Reptile & Amphibian Forums

All,

SWPARC (Southwest Partners in Amphibian and Reptile Conservation - a group of mostly academics and agency biologists) has created a draft, new Model Herp Regs document to update the current Model Herp Regs. They are now accepting comments about it. Actually, they were accepting comments for 30 days in September. They said they might extend it if more private stakeholders wanted to comment.

I explained to them that this was not enough time to get it out to the folks and for them to respond (This looks like agenda advancement.). They say they want comments from the stakeholders. The stakeholders are the tens of thousands of folks in the herp industry from single pet owners up to dealers and big companies. I told them that they need to get a campaign started and have the academics and agency biologists bring the message to the masses about this document. Then they might get some stakeholder responses. They seem not to want to listen. Again, agenda advancement.

If you want to make comments on this document and read it contact Polly Conrad at the Nevada Department of Wildlife: 702-486-5127x3718 or pconrad@ndow.org. I would post it here but they made it into a fancy PDF color document. You can't even cut and paste it into WORD. For a "draft" document this seems highly unusual. I also have a copy of it and you can email me at OHI2007@elp.rr.com. I will post my comments on the document below, however, without reading the "draft" first it might be hard to understand what I am commenting on.

PARC Model State Herp Regulations: Comments and Feedback

1. Do not use PDF’s for soliciting comments. This is user unfriendly. Because this has been used for these draft regs, I will not be able to make complete comments thus you will not get the stakeholders complete response. You can not copy and paste PDFs into WORD and then comment on each statement. This format will bias the comments and ability of folks to respond. If these are just draft regs then why do they have to be so “fancy” now? It doesn’t make sense. This seems to be an attempt to influence the content of these model herp regs by not allowing complete comment. Why else would you do it? In other words, those folks who put this together have decided what the main content of this document should be and that comments are being limited, by making commenting extremely difficult, so as not to allow a complete rewrite of these ideas. This format and the real difficulties in making complete, honest, comments seems contrived to push an agenda.

2. SWPARC/National PARC has not made a sincere effort nor followed the suggestions of the few private folks involved to solicit the participation of stakeholders at large. I have made numerous suggestions to Polly Conrad on how to do this and it has not been done. I will cut and paste some of the suggestions I have made below. This is not an exhaustive list of my suggestions:

I asked you for a WORD version of the Model Herp Regs to post on Kingsnake.com and still nothing has been posted there. Hibbitts posted something on the FHF (Field Herp Forum) but people just commented there. Have you contacted any of the herp groups (USARK, NCARK, HCU, PIJAC) or societies? Did they adequately get the info to their members? Have you contacted a couple dozen of the top breeders in the country? Have you contacted a couple dozen of the top dealers in the country? Is an easy way to comment set up?

and

If Whit Gibbons, Dave Wake, Joe Collins or Ken Dodd or a dozen well known professional herpetologists got on the forums, made appearances at herp society meetings, at herp shows, and contacted herp groups Board of Directors and made a campaign for the next two years, lets say, I would call that an effort.

Without an equal amount of folks from the private sector and academia, in a decision making capacity, these Model Herp Regs are merely agenda pushing. Without a representative amount of comments from the stakeholders concerning these Model Herp Regs you are just pushing your agenda. Until the playing field is leveled this is just an exercise in agenda advancement.

3. You are making these Model Herp Regs to complicated and not defining your terms. What is your definition of “personal collection”? What happens if someone identifies themselves as a “personal collector” but then decides down the road to sell those specimens he collected for personal use? Many “recreational hobbyists” try to hide their activities because they, as humans, practice minimization and justification. How is “trading” and “trades” defined? How is a “gift” defined. How are you going to show that a specimen is wild caught or captive born? You need to define the terms you are using FIRST and get comments on the definitions.

4. Any herp species (including protected species) legally possessed should be allowed to be sold, bought, traded, gifted and transported.

5. Any herp species that is not listed as Endangered or Threatened (E or T) should be allowed to be harvested. Any herp species that is not listed as E or T should have a realistic harvest amount (bag limit) set for it IF NEEDED. This includes “species of special concern.” Often times the use of “species of special concern” is used to stop collectors and hobbyists while the bulldozers of development keep rolling and killing them. Again ANY non-E or T species should be allowed to be harvested.

6. Bag limits should be based on actual, geographically relevant data and not the opinion of the agency biologists or their academic buddies.

7. All regulations should be based on data and not the opinion of agency biologists and academia.

8. The sale of legally collected wild caught herps should be allowed in all cases. It doesn’t matter (other than abuse or intentional introductions) what is done with a harvested animal after it is harvested.

9. Sustainable harvest amounts should be determined for all non-protected species for which there is a concern. This has to be backed up with real, geographically relevant data.

10. Herps should be managed similarly to game animals taking into account their much larger populations, the fact that they are captured alive, and the fact that they are kept, bred and sold.

11. The conflict of interest between AR leaning academics and those that come from academia, the agency biologists, must be reconciled.

12. Stakeholders should have more input into resource decisions. Decision making bodies and other “power” bodies should have equal privates to professionals. Within the private ranks should be equal commercial to recreational folks.

13. It is the responsibility of the purchaser of herp pets or breeder animals to know the proper care of the specimens being purchased.

14. Develop a process by which private individuals can keep, breed and sell E or T species. Captive breeding should be encouraged of any E or T species. This includes commerce in said species. Tracking protocols can be set up.

15. Work with law enforcement to better train their employees so win/win regs can be created. Do not allow excuses of the past to interfere in this process.

16. Tracking individual wild caught animals is to much work and not a prudent use of resources. Simplify all regs and requirements. Any species that is legally harvested can be sold. State to state rules should be normalized and the same across the nation. National regs should be developed so commerce can be conducted as effortlessly as possible. Law enforcement will have to do its job. The only thing the states set is bag limits and determining E and T species.

17. Get rid of all references to restricted and prohibited species “only for zoos, public education programs, zoos and museums.” This is elitist and from a conservation perspective WRONG! Any qualified private person should have the same rights and privileges as any professional person or institution.

18. Many rehabbers and “education” folks use their permits to collect, possess and sell species that are prohibited to stakeholders at large. This should be fixed. Also many academics, zoo and museum personnel and other permitted folks use their scientific permits to collect animals for their personal collection. I know many cases where this is so. It is on going now. This needs to be fixed.

19. Surplus research specimens and their progeny should be disposed to accredited zoos and so forth? No. They should be disposed of to any qualified person. And it should not be prohibitively difficult for non-institutional folks (privates) to acquire these animals. This is elitism. You want to promote captive propagation not restrict it.

20. All laws and regs should be designed to promote the captive propagation of all herp species (including protected species).

21. Requiring documented proof of all animals held and their origin is difficult. Florida does not require a hunting license for herps so how can you document that? How do gifts and trades fit in? If I wild collect animals and have a hunting license how are you going to know that I actually caught those animals? Legal pathways for all activities and scenarios need to be set up. Laws and regs are so complicated it is a law enforcement dream. This needs to be fixed.

22. Do not regulate us to death.

23. Do not evoke the horribly flawed precautionary principle in any decision making situation. Further, “best available science” could be described as the opinion of some “expert.” If that expert is biased or pushing an agenda then is this fair? I don’t think so. Real data must be used.

24. Get rid of the “comprehensive list.” Only species that have current, unbiased, geographically relevant data that gives accepted evidence to their E or T status should be prohibited from collection. However, a program of harvest with strict conservation protocols and monitoring by agency biologists should be developed to allow these species to be captively produced. The fact that taking care of animals costs money must be considered. Private folks that work with these species must either be paid, do it out of the kindness of their heart or be allowed to sell some or all of their offspring. With proper tracking protocol. By allowing private folks to take on the financial burden of captive breeding protected species this frees up the states financial resources for other priorities.

In conclusion, again, I couldn’t make comments on each individual topic in these Model Herp Regs because I couldn’t cut and paste the document into WORD. Since private stakeholders are not an equal part of the decision making process about this document I, as a private stakeholder, see this as more agenda pushing by the PARCers. Also, since a representative amount of private stakeholders did not make comments on this document it does not represent their opinion. I think this is being rushed and what first needed to be accomplished was a mending of the relationship between academics and those that come from academia (agency biologists) and private stakeholders. This tarnished and badly damaged relationship should have been the first priority. Then we can talk about creating a fair, unbiased, all inclusive Model Herp Reg document.

Mike Welker
OHI
El Paso, TX

Well said Mike!

MH

Hey Matt,

Thanks for the positive comment. I know there are lots of folks out there that see things my way. I have run into lots of folks in the field or who have emailed me expressing their support. They wonder why I bother with some of these folks. I wonder myself sometime. It is a shame that those that oppose my views would rather try to slam me then find common ground.

Welkerii
El Paso, TX

PARC doesn't do enough for me.....

All those agency biologists are out to get me......

I can't collect and sell everything my heart desires....

If you got up off your keister and spent the same amount of time working WITH said groups instead of railing against them you might see some positive results (but then that would take work and it's always easier to find fault than to make positive change).

You're a broken record and any shred of credibility you have is disappearing fast.

Phil,

I have been a member of PARC since February 10, 2000 and you? I have spent the last year working with Polly Conrad of the Nevada Wildlife Department to try and figure out ways that PARC can get a fair amount of private stakeholders to participate in PARC. What have you done? Ignorant responses like yours serve no purpose and are counterproductive. Have you made any comments about the Model Herp Regs? Why don't you do something positive instead of making ignorant comments on fourms? Is this not America? Don't I have a right to voice my opinion? Where were your suggestions, comments and ideas? Or are you part of the "agenda?" Were just trying to slam me? You should really think before you become a big man behind a key board.

Welkerii
El Paso, TX

I've been a PARC member since 2003 and actively sit on committees for NCPARC. We try very hard to include any and all interested parties including scheduling meetings during times that are most convenient to public participants. We have been very successful on our end working together as a group and to do this we had to check our preconceived notions at the door. One only has to ask Andrew Wyatt from USARK if he believes that there are scientists with hidden "agendas" in NCPARC.

You have every right to voice your opinion just as I have a right to say that it is divisive and destructive.

Phil,

A member of NCPARC? Well, well, well. First of all, making disparaging comments about my views is why you and PARC don’t get it. And as a sitting member this kind of reaction is unprofessional. Why would privates want to work with you, NCPARC or National PARC with comments like that? Thanks for “showing” that I am correct in my post. So because I call out your “agenda” and have differing views I am divisive and destructive? You are just trying to slam differing opinions to advance your “agenda.” It sounds like a good idea to schedule meetings when it is most convenient for the stakeholders but do you dismiss their opinions when they come to the meetings as you did with my post?

I have talked with Andrew Wyatt and we don’t agree on everything. And if USARK decides to sell out the commercial and collector folks in the industry as other new groups have done then I wont support them either. I have told the entire USARK board this. We will see when the position statements are posted. You have every right to voice your opinion but it is helpful to offer up counter arguments. Andrew also understands that it is the academics and agency biologists that have been pushing the boa and python ban not the AR groups. It is pretty much FACT that many academics and agency biologists push an anti-private agenda.

You might not know this but I have been a past member of the NC Herp Society since 1988. I spent my latter high school years in Raleigh. I got my BS from NCSU. I know Braswell, Beane, Davenport, Cooper, Woodward, Herman and the whole crowd. I know the views of some of them folks. And some of them are “agenda” pushers. Others understand the rights of private stakeholders. I would suggest that you try to have an open mind to varying opinions.

If PARC really wants to have high private stakeholder participation they can. They need to abandon the AR anti private agenda. They need to understand that folks need access to new blood and localities. That we live in a capitalistic society where goods and services are bought and sold. This is reality. PARC needs to get rid of the elitist position statements. The academics and agency biologists that have pushed this anti-private agenda need to make amends. The sooner folks realize that far leaning leftist values are counterproductive the better. I have been a supporter of the conservation movement for 20 years but I have also come to see how extremist views are destructive. The middle is where we need to be. This involves trying to accommodate as many views as possible and tearing me down doesn’t accomplish this.

Welkerii
El Paso, TX

sorry that you find my comments unprofessional; I try not to mince words and call it like I see it.

If you could rid yourself of the paranoid idea that biologists in general have a secret AR agenda you would make great strides in helping herpetological causes. The only agenda I have is to try and participate in the bridging of scientific and private communities whose interest in herpetology is under attack from various angles (AR groups and declining populations).

I repeated see you post anti academic ideology and wonder what you hope to gain from this? I have yet to meet a herpetologist in NC that supports AR agendas. Trust me if I had we would have had many animated discussions by now. Many folks see a middle ground where keeper’s rights are BALANCED with sustainable animal populations. Every interest group must be willing to compromise to achieve an equitable solution.

If you really believe that PARC holds an anti keeper mentality than instead of attacking them why not join the group and have your voice heard? I know of many people in this organization who hold keepers rights quite seriously.

Peace

Phil,

You NC folks are so stuck on AR groups it isn’t even funny. Who put forth the USFWS boa and python ban? The USGS, NPS and the SFWMD. All of these government groups have agency biologists that came from academia. They are not AR groups but they push an AR type agenda. Can’t you see that? Are you that blind? Bob Reed who co-wrote the python paper is a former, PARC founder Whit Gibbons, post doc. Who pushed for the box turtle ban in TX? Michael Smith and Lee Fitzgerald of the Box Turtle Coalition. They are both academics.

You need to open your eyes and your mind. If you think that an AR agenda is just not eating meat then you don’t know what an AR agenda is. It is banning activities. It is taking away rights and privileges w/o data. It is setting ridiculously low bag limits. Its shutting down collectors, breeders and hobbyists while not doing anything substantial about the bulldozers of habitat destruction. It is crippling captive propagation and denying folks the ability to get new blood and commerce. Academics continue to do these things. Can you collect and keep spotted turtles in NC? Can you collect and keep horridus in NC? Ask NC resident Dean Ripa what he thinks. Agenda is elitist position statements in the PARC Model Herp Regs: Where should surplus research animals and their progeny be placed? PARC Model Herp Regs response: accredited zoos and research institutions. A non-elitist private stakeholder response: any qualified person including privates.

There are to many examples to give. I don’t have the time to run through them all but you get the picture. Or do you? You might be so blind by “agenda” that you can’t see Skip Snow of the NPS banning you from breeding and selling pythons. Wake up man! Academics push an AR type agenda. If you don’t want to see it then I don’t know what to say.

And finally, you obviously didn’t read my post because I am a member of PARC and was before you were. It looks like you just skimmed my response and focused in on a few things and disregarded the rest.

Welkerii
El Paso, TX

One might say you have an agenda as well....
except your ideology of collecting has no safeguards for the animals that you covet.....
and no evil biologists to help compile and research population numbers.....

You rail against people who have spent their entire professional, and personal, lives protecting herp species. That tells me that you know little about the folks that you slam.

Or you like to hear yourself talk....

I have a secret meeting with the other brothers in academia, we will be sacrificing beanie babies and furthering our "agendas".......Mwhahahahahahahahahahaha.

I'm done with this charade of a discussion. It must be difficult always being right isn't it?

Phil,

You are so funny! When are you getting your own TV show?

Again, it is precisely this sarcastic attitude and blowing off of the stakeholders opinion that makes PARC, academics, agency biologists and people that support them AGENDA pushers. An AGENDA pusher is someone who disregards the will of a large group of stakeholders for a supposed greater cause – their radical view of what conservation should be and in many cases, really, preservation. The view many academics and agency biologists hold just happens to mimic AR groups in many cases. At least most of the private stakeholders think so. This view is radical and extremist. The sky is falling! People who push an AGENDA go to far in their overzealousness to follow their beliefs. You say you just want to protect herps, me to. I have been working on herp conservation for over 20 years. But don’t you think you might want to put a little more energy into fighting habitat destruction, human population growth and the negative impacts of roads? Do you think?

Yes, I have an agenda. I know you don’t want to hear what my agenda is because you are a PARCer and I am a private stakeholder but for the sake of argument let’s run through it. I want data. Data, data, data not opinion, the precautionary principle or best available science. How about real science? I want fair regs. That means you have to solicit stakeholders responses and use them to make the regs. Not say you are taking comments only to throw them in the trash and do what you want any way. You get it? I want the door open to access new blood, new morphs and new localities. The door open. Not cracked or part way open but sustainable harvest open. Money is a part of life on earth. People need to make it because they need to spend it. Herps, both wild caught and captive born, need to be able to be sold. I want to be able to commerce across state and country lines without a complicated mess of laws and regs that are different from state to state and country to country. These laws and regs seem to be only designed to give an unfair advantage to law enforcement and make it prohibitively hard for private folks to commerce or pursue their hobby. That’s what I want. I want realistic bag limits based on data. That’s right data, data and data. Not the opinion of academics and agency biologists who don’t want folks collecting, keeping, breeding and selling in the first place. I don’t want regulation just to have regulation. You get it? I want regulation when needed. When needed means you have to provide sufficient, unbiased data. Again, data, data and data. Putting in regulation just for the sake of regulation is pushing an AGENDA. Oh and by the way I want UNBIASED data. I want OBJECTIVE data. I want GEOGRAPHICALLY RELEVANT data. I don’t want SKEWED data.

I beleive that I have given ample evidence in my posts, as real life examples, as to support my claim that many academics, agency biologists and those that support them are pushing an AR type AGENDA. My first example in the previous email was totally ignored by you. The boa and python ban was pushed by ACADEMICS and those that come from academia. Did you miss that? Do you have trouble reading? You must because it proves my point yet you are so hard headed and blinded by AGENDA you just can’t bring yourself to say that I was correct.

Welkerii
El Paso, TX

join the rest of humanity and work towards the betterment of the herps you profess to care about. Leave the conspiracy theories to Oliver Stone. You would find that most biologists are not supportive of the Boa, Python, and Eunectes petition.

What I find most disturbing about your posts is that there may be herpetoculturalists here who read your ramblings and actually believe what you are saying. I advise anyone to do a litle research themselves and join and get active in groups that promote our hobby rights AND the protection of these amazing animals.

I was a private keeper for 15 years before I ever worked in the field. I had some misguided notions myself about the "agendas" of biologists. Obviously there are a few who don't value the keeping of reptiles but the vast majority are not only supportive but THEY THEMSELVES OWN REPTILES!

Your divise writings go nowhere towards helping the problems we currently face.

Phil,

Why do you keep posting when you obviously are not willing to listen to others views? You have your mind made up so all the debating in the world will not change your views. You are blinded by agenda. You continue to degrade me with your snide comments. This shows everyone here that you are an “agenda” pusher. You say that most biologists don’t support the boa and python ban. Well the ones who wrote it do. Their superiors do. The colleagues who made manuscript comments do. The peer-reviewers at the journal it was published in do. Bob Reed has also made comments as to testing his results at conferences with agreement from those folks. So I think you are dead wrong.

You forget that I have been around in this profession for over 20 years. I am not a newbie academic like yourself. Ask your fellow NC colleagues what I was like when I was a newbie? I was an agenda pusher! Ask Davenport and Beane how I was. I have seen things from both sides of the fence. Many academics abuse the precautionary principle at the cost of private stakeholders. This is where the similarities to the AR agenda begin. You can live in denial all you want. I know you are unwilling to look at the big picture and find fault with any professional herpetologists, obviously.

I, too, suggest herpetoculturalists examine the evidence. First task would be to look through the box turtle papers. Is the conclusions that were reached in those papers the only conclusion that could be reached? Are the methods sound? Was the data skewed? Do they have enough data or samples? Now, look at the authors of those papers. Do they work with or support any preservation or conservation box turtle groups that say or publish negative statements about collecting, commercial harvest, hobbyists or the pet trade?

Just do a general read through of many of the popular herp books written by academics (like field guides). Do they state or imply that collection, the pet trade and commercial collection are bad? Do they give any evidence to prove this? Look through any herp papers whose subject is “status in the wild” or any complete natural histories. Are statements made as to the negative affects of collecting, commercial collection and the pet trade? Do they have any evidence in those papers to support these statements?

When state wildlife departments have public comment meetings, do academics give testimony that could be harmful to private herp interests? Do they use the same academic papers that have debatable results, methods, data processing that were discussed above? Are the papers used geographically relevant to the species being discussed? Do they offer opinion and conjecture? You should also look at where these new regs and laws came from. Who suggested them? Who pushed for them? The academics themselves? You must also look at where the agency biologists came from. Are they academics? What do their papers and books say? Who was their academic advisor? What kind of statements have their advisor made in their books and papers? Do they have evidence for their statements?

So, yes, please do some research. But you must have an open mind. If you have any preconceived ideas either way that could affect your interpretation. Study AR groups, their positions and their modus operandi. Do you see any similarities with the statements and actions of academics and agency biologists? What about over all goals and agenda? Do you see any similarities? Don’t let the disagreement about the use of research animals affect the general trends and similarities between the two.

Also look at what you have seen over the years. Have you made comments that were ignored? Have you seen your rights and privileges slowly deteriorate over the years? Have you attend meetings and seen for yourself? Do you agree with how you have been treated as a stakeholder and an American citizen? Has progress been made on stopping the big conservation issues like habitat destruction? Do you think the focus has been adequate?

What positives have you seen? Do you have areas where you can collect? Is it difficult to participate in your hobby because of all the rules and regulations? What methods can you use to collect? Are they fair and reasonable? Are bag limits reflective of data? Are they sufficient to allow the collection of captive breeding groups? Can you sell herps? Can you seek to possess all legally acquired herp species? Can you possess natives? Can you possess exotics? Can you possess venomous? Have you seen regs and laws put in place to supposedly protect herps but they end up just banning your activities while the bulldozers of habitat destruction roll on? What has been done to get your opinion and participation? What new regs or rules have you seen that promote the hobby and your activities? Do you feel like a partner, a victim or a nobody? You tell me.

Finally, I have never said that ALL academics and agency biologists are agenda pushers. I do not believe that all peer-reviewed papers are full of agenda. Most are not. But these things are out there. There is sufficient evidence as to much of what I say. Intent and motivation is a hard thing to prove. I know that many professional herpetologists do care about herps and that’s why they do what they do. When I debate the issues I focus strictly on proving my point not talking about the exceptions or other trends or other truths.

Remember, I am the one that posted my response to the Model Herp Regs. My opinion and views are not the only opinion and views. Phil’s response “showed” that I was correct, at the very least, about how we as stakeholders are treated. It is that kind of disregard and denial to provable facts (boa and python ban) that is the problem. I say there are agenda problems. Phil says that there is no agenda and that I am crazy. Who do you believe?

Yes, we do all need to take the time to work together. But how are we supposed to work together when people like Phil live in a world of denial? When we are treated like our opinion doesn’t matter? When we have to deal with academic and agency biologists elitism and ego? You have to acknowledge there is a problem before you can start to fix the problem, Phil. If you want to keep fighting about and denying that many privates feel this way then you are the one that is not stepping up to help solve our problems. You need to only look in the mirror.

I would start by looking outside of NC at the rest of country. And this MUST be done with an open mind. So if you can’t hang, Phil, step back and get out of the way. There are tens of thousands of stakeholders out here who have opinions and a right to be heard. The sooner you figure this out the better.

Welkerii
El Paso, TX

to opposing viewpoints. Your dedication to a cause would be admirable if your logic wasn't so patently flawed.

I disagree with herpetologists all the time, the difference between them and you is they have data and work experience to debate over, not just ideological ramblings.

This is way past the pointless stage, I'm out.

Phil,

Again, more put downs? Are your points and argument so weak that all you can do is put me down? Are you so blinded by the agenda and your ego that you can’t explain?

If my logic is so flawed then why not explain why it is flawed? C’mon big man explain it! I explained where you can find, read and confirm my point about the agenda of many academics and agency biologists. I didn’t give any exact citations but they are out there. Field guides are a good place to start. Read the introduction sections and see if you can find any negative, anti-private statements. “Like keep a pet for a few weeks and then release it.” Or “commercial collection may be a cause for species decline.” Hello? Where’s your data Mr. Academic. It is these off the cuff statements w/o supporting data that I have a problem with. And these types of statements permeate many books and papers. And the book and paper isn’t even about commercial harvest. This is pushing an agenda. This is trying to foster a negative belief and/or pushing negative propaganda.

Peoples experiences are not in any books or papers. We have brains and can see for ourselves. We are the ones that are affected by these laws not academics. I know there are some academics who keep, breed and commerce in herps but a large majority don’t. Keeping one or two herps is not being a herpetoculturalist. Also some of the academics keep and acquire their herps under their scientific permits so they are not affected by the laws and regs the rest of us have to follow.

You didn’t like my data? Well check out the field guides and see what you can find. I don’t have the time at the moment to work up a list of the papers and books that have agenda in them. My point was that it is pretty common so it shouldn’t be that hard to find in just about anything you pick up.

My work experience? I have way more work experience then you Mr. Phil. I have an AS in Zoo Animal Technology and a BS in Wildlife Science and right this moment I am completing my MS in Environmental Policy and Management with a GIS Certificate. I am the former head of the Herpetology Department at the Central Florida Zoo. I have worked on many wildlife field projects with Reed Noss, Dan Smith, Perran Ross, Ray Ashton, Katie Greenberg and Robert Makowsky. I have been herping all of my life and been a professionally herpetologist for about 20 years. I have taken classes from Steve Tilley, Alvin Braswell and Hal Heatwole to name a few. I have been working for myself for the past two years collecting specimens, breeding herps and working on research projects with UNC, Dr. Dennis Parmaley and other academics. I also work with Med Toxin Venom Lab in Deland, Florida. I have 12 new county records published for Florida and 5 on the way from Alabama. Dr. Dan Smith and myself are STILL working on our eastern indigo and gopher tortoise telemetry papers for peer-reviewed publication. So yea I have plenty of experience. Phil, open mouth insert foot.

Just because we have differing opinions doesn’t mean that I am flawed or crazy. Your whole argument, it seems, was trying to belittle and slam me. Oh and the proven wrong argument about many academics being agenda pushers. You offered little evidence to prove your points. And I thought you were a scientist? And by being your caustic self proved parts of my argument, thanks!

This little debate is a prime example of the disconnect between academics, PARCers, agency biologists and those that support them and private stakeholders. This is what needs to be fixed and mended so we can come together and work on fair, reasonable, win/win herp regs. So we can conserve all herp species for future generations

Welkerii
El Paso, TX

to feed an ego that large?

Phil,

I usually eat two meals a day maybe three. It depends on how long I am up. When I am out in the field it is only twice a day with snacks in between.

My ego is not at issue here. You asked, and insinuated, and I answered.

You set'em up. I knock'em down.

Welkerii
El Paso, TX

Great debate, but Phil sucks. Seems he is more concerned with taking away freedom than to advance what really works. Sounds like his group of guys are the ones buying pythons and/or getting them from wildlife sanctuaries and then filming their secretly released snakes in Florida to advocate the politics of fear to create a hysteria that every person that owns a snake will get bored with it and release it into the wild.

Why doesn't he advocate just bombing us? Hey, he could get three squares a day prison!

Do you actually believe what you just wrote?

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha...............

Wow.