Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Im confused on the punnet square because I get more like a punnet rectangle

Bee would be ?

AaBa

Spider would be ?

Ba

so what percentages do u get?

I figure on an 8 egg clutch u would get

2 Bees 1 Super spider 2 spider 1 pastel and 2 normals

scratch that

so each egg has a the following odds?

Bee 25%
SuperSpider 25%
Spider 25%
Pastel 25%

??

There is no super spider.

A super spider is one that will produce all spiders when bred to a normal. It should/will appear normal looking but have both spider genes and no normal.

To my knowledge no one has proved they have such an animal.

"A super spider is one that will produce all spiders when bred to a normal. It should/will appear normal looking but have both spider genes and no normal."

This is correct. And your percentages, I believe, are also correct (but I am no expert). However, Noah is correct as well. Spiders I guess defy the gene laws -- they are obviously proven codominant, but there are none that have proven to be dominant or the super animal that you subscribed above. No one has had this yet, so no one really knows yet or at least for sure, yet.
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Cheers!
• Chelsea Lynn Gardiner
(and Frank M. Wood)

described not subscribed, haha
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Cheers!
• Chelsea Lynn Gardiner
(and Frank M. Wood)

Again, there is no super spider.
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www.strictlyballs.ca

>Im confused on the punnet square because I get more like a punnet rectangle

>2 Bees 1 Super spider 2 spider 1 pastel and 2 normals

Bee would be Aa Bb, where A is the gene for pastel, a is a normal gene, B is the gene for spider, and b is a normal gene. Spider would be aa Bb.

Theoretical result of the cross:
1/8 normal
2/8 spider
1/8 super spider (Appearance is unknown. May die before hatching or may look like a spider. Will not look normal.)
1/8 pastel
2/8 pastel spider (= bee)
1/8 pastel super spider (if super spider can exist)

Actual results may vary from the theoretical results. That's why one gambler walks away from the tables with empty pockets, and another walks away dripping money.

Hope this helps

Paul Hollander

our odds are a little off Paul's got it!

Paul.
I have never messed with the squares. But wouldn't a bee bred to a normal have a 1 in 4 chance of a bee? If that is the case, why wouldn't a bee to a spider have a better than 1 in 4 shot at a bee.

Also unless it was mentioned in an earlier reply, wouldn't a bee to spider have a good chance of producing a super wobble-head.

Thanks Mike

Hi Mike,

I don't have much time right now. Later this afternoon I'll be back to explain why why a bee to a spider has only a 1 in 4 shot at making a bee.

I think that what you are a calling a super wobble-head what I called a super spider. If so, then yes, there is a 1 in 4 chance of producing one.

The trouble is that nobody seems to know what a super spider (which has a pair of spider mutant genes) looks like. As far as I know, nobody has reported having one on this forum. A super spider could look just like the usual spiders (which have a spider mutant gene paired with a normal gene). It could have a head wobble so bad that nobody wants to breed from it, assuming it is actually capable of breeding. It could die anywhere between fertilization of the egg and hatching. Your guess is as good as mine.

Paul Hollander

saying spider times spider will produce a super wobble head half dead snake is just your guess and has no proof behind it.

I'm sure several people have bred spider to spider. My only point was that with spiders having a variable degree of wobble why breed two of them together. It seems that this might increase your chances of a wobbler. Since there doesn't appear to be a super form of spider, there is no need to breed two of them togeher and chance it. Obviously, everyone has their own opinions and they are free to breed what ever they choose.
Mike

when I say super Im not referring to a snake that looks different than the normal form ex pastel and super pastel. I am referring to an animal that has the ability to produce only that morph when bred to a normal.

a super spider will look like a normal spider but produce only spiders when bred to a normal. Can anyone say that these super spiders are retarded wobblers?

Im sure nerd and others have done multiple spider to spider breedings does anyone know the results????

I understand what you are referring to as a super spider. I'm sure nerd and many others have tried it, I have no idea of the results. The fact that they have a wobble was slow in emerging. Nobody ever said, hey I have spiders for sale at 15K, don't worry about the wobble. If there were super spiders or super pins producing all visuals, that info would be shared. Problems are kept hush hush.
Since there is no visually different looking super spider, I see no benefit breeding two together. I have absolutely no proof that breeding two together produces an excessive wobbler or increases the chance of having regular wobblers, but personally I wouldn't take the chance. Feel free to give it a try and let us know the results.
Mike

Dude:

"Can anyone say that these super spiders are retarded wobblers?"

It's also true that no one is saying that they have a homozygous spider and it's not a retarded wobbler. We just don't know either way so saying either is a guess and could be wrong.

Mike:

If homozygous spiders are as healthy as the regular heterozygous spiders but look the same there would still be a breeding advantage to having one. It would produce 100% spiders rather than 50% chance normals when bred to a normal. From BHB's August Reptile Radio interview it sounded like he has a homozygous pinstripe which he reports looks like a normal pinstripe. Not as exciting as a homozygous pastel but still very useful. Too bad we don't have more info on what has already been tried and found in the attempt at a homozygous spider to know if it's still worth trying or not.

I think a better term than "super" spider would be "homozygous" spider. I thought for sure people have bred spider to spider and never produced a distinctly different snake, so therefore it has been surmised that there is no "super" form.
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Computer geek by day, snake lover by night
.1 Jungle Pastel
.1 Cinny
1.0 Spider
0.0.1 6 year old normal BP

You are correct; when a bee is bred to a normal, each baby has a 1 in 4 chance of being a bee.

In both a bee X normal and a bee X spider mating, the bee has a pastel mutant gene paired with a normal gene. P for pastel and p for normal, with one gene on each chromosome in a chromosome pair (//). So the bee has a P//p gene pair. The other snake, whether spider or normal, has two normal genes, p//p. Half the babies get a P gene from the bee, and the other half of the babies get a p gene from the bee. Both the spider and the normal have a p//p gene pair. All the babies get a p gene from the normal or spider. So half the babies are pastels (P//p) or normal (p//p) in regard to this gene pair.

P and p --> 1/2 P//p or pastel
p and p --> 1/2 p//p or normal

Bees have to have pastel, so theoretically, only half of the babies (the pastels) have any chance at all of being bees.

In the second gene pair, the bee has a spider mutant gene paired with a normal gene. S for spider and s for normal, so the gene pair is S//s. Mate to a normal which has a s//s gene pair. Half the babies get a S gene from the bee, and the other half of the babies get a s gene from the bee. All the babies get a s gene from the normal parent. So half the babies are spiders (S//s) or normal (s//s).

S and s --> 1/2 S//s or spider
s and s --> 1/2 s//s or normal

As half of all the babies are pastels and half of the pastels are also spiders, 1/4 of all the babies are both pastels and spiders (AKA bees). That's how it works in a bee X normal mating.

Now let's do the spider part of a bee X spider mating. Both the bee and the spider have a spider gene paired with a normal gene (S//s). So this part of the mating is S//s X S//s. The bee gives half the babies a S gene. Half of these babies get a S gene from the spider and the other half of the babies get a s gene:
S and S --> 1/4 S//S or ???
S and s --> 1/4 S//s or spider

The bee gives the other half the babies a s gene. Half of these babies get a S gene from the spider and the other half of the babies get a s gene:
s and S --> 1/4 S//s or spider
s and s --> 1/4 s//s or normal

In other words, 2/4 or 1/2 of the babies are S//s spiders. As half of all the babies are pastels and half of the pastels are also spiders, 1/4 of all the babies are both pastels and spiders (AKA bees). That is, 1/4 of the babies are the P//p S//s type bees we are used to. But here's the joker in the deck. Theoretically, 1/4 of the pastels could also be the S//S type of spiders, or 1/8 of the babies could be P//p S//S. So we are back to asking what an S//S snake looks like.

If the P//p S//S snakes live but don't look like P//p S//s bees, then I guess they'd be called bees of some sort, but they would not be the P//p S//s bumblebees we are used to. 1/4 of the babies would still be bumblebees.

If P//p S//s bumblebees and P//p S//S snakes look alike, then they could be lumped together giving 3/8 bumblebees.

If all S//S snakes die, then 2/3 of the living snakes would be S//s and 1/3 of the living snakes would be s//s. As 2/3 of the pastels would also be S//s, that means 1/3 of the living snakes would be bumblebees.

Clear as mud?

Paul Hollander