority of my collection of Florida kings are more forgiving than other spp.when it comes to being to humid and the shavings get to sour. However Florida king Neonates absolutly need to have more moisture or they can dehydrate in as little as 3 days. But when they start eating small mice they all go on once a week on fresh water (in clean water bowls)and they all seem to be very well hydrated this way (for me in my area and conditions).

But maybe in the southwest one must use a different method and provide more humid conditions because the air is dry. Maybe it really all depends on the type of snakes and where you are geographically located...

"Maybe it really all depends on the type of snakes and where you are geographically located..."

Well said Rainer. They are certainly more variables that large sweeping generalities do not take into account.
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Darwin Rocks!

BTW in adding to what you said about bedding rotting, I used to have a similar problem in coastal Virginia. The problem went away when I moved the collection to a climate cntrolled room. AC goes a long way towards reducing humidity.

I'd also add that aspen seems to absorb and hold moisture more readily than pine. Anyone else notice that?
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Darwin Rocks!

Man I just love these posts that actually make sense with usable info.
I agree Tony. Central heat and air makes for a stable temp, low humidity base where ever you live. It's easy to adjust each snakes enclosure as needed through heat tape, substrate, amount of air exchange and size of water container. I agree aspen holds humidity better than pine or newspaper and when I need a more humid enveiroment than aspen holds reasonably (without molding)I use cypress mulch or moist spagnum moss hides.
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Randy Whittington

I think that humidity has alot to do with exposed surface area, and obviously the shred of aspen exposes more surface area than the "peel" of pine.
On another point, what about a snake's ability to alter its humidity? We know they congregate around empty water bowls, but how about the intential spilling of water in their cage? I keep my subadult milks watered with dixie cups and they are quite capable of knocking them over and routinely do. I dont think this is completely by chance, and may be worth noting as I see this as different behavior than soaking and spilling over a bowl.
Lastly, humidity is sought by snakes but not for all the results. It should be noted that humidity in captivity is different because of the pathogen load is MUCH higher. Viral and bacterial diseases thrive in hi humidity environments, as do parasites. Limiting humidity will certainly lessen these problems and in fact be a obvious plus to snakes more susseptable(sp?)to such problems.

Plus it is unrealistic to think that a majority here can/will try to keep animals as they are in nature. Most times it is a trade off of sorts. Is it ever as realistic as in nature?
Obviously it can be worse,but can it be better than in nature?
In some ways, of course. There aren't many predators but many other insidious pathogens and "baddies" looking to take advantage of our mistakes.
Jeff, did you see how the price of mole kings shot up after that Rays victory in game 7 ????
Told ya they would. Shoulda converted when you had the chance.

:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

Well I would have been surprised if they didnt....the only reason would have been because the Rays CHOKED on em! Congrats Mark! Now explain to me why there were empty seats at the game...And I didnt know there were any available as I lost your email again. Fill me in!

The only empties were Sox fans that left.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

I can't find the Yankees playoff scores anywhere ! How'd they do? When's the next one?

26 world championships, a zillion pennants and the most successful and storied franchise in all of sports there has ever been.

PRICELESS~

As Doug Stanhope says, "rooting for the Yankees is like going to a casino and rooting for the house".
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www.brandonosbornereptiles.com

I think you might have changed your opinion Brandon if you had the honor and privilege of watching Mickey Mantle play, or growing up in NYC and watching the other 2 major league teams up and leave town ,the traitors, leaving the Yankees as the only NY team still standing. A long time ago, we fans were privileged to get to exit after the games via the field, to actually walk on the hallowed ground that the Babe , Gehrig, DiMaggio,and company walked on, as well as the greats from all the opposing teams , who have often been quoted as feeling the chill and thrill of simply being in Yankee Stadium.I think if you experienced even a fraction of that, you might just change the way you feel. Just a fan spouting off. PS I hate the ownership as much as anyone, but the owner is not the team.

Howie, just trying to ruffle your feathers. I know how Yankee's fans can be.lol. Donnie Mat is from my hometown and I still see him out every now and then. If I had to choose a team, it would probably be the Yankees.
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www.brandonosbornereptiles.com

You succeeded in ruffling bro. By the way if I did not mention, your music was very well received not only by me but my neighbors son who enjoyed in immensely. very polished and strong.Mats was my favorite when he played for the Yanks, and it is a shame that the year after he retired they won the world series.

So are you in mourning like me about the demise of Yankee Stadium?? What a total shame! My friends got to go up for a game this year and said they got pretty choked up. I don't know if I coulda done it!
RIP Yankee Stadium.
Where have you gone Joe DiMaggio?
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

Yeah, it gave me many happy memories as it did my father before me. I loved that old place. of course the new stadium is about 100 yards from this so its almost hallowed ground, but will never be the same.

Can ya smell the infield??
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

but as cap'n thurman once said, i'm just happy to be here!

if it wasn't for jim rice slugging 46 hr's in 1978 i might have become a yankees fan too...

daveb
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in the light, you will find the road...

Jim Rice. a name from the past. i go further back than that i'm afraid. how about yaz and conigliaro.

>> "how about yaz and conigliaro."
Yikes, whenever I hear Tony C's name I still picture that Sports Illustrated cover with his face smashed by the pitch. ugh

The best method i learned from Llyoyd Lemke about 25 years ago was put the water dishes in one day and remove the next. Water was only offered onece a week to all the snakes and then the dishes sterilized. I think the main reason Lloyd did it that way because of tranferable falggelates and parasites that come from water dishes left in a cage for to many days

I've started doing that for a different reason -

I'm mother smurfing tired of them spilling their water dishes. I thought I had the problem solved by using dishes with a big diameter - but some of them would just push substrate up into them.

The conclusion I came to is that maybe they thought it too humid in there, and were trying to adjust get rid of of the humidity source.

So now I put water dishes in for 24 hours twice a week - except for the babies, which get them all the time (smaller water dishes though, so they don't humidify the tubs as much).

Some idiots in California have been trying to pass some idiotic law stating that any pet must have access to potable water 24/7 (amongst some other ridiculous crap, like no mice/rats being sold before they are weened, and rodent cage requirements that *just happen* to be slightly bigger than standard lab rodent racks provide) - I hope they never sneak that crappy law through, they clearly do not understand pet needs.
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Arrrggg!
It's like Shalom, but for pirates.
- iCarly

I largely use those heavy ceramic bowls. Where they are in use I don't have any problems with tipping but I will still occasionally have a snake crawl in during a shed phase and cause the bowl to overflow. My blotched kings are big on this. My solutions was simply to lower the level in the bowl when I notice a shed phase coming.

Interesting comment about the pathogens affecting the water that is kept in the cage though. With less than 30 animals I certainly have time to manually water them twice weekly but given my room's drier air I think they need the humidity that water bowls lend to their environments. If for no other reason this is a good call for more frequent disinfection of bowls instead of simple dump and fills! I've read recently that someone was using a large pipe cap as an anchor and deli cups as disposable inserts. That would be efficient from a time perspective but I just can't bring myself to use and discard so much extra plastic. Guess that leaves me with elbow grease!

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Darwin Rocks!

I use the large ceramic bowls in my 32 quart tubs, and don't have a problem in them.

The problem happens for me in 4qt and 12qt tubs - I can't find the nice heavy ceramic bowls for them except at shows, local places just don't stock them.

But I have gotten some, and that's where I often have a problem with them then pushing substrate up into the bowls.

I'm semi tempted to just go to newspaper and no aspen, but I like them to able to bury themselves in aspen, and they seem to like it too.

btw - the ones that do bury the water dish (most don't) don't push the aspen all to one side w/o the water dish and also haven't yet when I put it back in for only 24 hours.

I don't know what their motive was for that behavior, but maybe it was them trying to modify their habitat because the water dish was too big and they felt too humid.

Maybe I should add additional holes to the tubs.
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Arrrggg!
It's like Shalom, but for pirates.
- iCarly

Good post Tony...well thought out and informational. And delivered without the slightest hint of superiority.
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God Bless Evolution.

bad sheds are caused by poor feeding habits too......
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......

What do you mean by this??

True but poor hydration should almost always be the first suspect.
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Darwin Rocks!

have you ever offered a dry water bowl next to the full water bowl? it is possible that the snake likes/prefers the size and shape of the water bowl to the hide box it is provided with. are your hide boxes round, square or rectangular in shape? have you experimented with this before basing your hypothesis? frank seems to base his on obsevation, study and experimentation. don't think i am trying to defend frank, as we all know he doesn't need or probably want my or anyone elses help in defense of his hypothesis'. regards, rusty

I may try the two bowl idea. That sounds interesting.

Some people, myself included, can't help but experiment and question. We're always looking for a new way, a better way, a more efficient way. The thing is, that's not for everyone. Many people just want to do what is known to work and enjoy other aspects of this hobby/industry. We should respect that.

It's the same with just about any interest. Take cars, for example. One person may see a car as a simple mode of transportation and buy something that suits his needs and gets decent mileage and has room for his family. The next guy may be all about speed and power and trick out his car with high performance parts and shiny rims. Another guy may be super green and have to have the most fuel efficient hybrid available. And some of those guys will want to experiment. The green guy may build his own biodiesel conversion kit for his 20-year-old Volkswagen pickup and the hot rodder may experiment with drilling holes in his thermostat and trying out a new hi-po exhaust system and reprogramming his chip every few months.

Don't like the car analogy? How about mountain biking? You can get a really sweet mountain bike that is totally capable and acceptable to 95% of the population. But there are guys who ponder the virtues of one gearset over another, or if they should spring for the titanium bar ends instead of the aluminum just to save 5 grams. And they'll probably end up buying both and switching until they find what works for them.

How about dieting? Eating healthy is pretty simple and the information to set up a nutritious diet is free to everyone in this country. But type the word "diet" into a search engine and see what comes up. There are about a million different ways people have come up with to lose weight, be healthy, prevent cancer, control diabetes, etc. Many of them are contradictory. And people experiment like crazy always looking for what they believe will be the best.

My point is that experimentation is good. Differences of opinion are good. But not everyone wants to experiment on their snakes.

One problem I see with some of the posts on this forum are the assumptions made. As I said in a previous post in the thread below and Bluerosy also explained, snakes and other animals in one region may vary and have physiological differences from animals in another region. It would be unwise of us to think that snakes from Arizona or Nevada would have the same humidity and moisture requirements as those found in Louisiana or Florida.

Sorry, I am rambling again. It's early and I can't sleep.
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1.1.0 Hondurans Het Amel
1.1.0 Hondurans Anery, Het Hypo
0.1.0 Honduran Hypo
0.1.0 Honduran Hypo, Het Anery
0.2.0 Pueblans
1.0.0 Pueblan Hypo
1.0.0 Thayeri MSP
0.0.1 GBK Blair's Phase
1.0.0 California King
0.1.0 California King Blue-eyed Blond
0.0.1 Speckled King WC
0.0.1 Jungle Carpet
0.1.0 Ball, Normal
1.0.0 San Diego Gopher, Poss. Het Applegate
0.0.1 Sulcata
0.1.0 Girlfriend, Caucasius Mexicana, Fiancee Phase

http://www.cafepress.com/shedz

"My point is that experimentation is good. Differences of opinion are good."

I would agree. Experimentation is good as long as it's well thought out and the results accurately interpreted and communicated. I think we can all agree that removing water and waiting to see if your animals suffer from it is not good method!

Differences of opinion are good too however, that does not mean that you have to be completely post modernistic and act like every statement has merit because sometimes they don't. We can disagree but the key to keeping it civil and interesting is not being so invested in your own ideas that you're willing to misrepresent opposing viewpoint.

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Darwin Rocks!

Exactly!
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1.1.0 Hondurans Het Amel
1.1.0 Hondurans Anery, Het Hypo
0.1.0 Honduran Hypo
0.1.0 Honduran Hypo, Het Anery
0.2.0 Pueblans
1.0.0 Pueblan Hypo
1.0.0 Thayeri MSP
0.0.1 GBK Blair's Phase
1.0.0 California King
0.1.0 California King Blue-eyed Blond
0.0.1 Speckled King WC
0.0.1 Jungle Carpet
0.1.0 Ball, Normal
1.0.0 San Diego Gopher, Poss. Het Applegate
0.0.1 Sulcata
0.1.0 Girlfriend, Caucasius Mexicana, Fiancee Phase

http://www.cafepress.com/shedz

In the context of my particular observation, the water bowl was the prime source of water and or humidity. Running out of water is not something that happens regularly in my collection of 27 animals so I really can't offer an opinion on an empty bowl as a hide preference. I would think however that as bowls dry out the snakes move inside them to get as close as possible to the last available moisture. FR is correct in that they are constantly seeking to maintain hydration. The snakes then wait there waiting for the "event" that will bring more water to its usual collecting spot.

You do however bring up an alternate interpretation of the observation that is also valid. If you are interested, this would seem to be easy enough to test without removing water from the enclosure by simply keeping two bowls in the cage, one empty and one full. My GUESS is that the most snakes would only rarely take up residence in the empty bowl only if another hide that it can go UNDER is available.

Generally the hides I provide are simple layers of newprint overtop the bedding, which is usually, pine shavings. This is cheap and disposable if it gets soiled and I can provide multiple hides around the cage to give my animals a choice. The only drawback is it isn't pretty.
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Darwin Rocks!

I wish I could crawl into my favorite water bowl.

Me too

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Darwin Rocks!

I Know I'm just one example, but I had the curling up in the dry water thing happen. I went on a ten day vacation this past summer. I filled all my water bowls up and asked a friend to check on my collection. Well, he didn't do such a good job. When I got back the water bowls were empty in my everglades rat and amazon tree boa cages, and guess where the snakes were; in the dry water bowls. At first this came as a surprise to me, as neither one of them ever spend much time in their water bowls, but as I thought about it, it made perfect sense. Also, I think there was a comment made about, if snakes drank when it rained it should be easy to find them "out drinking". I'm sure they do drink when it rains, they just do it from where ever it is they are hiding. They don't have to travel out of hiding to drink rain water, it comes to them.
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Matt Kauffman

No offense Tony, but your making my point. Yes, when a snake is dehydrated it will coil in the water bowl. It will go to places that has had water in the past.

My point is, they do not do that if they are hydrated.

Again I make my point by actually testing and doing. I have and are currently raising kings without water. Successfully.

While you get your ideas from captive conditions, that may or may not be all that suitable for the actual snake. Then keepers "FIX" those unsuitable conditions by using quick fixes like soaking, wet boxes etc.

The point is to give the snake conditions that will allow it to not have to seek "quick fixes"

I will make two quick points here. These points are what get me interested in this subject.

One, as a zoo exhibit builder, I saw a high degree of gout in zoo animals. Not one zoo, not every animal, but its a very common malady. So I investigated the reason. As a cage designer, that is my job. To make displays pleasing to the eye, they must have composition. They must have something to look at. So they are often high with lots of air space. Then in order to keep that display nice, all lighting or heating is done from above. So that the devices cannot be seen. This creates lots of air movement and lots of dehydration. Even if the snakes have constant drinking water, they are in a constant state of water loss though the skin. In extreme cases like these, it will result in gout or kidney failure or merely excessive stress.

Then, as a field herper, we often see snakes stationary for several months. That is, they will stay in one place without moving and without the need to drink water or find food.

When I see that, I wonder why our captives cannot do that. As many of you mentioned, if you do not offer drinking water, they will die. So these last two paragraghs ask a question. Why can wild individuals do something captives normally cannot.

So as any good researcher would do, you test it. Can you raise kings without water, the answer is yes. How do you do that, the answer is prevent water loss thru the skin. How is that done, easy, to offer conditions that the snake can choose that prevent water loss thru the skin.

What do the results mean? it means by design, these snakes do not require drinking water if they can control their own water loss.

What we see in the field is, this one function is the most important and first function considered. Particularly with thin skinned easily dehydrated snakes such as kings.

How this effects you or others, it does not have to mean anything, or it can provide you with another tool to increase your animals captive health and success. No more, no less.

What is odd is, your reaction. You seen to have to have everything FIT your thoughts, yet you have no reason or experience to require that. Do you?

The point of research and field work is to provide a better or another understanding of these fine animals. But for some reason, you do not want to listen. remember, listening does not require you to apply or use any of this. I would think a decent mind would want to hear the whats and whys. Then judge something. At least one should question and requestion what we are doing with these fine animals in captivity. Cheers

As a premptive strike for the argument that will probably ensue I just wanted to say that I am just happy to be here.

In addressing the gout thing you bring up I have to admit that I don't know much about this subject. I do know that for humans proper hydration is essential in managing gout once you have it, but I'm not sure that poor hydration causes it in the first place. Not sure if this observation was relevant or just a detractor but there it is....

As for the rest, its all about context Frank.

Most people keeping reptiles are not doing so in zoo settings were display requirements or designs greatly increase dehydration rates.

Most people keeping snakes are not seeking to emulate extreme survival conditions.

I've gone to great lengths to give you props for getting concepts about hydration right but I simply disagree with your base conclusion that snakes only drink out of extreme need. That you have raised kings without liquid water says nothing of actual behavior. The only thing that you have proven is that under controlled artificial conditions they can go without liquid water. to date what you have put out as "research" does not support your reasoning that drinking water is simply a quick fix! If you have other actually relevant observations that further support this reasoning I'd be glad to here about them but more pepper and less of the other stuff please.

Speaking of doing something new why don't you honestly support your statement instead of heading down the familiar path of questioning my experience? That's getting old though I am still happy to just be here.
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Darwin Rocks!

And I echo those sediments.

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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Frank,

I'm very intrigued. I'd like to know what method(s) you would suggest to someone who wants to try and maintain a setup in the manner you've proposed.
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1.1.0 Hondurans Het Amel
1.1.0 Hondurans Anery, Het Hypo
0.1.0 Honduran Hypo
0.1.0 Honduran Hypo, Het Anery
0.2.0 Pueblans
1.0.0 Pueblan Hypo
1.0.0 Thayeri MSP
0.0.1 GBK Blair's Phase
1.0.0 California King
0.1.0 California King Blue-eyed Blond
0.0.1 Speckled King WC
0.0.1 Jungle Carpet
0.1.0 Ball, Normal
1.0.0 San Diego Gopher, Poss. Het Applegate
0.0.1 Sulcata
0.1.0 Girlfriend, Caucasius Mexicana, Fiancee Phase

http://www.cafepress.com/shedz

It would be difficult to say an exact method, as everyone has different cages and different conditions.

The main culprid is air movement and the snake exposed to air. Limit air movement and allow them to hid in places that their body contacts solid walls, as in a rock crack, or damp dirt.

In the pic, a pyro is moving to heat, normally they do not expose themselves to open air, unless its fairly humid. Cheers

If you choose to go with such a set up I would simply like to ADD that air movement and humidity must be balance. Too little air movement and you get stagnent conditions. Too much and the cage drys out too quickly. The operative point in FR's post is that everyones conditions are different.
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Darwin Rocks!

Makes sense and is similar to my own observations.
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1.1.0 Hondurans Het Amel
1.1.0 Hondurans Anery, Het Hypo
0.1.0 Honduran Hypo
0.1.0 Honduran Hypo, Het Anery
0.2.0 Pueblans
1.0.0 Pueblan Hypo
1.0.0 Thayeri MSP
0.0.1 GBK Blair's Phase
1.0.0 California King
0.1.0 California King Blue-eyed Blond
0.0.1 Speckled King WC
0.0.1 Jungle Carpet
0.1.0 Ball, Normal
1.0.0 San Diego Gopher, Poss. Het Applegate
0.0.1 Sulcata
0.1.0 Girlfriend, Caucasius Mexicana, Fiancee Phase

http://www.cafepress.com/shedz

The point is, I have no problem raising kings without water. So they can easily achive a decent balance.

Its not theory, its something already and easily done. Cheers

I may be sarcastic Frank but being insulting is bad form too. For the record, I don’t miss every point; I just feel that you often fail to present a clear line of reasoning.

You had the opportunity to say how this works but bailed out by saying, “It would be difficult to say an exact method”

If it’s “easily done” why don’t you ask a few specifics about MFOUX’s conditions and provide him with the advice he requested.
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Darwin Rocks!

filler: a substance added to a product(as to increase bulk, weight, viscosity, opacity, or strength).

Fortunatly most here know it when they smell it.........I mean see it.
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Randy Whittington

Gentlemen, its called DEW. The daily air changes from darkness to sunlight changes humidity and creates DEW IN ALL AREAS. This is NOT dependant on where you live or habitat type. I think this obviously pertains to small snakes, they can gather relatively larger amounts per body size....and cant be as deeply hidden so they have access. As they grow it can easily be summized that maximum size could indeed be influenced by dew available in a given area. In fact many tropical snakes have been found to take advantage of their own scales and practically funnel water to the mouth.
Its accepted that the largest snakes in the world are generally found in areas of with heavy rainfall(even if followed by extended draught where they hide underground). Most keepers using this forum like growth maximized in captives, almost by definition this is why we eliminate parasites(the nature of a parasite is to be symbiotic with its host). You can say we are "experimenting" by removing parasites, I would say most of us wouldnt agree with that. We see bigger snakes as healthier,period. Limiting water intake will certainly limit size if not health directly. Water weight influences everything from digestive juices to cell regeneration relating to either growth or immunodeficiency.
And I will see your gout and raise you the gastrically challenged....animals or humans.

Thanks for chiming in Jeff. Good point on the accumulation of dew. On a cool night in the Alligator River Wildlife Reserve I once observed a copperhead drinking dew off its own scales.

Try as I might I just can't let go of this particular FR post. In the context of unique conditions that he may have established, perhaps his idea makes sense but without some detailed explanation of how it is done I'm afraid that less experienced keepers might try some of the measures he suggests with very bad results. Reptiles in general and snakes in particular already suffer from their "low maintenance pet" status. I can almost hear some newbe reading these posts and thinking, " Wow, I don't even need to water them"! In my view snakes generally deserve more attention to proper care not less.

Anyway FR made an interesting compare and contrast in his last post. It follows here:

"as a field herper, we often see snakes stationary for several months. That is, they will stay in one place without moving and without the need to drink water or find food.

When I see that, I wonder why our captives cannot do that. As many of you mentioned, if you do not offer drinking water, they will die. So these last two paragraghs ask a question. Why can wild individuals do something captives normally cannot."

To really drive the contrast home he used zoo-displayed animals where dehydrations is / was a real problem.

Lets look at one side of this equation again, "we often see snakes stationary for several months. That is, they will stay in one place without moving and without the need to drink water or find food". It's that last "or find food" part that gets me. To me it's quite evident that the wild snakes FR refers to are enduring some pretty extreme conditions. They are in complete survival mode. Given my limited experience doing actual field research this is just speculation but such animals for all intensive purposes are dormant. This means that all metabolic processes are slowed as much as possible. Not only are they not taking in heat, nourishment and moisture normally but also respiration is slowed and output of waste is almost completely shut down. FR's question is a legit one because it could be asked but I miss its relevance to keeping reptiles under conditions that facilitate normal activity much less optimal growth and reproduction.

Here is the contrast as I see it. In nature such a dormant animal is taking LITTLE from a HUGE environment in the way of O2, moisture or heat and nothing in regard to food. Likewise it is not depositing a lot of CO2, fecal matter or urates into its immediate environment. From the standpoint of environmental impact to a natural hide it may as well not even be there! In contrast an active growing and reproducing captive animal is taking in heat, nourishment and moisture. It is likewise producing waste material and utilizing O2 in proportionately higher amounts. Even in the largest best-designed cage or enclosure such an animal is having a HUGE impact on its environment and that can very easily lead to conditions not conducive to good health. This is why I believe that proposing a mix of moist substrates, hi humidity and decreased airflows in order to prevent a moisture loss, such that normally active animals don't need to drink, is to invite conditions ripe for pathogens to grow out of control. Perhaps FR has a handle on it but my guess would be that maintaining proper hygiene for setups for communally housed and power fed animals would prove a nightmare.

For those that think I'm disrespecting Frank I'm sorry. The alternate views I bring up or the questions I ask are generally supported and reasoned. I know that my participation here is often sarcastic. I should also know that sarcasm is almost never taken well by people on the other side, so yes I've showed "bad form" from that perspective but from mine this is just an attempt to be entertaining while engaging in these conversations. For me its a simple two Guinness state of mind when I talk reptiles. It's all in fun. If I offend anyone I'm sorry but what I'd really like is someone to explain themselves better or correct me if I'm completely off base. Saying I lack experience or a good mind accomplishes nothing.

Anyway, I think I'm going fishing for a while. The exchange of good information is certainly important to me but I suspect that despite significant effort to make a post that contains supported ideas in a non-combative manner, it likely will not endure.

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Darwin Rocks!

Tony,
Very good post. I agree with pretty much everything you've said here.
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once i was sitting by a stream and a snake came over and drank from the stream and left.
have fun fishin, and dont forget tony ... water your snakes!,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Tony,
While reading your post something popped in my head, either influenced by your writing, or not. I'm not really sure, but that's beside the point.

Digestion. I'm sure it's a key factor between wild and captive animals.

Digestion and excretion requires the use of lots of bodily fluids when it happens. I'm sure we feed our animals MUCH more often then they eat in the wild, so their water requirements would be much higher.

Another thought was daily temperature fluctuations. Nightly drops slow the snakes metabolism a bit, buying them more time (in my eyes) with regards to nutritional metabolsim.

So, I'm not taking any sides one way or the other, it was just a quick momentary observation I had that I thought I'd bring up. If it's been mentioned already and I've re-posted, my apologies.
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Tom

"The more people I meet, the more I like my snakes"

Just curious...What makes you think that our captive snakes each more in our cages than they do in the wild? And if that is true why do wild animals still hold the maximum size limits? I mean if that is truly the case that our captive animals are in better health because they don't have to deal with the "harsh" conditions that nature provides why are we not setting new size records every year?

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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

I meant to say "eat".
This is also not to say that our captive animals are not in better shape than some wild animals, but we also cannot touch the healthiest ones in terms of our care. I'm pretty sure that a healthy adult snake in prime habitat eats at will, whenever it wants to.

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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

In the wild only the very fittest survive and they exist in the exact conditions for which they evolved. The comparison of wild snakes to captive-bred lines pretty muchs stops at them both being snakes. Just my two cents. As for the feeding thing my inclination is to think they eat more in captivity relative to output but that isn't based on anything real.
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Darwin Rocks!

Great thoughts!!
My thoughts....

" What makes you think that our captive snakes each more in our cages than they do in the wild? "

I am of the opinion that our snakes in captivity eat way more than in the wild, and I believe that for many reasons.

a). Feeding regimens can vary from keeper to keeper. Some feed once a week, twice a week, 10 million times a week, once every other week, etc.. In the wild, since they are opportunistic, they eat when they can, whenever they can, plain as day. They are never guaranteed any meals in any amount of time. Because of those factors, they eat when it is available. It could be one animal or 4 at one time, and then it could be weeks or a month at least before their next meal, or a few days, it just depends on the situation.

b) The consistent and abundant supply of food we give them. Again, they are not guaranteed anything in the wild, so they basically have to almost take what the situation gives. They really have it made, being in captivity, that is for sure!!!

" And if that is true why do wild animals still hold the maximum size limits? I mean if that is truly the case that our captive animals are in better health because they don't have to deal with the "harsh" conditions that nature provides why are we not setting new size records every year?"

Wild animals hold the maximum size limits probably because, and again, just my opinion, because they have what our captives do not have, which they may be healthier in this aspect: Unlimited space to roam freely, and unlimited ways to thermoregulate. We do what we can, we give them a plastic box to live in, maybe some heat tape or heat a room, and voila, this is what they have and will always have in captivity!! Kinda pales in comparison to the wild, don't you think??

Because of the unlimited space to roam, they get a million times more exercise than our captives do. In doing so, they simply are possibly healthier, not fat or obese and confined to a box, and they benefit from all of the exercise.

Also, their diet is perhaps way more varied than in captivity. That may also possibly play a factor as well???

Of course, we save them from the many harsh conditions of the wild, like other predators, cars, etc.. They do not ever need to worry about crossing a road and getting flattened or becoming some big predator's meal.

Take care!
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Genesis 1:1

Good thoughts Tom. Another thing is that consistent availability of water may impact digestion too. I know trans pecos rats seem to not digest as well if water is consistently available.

Anyway, I tend to think of most snakes as opportunistic drinkers, that is they drink when they can and conserve when they must. This is simply a different view than FR's. Side taking isn't necessary.
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Darwin Rocks!

I don't know about wild individuals but I've found many of my lampropeltis & elaphe,& heterodon don't really drink under humid conditions. Whereas my pituophis,boas,& pythons drink often. I have noticed that in warmer weather the last 3 groups soak. Heterodon & lampropeltis only soak in shed. Elaphe vary on individuals. I won't say that crawl to the water bowl every time it gets hot but when the air is dry they drink more. Water conservation comes into play if water is being loss even the disposal of bodily waste conserves water. Scalation of a species plays a major role. With that said I think snake are opportunistic drinkers in the wild but captives drink when conditions demand it.

I often wondered how there were so many black rat snakes behind my house, and there's no water for miles.
Well, I was doing some improvement work to the garage, and found a 3'x3' void in the concrete where there was previously some plumbing (It was a house before it was a garage.), and that area was low, and was just a dirt floor with some holes in it, very secure. It was obviously a hibernaculum, but it was below the frostline, had an area where it retained the heat of the day, was sheltered from air movement, and had a tiny puddle in one corner. It also had quick access to an old series of vents if water got in there. (That's how I think the snakes found it.)
When my king escaped, I wondered how he ended up in the (Unattached.) garage, now I know.
This was some 3 feet underground, and perfect for hibernating rat snakes.

Oh, I forgot to mention, it had a juvenile black rat snake in there, when I peeled up the floor.