Reptile & Amphibian Forums

A 10 foot Tiger Retic killed a woman in my area. The biggest snake I own is a Woma, but I can see this is probably going to cause me some grief with what I keep. I've never been favorable for people keeping these larger pythons, but this is probably the wrong forum to get on my soapbox with

"VIRGINIA BEACH, Va. (WAVY.com) -- A young Navy wife is dead, strangled to death by her own pet python.

"The husband wants nothing to do with the snake, obviously," said Officer Humphrey. So for now, Animal Control Officers say they are keeping the python fed and happy with live rats."

http://www.wavy.com/global/story.asp?s=9226755&srvc=leadstory

Pictures of the snake in the link
-----
Tom

"The more people I meet, the more I like my snakes"

This is a completely avoidable tragedy. I just wish more people would consider the fact that no matter how tame you think an animal of this size is, never ever take chances and do anything with a 13' Retic without an experienced helper close by. 13' is not a large animal at all when considering Retics. I would have thought this nearly impossible, but obviously it was. My heart goes out to this lady's family.

Don't get all excited and bent out of shape that the reporter or the coroner didn't get every fact right. Maybe the length is wrong. It was a Retic, not a Boa. Those things matter not a whit. What matters is a young woman's life has ended. The exact length or species of animal does not matter to the public. Fear drives peoples response to this. Not facts.

The fact is that many people are killed each year by horses. However nobody is going to scream to outlaw horses. Horses are not the subject of the fear that snakes are.

This is just more evidence that nobody should ever ever ever ever, no matter how "puppy dog tame", ever ever ever ever allow a vulnerable person to get anywhere near any Reptile that is even remotely close to this size. It infuriates me when I see tons of people, who know better, allowing small kids around giant Retics or Burms as if it is impossible that the animal with a brain the size a pea might make a mistake one day and grab someone while doing a herp talk somewhere. This is the kind of thing that could mean the end of our passion. Please take any Reptile over 10' long very seriously and never ever do a public hands on display with anything this large. Puppy dog tame but dumb as a rock can be a recipe for someone's being in a life threatening situation. If that practice does not stop, it's only a matter of time before some 6 year old kid is grabbed and wrapped in seconds and the one, all alone handler, is doing everything he can to reverse what has happened and that child will be dead. Retics and Burms are strong enough to kill small prey in a matter of less than a minute. This is because they can actually stop the heart from beating if they get just the right wrap.

I have fed, in years past, many a Rabbit to a Burm and seen the Burm relax it's grip in just over a minute due to the Rabbit dying not from asphyxiation, but from shock when the squeeze was so tight it stopped the heart. That is reality and we all know how quickly a large animal can wrap. Oh, some with say they have a special understanding of their Retics body language. "I know what my Retic is thinking". Your Retic isn't thinking anything. It's brain is too tiny to think. It reacts instinctively. Some day, some small child who has a pet rat at home and doesn't wash his hands well is going to sit in on the wrong Herp talk and that Retic is going to get an instant sniff of food, and that's going to be it. That is going to be the end of our hobby period not to mention the very real danger those kids are absolutely in.
-----
Boaphile Home
All Original/Boaphile Plastics
The Boa Network

VIRGINIAN-PILOT (Hampton Roads, Virginia) 23 October 08 Pet python blamed in Virginia Beach woman's strangulation (Shawn Day)
Virginia Beach: "Medicate Diablo."
The message, scrawled on a whiteboard, referred to Amanda Ruth Black's pet python. A few feet away, its container was empty. On the floor, Black, 25, lay dead.
Black's husband had returned to their townhouse, on Maracas Arch in the Witchduck Woods area, late Tuesday night and called police after finding his wife's body, police spokesman Adam Bernstein said.
A preliminary autopsy showed that Black died of asphyxiation by neck compression. The 13-foot-long tiger reticulated python apparently overpowered her as she tried to administer medication to it, Bernstein said.
Animal Control Officer Doug Humphrey noticed the whiteboard message when he responded to the call. He scanned the den, then checked a closet, hallway and bathroom. No sign of the missing snake.
He returned to the den and stepped toward a cage holding a 10-foot boa constrictor. Then Humphrey spotted a slender, black and yellowish tail poking out from between the wall and the cage.
He reached down, took hold and pulled the tail. The python pushed forward.
"Every time I pulled him," Humphrey recalled Thursday, "he'd pull away."
The medical examiner, who had been tending to Black, came to Humphrey's side, and the two men managed to drag the snake back to its glass container.
It was taken to the city's Animal Control facility on Leroy Road, where it was being held Thursday as evidence while detectives continued their investigation.
Black's death is classified as suspicious, but Bernstein said investigators had found no sign of foul play.
Humphrey said Black apparently was trying to use a syringe to squirt medication into Diablo's mouth when it turned on her.
It wasn't clear what ailment the snake had, but Humphrey said Black's husband had told authorities "the snake did not like being given the medication, nor did he like the medication."
A man who answered the door to Black's home Thursday said relatives did not want to speak with the media. Several neighbors said they did not know the couple.
Since 1980, at least 11 people have been killed by pet pythons in the United States, according to Beth Preiss, director of the U.S. Humane Society's exotic pets campaign. Two years ago, an Ohio man was killed when his 13-foot boa constrictor coiled around his neck. A man in Indiana also died that year after a 14-foot python constricted around his upper body.
The tiger reticulated python is native to Southeast Asia and typically grows to 12 to 15 feet, said Stephanie Kokosinski, herpetology curator at the Virginia Living Museum in Newport News. People with little experience handling snakes shouldn't look to adopt those pythons, she said.
Bowen LaJesse, 31, is the reptile department manager at Animal Jungle, a Virginia Beach shop that sells exotic pets, including tiger reticulated pythons. They are born about two feet long and can reach 10 feet within the first year, he said.
The snake is generally more docile than other types of reticulated pythons. However, they are extremely strong.
"That's all they are, one big tube of muscle," LaJesse said. Two or more experienced people are needed to handle pythons longer than eight feet, he said, particularly if medication is involved.
http://hamptonroads.com/2008/10/virginia-beach-woman-strangled-pet-python-police-believe

What a preventible tragedy. Anytime you have a large python or boa you should have a exprienced partner to help if anythng goes wrong even if nothing goes wrong 99.9% of the time.

11 deaths by pythons since 1980 is such a small number when compaired to fatalities by dogs in the US since 1979 to 1994 with 279 deaths and another 135 from 2004 to 2008 by man's most faithfull friend. Yet I still believe we should have the right to keep any animal if you can properly and positively take care of its needs, while also being resposible for its actions.

Good stats - that probably don't matter much to a government official, a representative of congress. Representatives don't necessarily go through the data, most of the time they'll just go after low hanging fruit. Banning jumbo constrictors, banning exotics - piece of cake! It'll make lots of constituents happy, very few objections.

What are we going to do now? Send letters saying don't ban my burms & retics, they're great pets! The general public and your representative in VA will think you're a lunatic, a madman. Back, only months ago, the push was to write your rep, which is part of the process, but cleaning up the house should have been the first move. How do you respond to the inevitable, real-deal, bill to ban exotics? Better have some evidence that there are some restrictions that sellers are placing on potential buyers.

Banning exotics WILL start right here with jumbo constrictors.

Shea Peterson

WTKR (Norfolk, Virginia) 23 October 08 Snake Expert Weighs In on Local Woman's Tragic Death
A snake expert reveals to NewsChannel 3 what a Virginia Beach woman's fatal mistake may have been when her pet python strangled her.
Diablo, a nearly 10-foot-long reticulated tiger python that Virginia Beach police say wrapped itself around its owner, 25-year-old Amanda Black and strangled her.
John Barnes, a reptile expert in Moyock said, what happened to Amanda is simply an accident.
Virginia beach animal control officers say they believe Amanda was trying to give the snake antibiotics for an infection when it somehow attacked her.
Police say when Amanda's husband returned home, he found her dead in an upstairs room of their home.
Barnes says in his experience what most likely happened was that Diablo probably thought Amanda was trying to feed him.
"Snakes don't see well so when you go there with food they smell it and they smell it on you and they can grab you and wrap around you instead," said Barnes.
Barnes says this freak accident is the reason why large snakes should never be handled alone.
Snake Expert Weighs In on Local Woman's Tragic Death

Certainly a terrible tragedy.
However, I'm not 100% convinced that it was the retic that killed her. The photos show a tiger retic in what appears to be a 20 gallon tank. Paper towels are used as substrate on the bottom and one paper towel more than completely covers the depth of the tank. One of the reports says the retic is nearly nine feet long. I don't think it is even that big. I can't imagine a retic that size killing an adult woman. The link given above was not correct. Here is the link to the story with the photos.
http://www.wavy.com/global/story.asp?s=9226755&srvc=leadstory%3C/b%3E
If I were the police, I would investigate further.

The link:

http://www.wavy.com/global/story.asp?s=9226755&srvc=leadstory

Ahhh, my HTML bold tags messed it up. Didnt realize that. Oops. Otherwise the link is fine.
-----
Tom

"The more people I meet, the more I like my snakes"

I completely missed that. And look at the water dish next to it. I have one of those dishes and I can't imagine a snake sizing up to it like the one in the pic killing someone.

You are making the assumption that the snake in the photo was the snake that killed her. It is more likely then not that the paper sent someone to a pet shop to get a picture of the same kind of snake. The paper reports the snake was 13 feet. It could have been 10 or it could have been 15. Now, both the woman and the snake are dead because of her lack of respect for the power of her "pet".
Woman thought killed by snake was experienced with reptiles

You didn't look at the pic if you think that might have been taken at a pet store. The caption says that it is "the snake".

If that is a 13' snake, then that isn't a 20 gal tank. Also, do you think the police are going to let reporters in to get pictures at a "crime scene"? Still, my point is that an animal and a woman are both dead because the woman did something stupid. I feel sorry for the woman's family, but she was the one at fault.

wow that is terrible my thoughts go out to her family. i dont know if tiis is the same but a few weeks to a month ago there was a girl on kingsnake classifieds posting a male tiger retic for sale about the same size also named diablo i just remembered that name mabye you can check back see if its the same. people need not be worried about a ban and should be more worried about the loss of life ,i am a retic keeper im not worried about not being able to keep my snakes im sad about such a young girls life being over so early.

This is awful.
Yes this is the same girl who posted the ad.
I inquired about "Diablo" I still have her reply on my email.
She said he was opinionated but usually a sweetheart.
For those of you who do not think a 10 foot retic can kill an adult read back 2-3 weeks.
A zoo volunteer (19 year old male) was killed in I believe Venezuala. He had bite marks on a wrist. After opening the cage (after hours) he had enough time to block his face the snake wrapped him and killed him.
This is no cover up simply a tradgedy.
To the "snake expert" who weighed in with the Norfolk television station, "you are an idiot".
There has been no mention of bite marks which means she was concerned enough about its attitude during injections that she was holding him by the head. One report mentioned medicating in the mouth which sounds more like worming. Either way she was probably holding him by the head.
THIS WAS NOT A FEEDING RESPONSE.
This was defensive.
Listen closely; big snake 101,
If a large constrictor does not like what you are doing its first
response,outside of hissing, would be to bite.
If the head is restrained and it cannot bite then its next choice is to constrict. If multiple keepers are effectivly restraining the snake its third option, (the one that is the most humiliating for a giant predator), is to release its bowels.
Once again a terrible tradgedy and as always certainly a wakeup call. D.C.

Seriously, have you looked at the photos? You need to take a look. This animal in the 20 gallon tank is not a "large constrictor".

The only pic I have seen was the one that was posted with her ad.
That was an exceptional looking tiger that looked to be about 10 feet.
She mentioned he had a fresh scar on his tail a mishap with his mate. So apparently she had at least one other retic. The story said she had several snakes.
D.C.

I saw the snake on the local news here and it was not the same one pictured in the 20 gallon aquarium. They reported it as being 10 feet and I believe it was that big.
-----
Mark Kennedy

it doesnt matter about the pics on the news the fact is she did have a 10 foot tiger male named diablo posted here on kingsnake for sale so you can forget about the news pics, if anyone on here doesnt think a 10 foot retic can kill them they shouldnt be keeping retics at all..

It seems some here have doubts that a relatively small Retic can kill someone. Let me assure you under the right circumstances they can and have. One of the earliest deaths was in the late 1970's. A close friend of mine, 32 years old, knowledgeable, and fit was working alone in his basement feeding his Retics. His wife and kids were having dinner and heard unusual noises in the basement. After calling out to him she investigated and found Doug[I won't use a last name due to respect to the family] dead with a very small Retic biting him on the face and wrapped around his neck. Subsequently I bought all of his collection including the snake that killed him. The Retic was barely 10' long and weighed under 50 lbs. This happened in Florence, Kentucky just across the river from Cincinnatti, Oh. If someone were to research the newspaper archives I'm sure you could find the story. Large potentionally dangerous herps of any kind shouldn't be kept by novice herpers for obvious reasons. This plain and simple is a tragedy for the poor woman, her family, and all of us. We simply HAVE to stop having tragic "accidents" like this one. To be honest dogs present a far more dangerous threat and loss of life but death by reptile creates tremendous BAD P.R. because its sensational and rarely happens. These incidents are used by our enemies to great advantage. Does keeping giant snakes pose a significant threat to the public at large? The answer is NO they do not BUT any incident is like pouring gas on a fire in terms of passing legislation prohibiting the keeping of these herps. I now have been in the Herp Industry for over 35 years and I've never seen the type of assaults on the industry happening now. We must ourselves in any way we can try to prevent any incident involving injuries by herps that attract media attention. ANY LARGE CONSTRICTOR 8' OR LONGER SHOULD HAVE TWO PEOPLE AT LEAST PRESENT WHEN FEEDING, MAITAINANCE, ETC IS NEEDED. RELATIVELY SMALL SNAKES HAVE THE ABILITY TO KILL HEALTHY ADULTS AND HAVE DONE SO ALBIET RARELY.....TC

Great post Tom. I remember the KY incident very well. Pete Strimple and Terry Dedden can back up the facts of the story.

Take care
Jim

I'm not a snake expert by any means necessary, but what i am is someone who knows the young lady and the snake you speak of. I've frequented the shop she worked at for many years and she was not an inexperienced owner like people make her out to be. The snake was a lil over 13ft as of Septemeber so yes it was that large. It was the first time she was trying to treat the RI by herself and it sadly cost her her life. So before some of you try to talk about what she should have done or what she did wrong, how about you have a little respect for those who knew her and her family. and if this offends you then maybe it should because it pisses me off when people are only speculating off of what they see on the news.

The important point is NOT if the picture used for an article is the exact animal that killed this young woman in the early years of her precious life. The point is NOT if it was a Tiger Retic or some other type of Retic. The point that needs to be driven home is no matter how safe you THINK your Retic is, it is NOT and to let a monster "play" with or interact with small children is NOT different that letting them pass around a load gun with the hammer cocked. No difference whatsoever.

The other greater point is this: If we will not govern ourselves when it comes to what is considered acceptable and what is not, the government WILL do it for us! Wake up!
-----
Boaphile Home
All Original/Boaphile Plastics
The Boa Network

i hope your not saying that in reply to my post because like i said the most important thing is the loss of life.. and ive kept retics for quite a while so i do understand your point they are a wild animal after all. if it has a mouth and teeth it can bite...
ps iwas saying that about the girl selling a 10' tiger retic named diablo on the classifieds because of "the tiger in the report looked small compared to the water dish" comment.
the news is wrong ALOT but they do get some things right

Jeff...your point is well taken. I'm sure we all can agree that we should never let our guard down and feel completely safe when handling large retics. You also make a very good point about public exhibitions with large pythons. Personally, I would never feel comfortable bringing one of my retics to a public place even for educational purposes. Many years ago I would visit my sisters classroom with boas, but I wouldn't feel comfortable doing that any more either. I don't like seeing anybody walking around with their pet snake draped around their shoulders. Too many people are afraid of snakes and that type of action leads us one step closer to a prohibition.

All of that said, according to this news story, the photos are of the animal that killed this woman. If this is the case, I would urge the police to investigate this more carefully. I have about 150 boas and maybe 15 retics. My adult female boas are far stronger than the tiger retic labeled as the one who killed this woman. Someone could be using the snake to cover a murder and the investigators just assume that this snake is the cause of death.

If that snake didn't do this, wouldn't it be in the best interest of the constrictor community to make sure that the truth be known?

I am sensitive to this issue right now because a very close friend lost her sister a couple of weeks ago under very suspicious circumstances. She disappeared from her apartment with no forced entry and her purse, keys, money, prescriptions all still in place in her apartment, but her sheets and comforter were missing. They found her body 12 days later, partially hanging from a tree in a very wooded area of a major city park. The owner of the funeral home, who had been a forensic specialist and had done many autopsies, said that there was no way her body was decomposed enough to be in the elements for 12 days. And...her ex-boyfriend mentioned to her daughter at the services that he was the beneficiary of her life insurance...and he originally told the police that he hadn't talked to her in many weeks, but they found his voice on her answering machine beginning to leave her a message when she picked up the phone the same night she disappeared. The police believe that she committed suicide.

My point is that sometimes the police would rather take the easy way out by believing what they see in front of them rather than doing a thorough investigation.

That small retic could not have killed an adult woman.

That is a good point but, I am very sad that this woman is dead. On that everyone agrees. Is it possible that she may been killed by a person who figured out a way to shift blame to a serpent? Sure it is. A good coroner I am sure could tell the difference between the even squeeze that a Python would inflict and the uneven pressure points that would no doubt leave marks if something other than the animal that did it.

That being said, still the greatest issue for the rest of us is this; govern ourselves, or we WILL be governed by others in regards to much more than just Retics. We will loose our right to far far more than just Retics. If your Retic is over 10' long. Leave it in it's cage unless you have a capable experienced helper right there with you. And never ever risk the lives of others because you think your Retic is puppy dog tame and you are so smart you can prophesy every action of your animal based upon it's posture. You can't.
-----
Boaphile Home
All Original/Boaphile Plastics
The Boa Network

im very sorry for the loss of your friend...
but on the shifting the blame on a serpent in this case give me a break.

The point is that Retics are not suitable pets for 99.9% of the people on the planet.

STOP BREEDING AND MARKETING INAPPROPRIATE PETS.

Those of you who are competent, compasionate keepers who choose to work with Retics must stop selling them at expos and to pet shops. I have no problem with the tiny fraction of you out there that fit this criteria working with the animals. But Stop selling them to people that don't fit this criteria.

Stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop.

I am going to start reserving a table at all the expos I can and explaining to the newbies that retics aren't good pets.

Duh.

I don't know how you folks working with Retics can keep missing this point.

You want to keep something that you can breed and sell? Fine. Try Leogex, Beardeds, Ball Pythons, Carpets, etc.

Not the big 5.

Let's see how long it is before this post gets pulled-lol.

-----
Ben Team
Mark Davis
New Paradigm Herpetoculture
Captive Bred Morelia
404-438-2135
chondro776@yahoo.com

you are 100% right, the same thing goes for venomous ive been to so many shows where i see vendors selling hots to the first kid with the money, not even asking about their expierence (im asking 150 for that albino monocle, will you take 125 yeah i guess thanks have fun kid, dont get bit) give me a f@#k#@g break ive seen this happen so many times. the same goes with tics but nobody really thinks about it there just pythons there harmless, its not like there venomous, well look what can happen. anyway you are like i said 100% right people need to screen potential buyers a little better.

What do you plan on doing with all those Coastal Carpets you'll no longer be breeding? They have the growth potential of 8-12', and really aren't suitable as pets. STOP breeding them.

C'mon, man...doesn't THAT sound rediculous?
-----
"He who would stifle debate rather than engage in it, does so at the expense of his integrity and credibility"

Mike Curtin

Hopefully, some good will come out of this tragic and preventable accident. I've been preaching self-regulation for a long time. Does get lonely at times. This may just be the last wake-up call there'll be.
Let's not find out.
jsc

-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

in DENMARK on this one!!!!!

Fishy...

Could it have something to do with SATAN?

>>A 10 foot Tiger Retic killed a woman in my area. The biggest snake I own is a Woma, but I can see this is probably going to cause me some grief with what I keep. I've never been favorable for people keeping these larger pythons, but this is probably the wrong forum to get on my soapbox with
>>
>>"VIRGINIA BEACH, Va. (WAVY.com) -- A young Navy wife is dead, strangled to death by her own pet python.
>>
>>Police say the woman's husband came home Tuesday night and found his wife, 25-year-old Amanda Black, dead on the floor and the snake, a 10 foot reticulated Tiger Python named Diablo, was missing.
>>
>>Animal control officers responded to the townhouse off Witchduck Road and found the snake hiding behind another snake pen with a Boa Constrictor in it, only a few feet away from the body of the owner it had just suffocated.
>>
>>"What I saw first was the victim lying on the floor next to the empty snake pen," said Animal Control Officer Douglas Humphrey.
>>
>>Police tell us the snake had an infection and Amanda was trying to give him a dose of antibiotics through a syringe, when the snake turned on her.
>>
>>"I know it's a very strong and very long snake and after a couple of twists around the neck area, it's hard to fight that off," said Officer Humphrey.
>>
>>An autopsy shows the python crushed Amanda's neck and she died of asphyxiation.
>>
>>Officer Humphrey, with help from the medical examiner who was on the scene, both wrangled the snake back into its cage.
>>
>>"The doctor grabbed the tail and I had the mid-section and I was using snake tongs on it. The snake was actually trying to strike at me and once we got him in the cage he tried to strike at the doctor through the aquarium. He was a little upset."
>>
>>The couple has several other pet snakes, including several more pythons. Police say it's legal to have snakes like that in your house.
>>
>>Right now Animal Control Officers have custody of the snake, but they say they are not sure yet what they are going to do with it.
>>
>>"The husband wants nothing to do with the snake, obviously," said Officer Humphrey. So for now, Animal Control Officers say they are keeping the python fed and happy with live rats."
>>
>>http://www.wavy.com/global/story.asp?s=9226755&srvc=leadstory
>>
>>Pictures of the snake in the link
>>-----
>>Tom
>>
>>"The more people I meet, the more I like my snakes"
-----
"Satan™" is a registered trademark of NERD, Inc. Any copyright infringement is punishable by ETERNAL DAMNATION and some other terrible stuff.

Could it have something to do with SATAN?

Is that one of your new morphs?

No....

It was a Joke like in The CHurch Lady - Saturday Night Live!!!!

SATAN

>>Could it have something to do with SATAN?
>>
>>Is that one of your new morphs?
-----
"Satan™" is a registered trademark of NERD, Inc. Any copyright infringement is punishable by ETERNAL DAMNATION and some other terrible stuff.

VIRGINIAN-PILOT (Hampton Roads, Virginia) 23 October 08 Woman thought killed by snake was experienced with reptiles (Shawn Day)
Virginia Beach: The woman believed to have been killed by a pet python was an experienced handler and reptile department worker at an animal shop, friends said Friday.
Amanda Ruth Black was found late Tuesday night by her husband, police said. Investigators believe the 25-year-old woman was trying to give medicine to a 13-foot-long tiger reticulated python when it wrapped itself around her neck. She died of asphyxiation, according to a preliminary autopsy.
At about 5 p.m. Friday, the python was humanely euthanized, as the woman's husband wished, said Margie Long, Virginia Beach police spokeswoman.
At Pet Paradise on Kellam Road, where Black worked, manager James Severts said Black's family had asked store employees to refrain from speaking to reporters.
Severts noted, however, that Black worked on Monday and failed to arrive for her shift Tuesday. Her husband, who is in the Navy, was at sea and didn't return home until Tuesday night, Severts said.
"I'm still trying to fathom how it happened," he said. "She knew what she was doing. She was a professional."
Authorities found Black lying in front of the snake's empty container, and an animal control officer who found the snake in the room dragged it back to its container with the help of the medical examiner. The python, named Diablo, was taken to the city's animal control facility.
Black's death remains under investigation, but police said they did not suspect foul play.
In an online forum for VIIPER, a local reptile-lovers group, members posted messages mourning Black and discussing how to care for the several snakes that she and her husband kept in their Witchduck Woods townhome.
According to one message, the snakes included a 10-foot-long Burmese python, a 12-foot-long dwarf reticulated python, a 13-year-old Mexican kingsnake and two green tree pythons.
"It is a sad day for her Hubby and the snake community," wrote Amanda Warren, the group's secretary. "Also for the snake that was involved in this as well."
Black's family has declined to be interviewed, and friends said they had been instructed by the family not to speak to the news media.
Woman thought killed by snake was experienced with reptiles

... Ooops ...

DAILY PRESS (Newport News, Virginia) 24 October 08 Calls for controls on pythons as pets after death of woman (David MacAulay)
Virginia Beach: The Humane Society of the United States has called for stricter regulations on the importation and ownership of large constrictor snakes following the death of a Virginia Beach woman who is thought to have been asphyxiated by a python Tuesday.
Amanda Ruth Black, 25, was found dead in her home on Maracas Arch around 11:30 p.m. Tuesday. Her husband called police and said he found her lying in front of the pet snake's large cage, which was empty. Police spokesman Adam Bernstein said the medical examiner's preliminary report found that the woman died from "asphyxiation caused by neck compression.""Tragedies like this can be avoided with common-sense regulations at the local, state and federal levels," said Beth Preiss, director of the exotic pets campaign for The HSUS. "To protect public health and safety, animal welfare and the environment, large constrictor snakes should not be pets."
At least 11 people have been killed by pet pythons in the United States since 1980, including men in Ohio and Indiana who were killed by their pet pythons in 2006.
The HSUS said reptiles also carry salmonella, and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention recommends keeping reptiles out of homes with children under five and people with weakened immune systems, who are most susceptible.
Virginia prohibits certain reptiles such as alligators as pets, but pythons are allowed unless the locality has a stricter rule. The HSUS has called on Virginia Beach and the state to prohibit future acquisitions and sales of large constrictor snakes and other dangerous wild animals.
Calls for controls on pythons as pets after death of woman

Please, help me understand how breeding and selling retics is good for the animals or the hobby?
-----
Ben Team
Mark Davis
New Paradigm Herpetoculture
Captive Bred Morelia
404-438-2135
chondro776@yahoo.com

Yeah they better stop... cause we know Coastal carpets can exceed 10 feet. I have a beautiful 8 foot male that under the right circumstances could kill a person as well!!!

Oh wait you are worried that if they don't ban the big 5 then Morelia will be banned with them.

I would have to agree that the big 5 are for a small percentage of the population, as long as they don't ban their ownership I would agree to stricter regs, but that is not how the gov does things as you know and are concerned for the prob ban on ALL PYTHONS.

>>Please, help me understand how breeding and selling retics is good for the animals or the hobby?
>>-----
>>Ben Team
>>Mark Davis
>>New Paradigm Herpetoculture
>>Captive Bred Morelia
>>404-438-2135
>>chondro776@yahoo.com

-----
=========================================================
Roberts Realm Of Reptile Research
=========================================================
Thanks,

I opened my mouth and out flowed a melody black.

What kinds of regulations are we talking about?

"If you own a large python over X feet long, you are not allowed to handle the animal unless a second knowledgeable person is there to assist you."

I really cant see anything like that flying at all. The only people that would get persecuted under that regulation would be the people who died from these unfortunate encounters. Otherwise, the people who had no incident with the handling would just keep quiet and no one would know.

-----
Tom

"The more people I meet, the more I like my snakes"

The simple fact is that keeping these large snakes pose no risk to anyone but the keeper unless you intentionally expose the public at large. This should NEVER be done under any circumstances period. For those that don't keep the big 5 to tell other folks they shouldn't is hypocritical at best. The bottom line is that more and more of our freedoms are being taken away slowly but surely. Accidents like this one gives the ammunition to HSUS and others to call for new restrictions. It is in all of our BEST interest to fight for our rights regardless who is affected or whether you keep Retics or not. To condemn others is like "the pot calling the kettle black" and is not helpful but promotes dissent from within. A great military strategy is to divide and conquer. Please lets turn our attentions to fighting any new harmful regs. and not attack each other....TC

The Fact is more retics are being produced now than ever before, I personally think that more are being produced than there are people who can or are qualified to keep them.

The fact is our hobby is not in danger of being regulated by State or Local levels becuase of Cornsnakes, or Carpet Pythons, Its because of things like Burmese, Crocadilians, and RETICS.

It sucks that this is the truth, but it is. I am all for peoples right to do what they want, but when it comes to the point where I feel like reticulated pythons are being over produced and getting into the wrong hands, and it might cause me to loose my rights to keep and breed Ball Pythons and Morelia Pythons, then Yeah, I will go on the offensive and push Reticulated Python breeders to really take a look at how much self control they have. Is it really nessecesary to produce hundreds if not thousands of Retics a year? How are you making sure they are not getting to the wrong hands?

When given the oppertunity to do what they want, humans will do just that, no matter what the cost, All I am asking for is for some Self Control when it comes to breeding these large snakes. I would rather push these retic breeders to self regulate, before someone regulates this hobby for us, and it might include my snakes who don't pose a danger. I would rather push Herpetoculturist to Herpetoculturist to try and get them to see the bigger picture, rather than sit back and say nothing and watch my hobby be shut down by outside sources, weither thats local, State, or Federal....

I think retics are expereincing the same thing Burmese Pythons did back in the day, some new morphs where presented, and the amount of people breeding Retics blew up, and Ask anyone with a Reptile Rescue how they like dealing with Burmese Pythons....Or say Iguanas...Tom?...lol
-----
Executive Reptiles
Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick
www.executivereptiles.com

And responding to your reply about how Ben Team shouldn't say or give his opinion as a fellow Herpetoculturist, cause he doesn't own a big 5...well I DO OWN A BIG 5....But I do NOT Breed any Big 5, Will never either, but I do Own one, I am responsible, but I do breed Morelia, And if my hobby is shut down becuase to many Retics are being produced and ending up in the wrong hands....well I am going to blame the Retic Breeders....just the same as the person who got hurt or Killed.

Very few people are able to keep these Reticulated Pythons...thats a Fact....they get Much larger on average than a Burmese Python, which most people aren't able to keep either.

I care about my hobby, and if we as herpetoculturists don't stop and see the mess we are creating, then we have nobody to blame but ourselves. Stop breeding retics and Burmese and letting them get into the wrong hands...its simple...but nobody seems to have self control, they do what they want at whatever the cost. And if we don't regulate ourselves, then someone will for us.
-----
Executive Reptiles
Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick
www.executivereptiles.com

This is NOT about just Retics or the big 5. It's about the HSUS stopping any and all wildlife being kept in captivity. Amanda talks about "rescues" and how they feel about Burms, Retics, and yes even Iguanas well what about the number of cats and dogs that are rescued. Should we NOT be allowed to have a pet cat because there are a lot of cats without a home? Don't all of us have the understanding that this was an accident albiet a tragic one. I bet over 100 people were killed in car wrecks yesterday. Do we outlaw cars? An accident such as this one is extremely RARE and should not be used as an example why folks shouldn't have Retics or anything else. It is being blown out of proportion by the HSUS propaganda machine and believe me its NOT just Retics or the big 5 they would like to prohibit possession of. Again lets STOP pointing fingers and give our positive attention counteracting the real enenmy. The Herp Industry reminds me sometimes of the POGO COMIC STRIP. "I have met the enemy and it is us". Wake up and see the "big picture" before its too late. The HSUS doesn't want you to have a Corn Snake anymore than they do a Retic. Non possession of any and all wildlife is their goal.....TC

Ok...so here is another example, there are dog people out there that love dogs as much as we love reptiles, and just like reptiles there are certain dogs that make better "pets" than others.

Take for example probably the most talked about, headline news grabbing dog of all...the infamous PIT BULL....ok to some people they are the greatest dogs in the world, but guess what, there are many people out there that have them that shouldn't, and yet again, to many are being bred and are ending up in the wrong hands. For me, if I owned a pit bull, I wouldn't want to be associated with those people who chain thier pitbulls outside thier house, or train them to attack anyone that comes near them, many people say having a pit bull like that is a loaded gun, I on the other hand have seem more loving and sweet pitbulls than mean ones, but does that stop cities and counties in certain areas from placing a ban on them....NO...So guess what, someone like me who has a Golden Retrevier x Pitbull that was resuced from the pound is the most loving dog ever, I could be at risk of having my dog taken away cause too many pit bulls have been bred and put into the wrong hands.

I understand this mentality of lets all unite and stick together, but guess what I am not working with anything that could pose a danger to anyone, I have self control, and even though I would love to work with say a Rhino Viper, or Gaboon Viper, I choose not too.

I am not saying people should work with them, I am just saying, that I think there are too many being produced...thats all, I think some of the retic morphs are some of the most beautiful morphs out there, but I also feel that too many of them are being produced and getting into the wrong hands, just like many venomous do.

Its just a hard reality that some species just shouldn't be kept or bred to the extent they are being kept and bred, I think there are MANY people who keep Retics and Burmese right now that shouldn't. I just wish more keepers and breeders where more responsible with thier own hobby...and this mentality of people can do what they want...well I would rather confront and push Retic breeders to be as responsible as they can, I don't see why trying to regulate ourselves is that big of an issue, I am not trying to attack Retic Breeders, I am just trying to get them to be more responsible, cause these people are getting retics from somewhere, it goes to wholesalers, importers, anyone dealing with retics or burmese.

All I am asking is that people working with certain species that have posed problems in the past, present and maybe future, to be more proactive in trying to curb letting these Retics get into the wrong hands, thats all.

I only breed Morelia and Ball Pythons, but I still question the people who pruchase snakes from me, I want anything I produce to go to responsible people, I have refused sales many times, cause I feel the snakes I produce deserve to be in proper hands.

And don't fool yourself, if we as herpetoculturists don't regulate ourselves someone will do it for us, its only a matter of time. And if this hobby does get regulated, we only have ourselves to blame for it....we make this hobby...we promote it, we supply the animals, we get people interested....this is a community, and if certain species are causing problems like Burmese and Retics, then we need to push those that work with them to be careful who they sell them too, and how many they produce....this hobby only has so many people that are willing or able to care for such a large snake.

Again...I am not saying people shouldn't work with them, just be more responsible...in breeding and selling these potentially problematic pets....
-----
Executive Reptiles
Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick
www.executivereptiles.com

I did this the other day, if your bored, go to the Kingsnake "Python" Classifieds, and count how many ads are for Retics or Burmese....and compair and then count how many "Non-Retic or Burm" ads there are....you will be shocked at how many are for sale....

I counted 95 retic ads the other day....95.. I can't even think of that many people that are willing or able to keep a retic....Thats just whats being advertised here on Kingsnake...thats not 95 individual specimens for sale either....Some ads where for multiple specimens....

The point is...there are only so many people that can or are willing to work with Retics...and to me there are too many people who THINK they are willing and able...but find out they aren't.

To me there are way to many being produced, and when too many are produced, the chances of them getting into the wrong hands goes up.

Go for yourself...check it out...Go to the classifieds...and specifically look for Retic Ads...and count how many you see...compaired to other pythons...It was eye opening for me..
-----
Executive Reptiles
Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick
www.executivereptiles.com

Believe me when I say "I'm not fooling myself". Yesterday I drove over 500 miles round trip and got home at 2 a.m. this morning attending a meeting rgarding HR6311. That is a new extremely dangerous bill sitting in the Natural Resources Commitee of the House of Representives that if passed will change forever this industry and possibly affect even folks breeding things like Ball Pythons. We need to unite NOT fight. I have been actively involved in this industry over 35 years and we are now being attacked at every level. You are right people have these snakes that shoudn't, pit bulls that shouldn't, but also have drivers liscenses that shouldn't etc. etc. We don't outlaw driving cars because some folks drive drunk. We take their drivers liscense away NOT everyones. Again this was a tragic, avoidable accident that shouldn't have happened but it did. Peter Tosh once sang a great Reggae song called " If You Live In A Glass House You Don't Throw Stones". Please lets band together....TC

Sorry, but it is too little too late.

Retics/Burms/etc must be stopped. That is the best thing we can do to help provent over reaching legislation.

We must regulate ourselves. You burm/retic breeders have ignored the facts entirely too long simply because you were making money.

I have still not heard anyone Justify retics being good captives....

And inceidently, 35 years in 'the industry' means you have 35 years of responsibility. I have been 'in the industry' for a little less than 15 years, and every single time it has come up I have advocated AGAINST the keeping of inappropriate herps like these.

Again....just too little too late.
-----
Ben Team
Mark Davis
New Paradigm Herpetoculture
Captive Bred Morelia
404-438-2135
chondro776@yahoo.com

Look I don't have and do NOT breed any big Pythons for many years. In fact I rarely even sell one unless its a monster big one or something of that nature. I think everyone or at least a few are missing the point. Its NOT going to stop with big pythons. That is only the beginning. Mark my words. Cave in without a fight and Corn Snakes are next along with everything else. I HAVE NO STAKE IN THE BIG PYTHON ISSUE AT ALL EXCEPT THAT I KNOW THATS JUST THE BEGINING OF A MUCH BIGGER PROBLEM THAT WILL INCLUDE EVERYONE....I'm going to try to fight for everyones rights to the best of my ability.....TC

I understand your point, but the keepers/breeders of these large animals have done NOTHING to rectify the problem.

It is time to move forward for the remainder of the community.
-----
Ben Team
Mark Davis
New Paradigm Herpetoculture
Captive Bred Morelia
404-438-2135
chondro776@yahoo.com

Have you not been reading my posts and others? This is NOT just a big snake problem. GET THAT THRU YOUR HEAD. It's an attack on us all including you. Clean around your own back door and stop pointing fingers when apparently you don't fully understand the problem. Instead of attacking Retic breeders join PIJAC OR USARK or better still join both....TC

I totally agree with everything you, and the majority of fellow keepers are saying. I have been keeping large snakes for a little over 20 years but never bred them. And even though I do think that breeders should be a little selective when selling it is truely not the sellers responsibility. Is a gunstore responsible for what a patron does with the deer rifle they sell. No it ultimately falls onto the buyer. They need to be mature enough to look at themselves honastly and assess their own abilities to care and handle a deadly snake. As far as anyone saying their snake (regardless of the species) is tame enough to wear around their neck and the overused phrase "dog-tame," that is crap. I have many snakes that are "friendly" but I do not own or have I ever owned and never will own a snake that I think is 100% trustworthy. These animals have very small brains that as far as I am concerned does not allow them to reason or discern right from wrong and so forth. They are entirely instinctual animals. You can learn to read their signs but they do not always give good signs. You can "condition" them but that is not learning, that is conditioning them. They are never tame and never totally trustworthy. Even with the calmest most laid back speciment care needs to be given because a sudden flash of a hand or a quick turn of the neck and you never know what can happen. And I am not simply referring to the giants, I am referring to all snakes.
I totally agree that we need to band together and fight as a united front. Stop quarreling over whose pets are more legitimate and what should be done. Unless you are a name and already recognized by the majority of people on the floor in DC the only true legitimate way for you to effectively voice your opinion is to Join PIJAC and/or USARK. They are the people that need support right now because they are the ones that will be battling the legislations up front. They are the ones that will get the bills and the bans stopped, not Ben or anyone else that is going on public forums and causing conflict amongst the keepers themselves. Do you not think that the people that are trying to stop us from being able to enjoy or hobby and for some to make a living at out hobby read these forums. You bet they do and when misguided and often times ignorant people come on here and rant like some here have they use that information, iven if it is misleading or misinformed and utilize it to build their cases. Everyone needs to join together and stand strong.
Tom, can you post any information you have about PIJAC and USARK. Websites and how to join. I am sorry this is so long, but this incident is very close to me andi feel the immediate reprocussions everyday. Hearing the crazy babblings of some and the constant arguing and "trolling" I had finally had enough and wanted to chime in a bit in support of our hobby and to urge everyone to support or only real defense, PIJAC and USARK. Todd

That first paragraph is very insightful. Something all reptile owners should learn and know verbatim.
jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

It is about time someone mentioned PJAC and USARK. I am the vice pres of NCARK and got invoved because of the big picture. That big picture is we all better ban together and quit bickering or there will be nothing left of the hobby that all of us love. Every body should look up USARK and PJAC get involved. These organizations will be on the front lines nation wide protecting your rights to keep and breed the reptiles you love. GET INVOLVED OR WE WILL HAVE NOTHING TO BE INVOVED IN!

Simple POINT THAT WE ARE FACING!!!!!

The Govt. is looking at laws that have a broad crushing view that will eliminate what we are presently doing.

To NATIONALLY regard every Reptile and Amphibian that is non-native to a state as "Exotic".... the Govt. has been murmuring(from way high up - FACT) about the BAN OF ALL EXOTIC REPTILE & AMPHIBIANS!!!!!

This then removes many of the problems regarding enforcement and gives them MASSIVE POWER!!! They don't have to worry about identification, caging requirements....NOTHING! It will be ILLEGAL to own any of them!!!!

This means, Bearded Dragons, Red Eyed Tree Frogs, NEWTS!!!.... ALL OF IT NO LONGER BEING KEPT OR BRED!!!!!!!

So my little kiddies, this problem is VERY REAL and LOOMING! Don't think it is just the big critters that get in the news...

How about Tarantulas?? The press makes them sound terrible when they need to freak out people about them being kept as pets in little quiet towns.... a Danger to the PUBLIC!!

This stuff is truely TERRIBLE!!!!!

SATAN

>>Look I don't have and do NOT breed any big Pythons for many years. In fact I rarely even sell one unless its a monster big one or something of that nature. I think everyone or at least a few are missing the point. Its NOT going to stop with big pythons. That is only the beginning. Mark my words. Cave in without a fight and Corn Snakes are next along with everything else. I HAVE NO STAKE IN THE BIG PYTHON ISSUE AT ALL EXCEPT THAT I KNOW THATS JUST THE BEGINING OF A MUCH BIGGER PROBLEM THAT WILL INCLUDE EVERYONE....I'm going to try to fight for everyones rights to the best of my ability.....TC
-----
"Satan™" is a registered trademark of NERD, Inc. Any copyright infringement is punishable by ETERNAL DAMNATION and some other terrible stuff.

You again are missing the point.

HERP keepers are saying that Retics/Burms are not animals that should be kept.

Who cares what the Humane Society says...
-----
Ben Team
Mark Davis
New Paradigm Herpetoculture
Captive Bred Morelia
404-438-2135
chondro776@yahoo.com

NO not all herpers are saying that just you and a couple more. I've missed no point....TC

I just wanted to chime in real quick...I do not keep retics but I heard the news story and figured I would check this forum out for obvious reasons. The point is...herp keepers can say whatever they want, but the government has the final say. I cannot stress that enough. Furthermore, I do not hang out with a lot of "snake people", most of my friends have never even held a snake (until they met me of course) and I feel pretty confident that to a majority of the population a ball python is a just a python..they do not draw distinctions between which species can be deadly and which cannot. All you need is for a 5 foot retic to injure a child and there goes all of your 5 boas/pythons because now a 5 food snake is dangerous. In fact, in one of the articles I read about this tragedy it said that "pythons have become popular pets" and later said "pythons are can be dangerous." True, they did name the retic as the species involved, but the last two paragraphs were about pythons, any kind of python. I bet you can guess what part of that article the general public remembered. This also opens up the door to...who decides the magic number. To me, my 6' blood python was very manageable, big but not huge, but to my boyfriend, she was massive. He would not even come in the room when I had her out. Compared to the size of most common native snakes in the U.S. most of the boas/pythons people keep are quite large, and that is how the public views them.
Also, many statistics are grossly exaggerated or erroneously reported by the government and media..this includes how many cases of salmonella, people get from snakes, how many injuries occur from snakes, the average size of a given species..you get my point. For instance the government can say "You are 60% more likely to get salmonella if you own a snake" but that doesn't mean anything. It may just be that if you own a snake you are also 60% more likely to also own a dog,and it went outside, rolled in something dead, and brought some salmonella into your house. However, to an already stigmatized public that 60% means snakes are dangerous because they spread disease. I've seen the salmonella issue popping up more an more lately and you better believe that the government is going to play up that issue, considering that this is an already controversial area. Salmonella affects all reptiles. I actually just read that the Center for Disease control recommends not keeping snakes in the house with any children under five due to the threat of Salmonella. How many of you have children under 5 that are perfectly healthy?
I think it's important to remember that the government says what it has always said.."Listen to us." They're not telling the public to confer with snake experts or knowledgeable herpers. They do provide their own "experts" that will probably say what they are supposed to say, something bold that gets attention and plays into the controversy. Also, snakes are getting a bad rep right and people are going to remember what fits into their schema of what a snake (any snake) is, and right now that schema just says, "snakes are bad, they're dangerous."
I do agree with some of the things you're saying, I just don't think you're getting the big picture. I'm not trying to be rude, and value everyone's ideas but I'm going to stand by my opinion that this will ultimately affect everyone.

Sorry Mr. Crutchfield, but you are mistaken.

It is not hypocritical in the least. I don't even know how you came to this conclusion.

'Division' is clearly necessary. Retic/Burm breeders are selling their animals to inexperienced keepers. This is unacceptable.

My rights to keep APPROPRIATE pets is being threatened by keepers who insist on working with INAPPROPRIATE pets.

Keeping Retics on a commercial scale is bad for the animals, the keepers, and the hobby.
-----
Ben Team
Mark Davis
New Paradigm Herpetoculture
Captive Bred Morelia
404-438-2135
chondro776@yahoo.com

1st of all, I am sorry that my responses have posted all over the place. I was trying to respond to actual comments, but it didn't work out correctly.

So here is my question:
How many people have caging in excess of 8 feet long?

Seriously. I want to know.

I wouldn't think anything less than 12 feet long would even be close to appropriate.

Typical rule of thumb = cage perimeter = 2x Snakes' Length
'Typical' Retic = 14+ feet (give or take) = 28 foot cage perimeter. That would correlate to a 12 x 2 cage.

Hmm...where are all of these kids buying retics are supposed to go to get cages?

-----
Ben Team
Mark Davis
New Paradigm Herpetoculture
Captive Bred Morelia
404-438-2135
chondro776@yahoo.com

Are you saying that this 25 year old women is a "kid"?

I hear ya that people should screen buyers of retics, I am all for that..

The victim did make the mistake of handling her huge python alone (especially to try and give it meds)..

Couldn't she have waited until her husband got home? Have you watched the vid on this where they go to a guy in NC with a 10ft burm calling the incident a "freak of nature"....
-----
1.0 Het Albino Burm
1.0 Albino Ball
1.1 Pastel Balls
0.1 Spider Ball
0.2 Het Albino Balls

Seeking bigger cages for the family

I've already agreed that many people that have them shouldn't. Iagree they are sold to people who are uninformed and thats wrong. The facts are since 1980 11 people have been killed by pythons in the U.S. lOOKING AT THOSE FACTS THEY SIMPLY ARE NOT THAT SERIOUS OF A THREAT TO ANYBODY. How many people have been killed by dogs or struck by lightning in that time? What I'm trying to get across is that its the HSUS pushing this and its NOT based on real threats. In fact my statistics on deaths by pythons is from the HSUS themselves.....TC

I agree to this... I'm sure way more people are killed by horses, swimming pools, alcohol, cars, boating accidents then this...

Its just the bad PR that this gets and blows things out of proportion.
-----
1.0 Het Albino Burm
1.0 Albino Ball
1.1 Pastel Balls
0.1 Spider Ball
0.2 Het Albino Balls

Seeking bigger cages for the family

Just too much to say on the issue to put it all together.
I think its a generational thing. We've had a generation (at least) raised on the proposition these animals are "Pets". They are not pets! They are confined display animals artificially maintained in captivity. How many times to we read these animals aren't/don't make good pets? Constantly! It's all about unsubstantiated fear based ignorance and until we start getting a little more honest and realistic about what we're talking about, how can we expect the rest of society to understand where we're coming from?
You have to start speaking intelligently before you can have an intelligent discussion.

-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

" My rights to keep APPROPRIATE pets is being threatened by keepers who insist on working with INAPPROPRIATE pets. " Ben Team

APPROPRIATE in who's eyes , yours ? The same people that want to take away OUR rights to maintain large constrictors feel that your self called " APPROPRIATE pets " are also INAPPROPRIATE . That's what's not hypocritical in the least. You seem to feel that others should give up their " rights " in accordance with your beliefs in order to protect what you want . I don't agree in the least. In fact with regards to the proposed nation wide ban it's not hard to see carpet pythons much more so then any of the large constrictors being a key factor in the argument that pythons pose a serious invasive threat.

Do you really think what's happening in terms of the legislative witch hunt that being pushed by ARA groups would all go away if there are no more big snakes? I hope your also expressing your concerns about YOUR rights on the Iguana , turtle / tortoise ,venomous reptile and amphibian forums as well as any of the long list of other potentiality "harmful animals " that ARA groups have assembled .

Big snakes are the ARA groups flavor of the month right now for trying to kill off private ownership . In the mid 70`s the "injurious species act was proposed " a similar version of what we'er looking at now this was based on the importation of venomous reptiles and amphibians. Had this passed the reptile business would have been done. Reptile keepers and dealers all stuck together and beat down this piece of crap proposal. Then came the baby turtle salmonella issue. This just wasn't about banning baby turtles this was about all reptiles. Sure the headlines said baby turtles but the submitted documents had one reoccurring theme. REPTILES carry salmonella . About ten years ago came the African tick scare. This time it was about ticks spreading disease in American livestock . The short sighted only saw that they wanted to stop the importation of all African reptiles . The people who read the fine print saw that they wanted stop everything. Now it's the big snakes turn in the ARA spot light.

Private owners have been maintaining large constrictors over four decades. There has always been people keeping animals that shouldn't have them . That will never change. Nothing new there. There also are a lot of people that have these animals and take great care of them. Hopefully this will never HAVE to change.

Ernie Eison
Westwood Acres Reptile farms

Like Tom has said, we can't divide on this issue. It is important that we stand together on our rights to ownership. If we don't stand now when retics are attacked, then anacondas, then afrocks, then boas.. who will be there to stand up for you when they want to take your carpets? Why would we want some beaurocrat to decide what makes an appropriate pet? I'm sure if that happens, your carpets will not be among those VERY few is ANY species that will be allowed. The majority of the public just don't like reptiles. It doesn't matter how big or small they might be. We need to fight ANY regulations on ownership, as once they open the door to legislation against species in captivity, it will be impossible to close it. The Animal Rights Groups have millions of dollars that they use to lobby legislators, start deceitful propoganda campaigns and hire lawyers to file suits. Their goal is the annihilation of animal ownership. They don't care what species you keep, they don't want you to keep ANY. If we care about our hobby, we need to unite to fight anything that affects the community, not only when it affects us personally.

I keep and breed retics. I do so responsibly, as far as I'm concerned. I make sure that I only sell animals to people who are able to properly care for them. I make myself available to help my customers out and answer any questions they may have. I will not sell a retic to someone who has not done their research and has not owned a medium to large size boid for some time. I don't want any of the animals I produce to end up being mistreated, released or end up in a rescue because I sold one to someone who didn't realize what they were getting into.

All that being said, I don't think it is appropriate to punish everyone because there are some people who are irresponsible in who they sell animals to. I don't think that the levels of production of retics in this country is too large at all. The people that are capable of caring for retics generally keep more than 1 or 2. They are magnificent animals, and it would be detrimental to us all if they were banned from captivity here.

It seems that the only people that are hurt by these animals are the ones who keep them. Those that know the risks involved, and are willing to take those risks to keep these magnificent animals. It's unfortunate, but the fault is that of the victim. This particular accident was totally avoidable, as are the majority of the VERY RARE cases. These stories are so sensational simply because of how rarely they happen. Lets try to keep that in mind when you are advocating against a particular species. I'm sure that under the right circumstances, even a ball python wrapped around someones neck might be able to kill them. I'm sure none of us would consider banning balls because they are dangerous. Alot of reptiles are not suitable pets for alot of people. It is the consumers responsibility to know what they are getting themselves into, not the governments to dictate what is or isn't appropriate.

Those that are advocating that we stop breeding and keeping retics.. when they come for your animals, who will be left to stand up for you? These regulations hurt our hobby/industry as a whole.. just because you don't care about the particular species under attack today doesn't mean you should allow the hobby to be weakened. Please, stop this nonsense, we need to band together as herpers, not as groups by what species we keep.

I will respond in more depth later. I only have a minute right now.

I can't beleive some of the thoughts being expressed here.

They are going to come for MY animals because of YOUR animals.

Stop breeding Retics.

Funny...I still don't see any pictures of appropriate housing for Retics....
-----
Ben Team
Mark Davis
New Paradigm Herpetoculture
Captive Bred Morelia
404-438-2135
chondro776@yahoo.com

They are going to come for YOUR animals ANYWAY. Once they are done with MY animals, you think they will stop? You think they don't care about YOUR animals? They sure do. Why would you let anyone decide who can or can't keep what? It's a personal decision and should remain so. Our rights are your rights. Why can't you see that? There is such a thing as responsible breeding and keeping of retics. Just because you can't or don't want to do it doesn't mean others can't. Stand up for our rights as a whole, otherwise no one will stand up for you when it's your turn.

To put things into a real perspective and try to calm the knee-jerk hysteria being expressed here, take a second to come down from the soapbox and read this:

http://www.dogexpert.com/FatalDogAttacks/fataldogattacks.html

Then read it again.

With the irrational fear being expressed here, in MY opinion you shouldn't be allowed to keep ANY reptile for ANY reason.

What's next, my daughter's goldfish?

Bill

You are right.
Retics make great pets.

Can I see the habitat ?
-----
Ben Team
Mark Davis
New Paradigm Herpetoculture
Captive Bred Morelia
404-438-2135
chondro776@yahoo.com

proper retic housing
" alt="Image">

more proper housing for my great pets

Are those the 54" or 72" Visions?

72 x 36

Uh, yeah...those are appropriate for a snake about a 9 foot snake. Last I checked Retics get a tiny bit bigger than that.
-----
Ben Team
Mark Davis
New Paradigm Herpetoculture
Captive Bred Morelia
404-438-2135
chondro776@yahoo.com

I don't know what species you keep, but you must either not have very many or you have acres of space for your animals. Those 6 x 3 ft visions are fine for a snake up to 15ft or so. Sure, it would be nice to give them all the room they want, but that's not practical in most situations. Unless you are keeping a single JCP in something that size, I don't think you have much room to berate another keeper on what is appropriate housing.

The accepted practice for alot of keepers of retics is 1 square foot of cage space per square foot of snake. Unless you happen to live in FL, where they have some outlandish ideas on what is appropriate housing, though most of the keepers of retics in FL I know (lived in S FL for the first 27 years of my life), keep their retics in visions and AP cages just like the ones above.

I make most of my cages, so I can make them to my own specifications, and they are alot cheaper than buying a prefab cage of the same size. My adult females are in 8 ft x 3 ft cages. They have plenty of space and come out to stretch and check things out a couple times a week at least. Males I keep in 4 x 2 or 6 x 3's depending on their size. They also come out fairly frequently. My babies I keep in vision 221's or sterilite tubs based on how big they are and how much space or empty cages I have.

I also don't see what appropriate housing has to do with your argument that we shouldn't keep retics. I have told you the dimensions of my cages for your curiosity's sake alone. The fact of the matter is, there are people that are capable of properly caring for retics and have done so successfully for many years. It seems that there are probably more capable people properly caring for retics than you want to believe exist. There really aren't that many retic breeders out there. Nowhere close to the numbers of balls and boas being produced on a yearly basis. There are LOTS of people who are not capable of properly caring for those species as well, but I don't see you advocating the reduction of their production, or even completely stopping the breeding of them as you are here with retics.

This whole thing has sprung from an unfortunate, but completely preventable accident. We need to be educating people as a group of herpers that these things DO NOT happen often. That more people are killed by horses than captive snakes. If people see herpers advocating against keeping these species, it will just inflame their irrational thinking, and ask government to place bans or restrictions on these animals. It's true that we should all be as responsible as possible and try to prevent these things from happening at all, but when they do happen, let those responsible for the decision to keep the animal deal with the consecuences of their mistake, not keepers as a whole.

Are you kidding me?
What are those, 8 feet long?
I think they would make pretty good housing for some animals like BRBs, etc.
-----
Ben Team
Mark Davis
New Paradigm Herpetoculture
Captive Bred Morelia
404-438-2135
chondro776@yahoo.com

Neodeshas.....Nice cages. WIsh they still made them. I use them for my BPs.

I agree on the manufacturer...but you don't use those to house adult retics do you?
-----
Ben Team
Mark Davis
New Paradigm Herpetoculture
Captive Bred Morelia
404-438-2135
chondro776@yahoo.com

No I don`t have Retics. Just Ball Pythons. The guy that started me in snakes used Neodesha cages exclusively. He had some 12-15 ft Retics he kept in the 72 inch Neodeshas. Retics are beautiful to look at but far above my limits as a keeper.

I don't think so...lol.

What are those cage dimensions?
-----
Ben Team
Mark Davis
New Paradigm Herpetoculture
Captive Bred Morelia
404-438-2135
chondro776@yahoo.com

Ben, with all due respect, I'd like to go back to my earlier post that stated "these are not pets". I sure hope you don't consider Chondros as pets. You can't carry them around like a ratsnake, kingsnake, boa, or python. They are as delicate as any snake in the trade. About half of them in existence would bite your face off, given the chance.
Why do you keep Chondros then? Could it be the challenge? Could it be just to view and observe, in that nicely decked out vivarium? It's living art for Christ's sake. It gets the gray matter working. It's the intersection/apex of art and science.
Marketing these animals as pets has been good for the business, but it has ill served the animals.
When I was a young impressionable child and I saw these animals at the Houston Zoo Reptile House, no one ever told me they were pets. I didn't go to the Houston Zoo Pet House, I went to the Reptile House.
I'll say it again -- we need to get real on this. Appropriate and inappropriate just doesn't help the issue, in my opinion.
jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Green Trees are not the species that are posing a threat to our hobby...

If it where Green Trees biting kids, people, escaping, in rescues, getting loose, then yeah, I would be pressuring green tree breeders to be more careful who and how many they produce. But thats not the case...

I am all for Herpetoculturists rights, that is exactly why I want to make it a point to these Retic breeder that they should really take a second and think, do I really need to produce so many? Thousands of Retics are produced a year, and the numbers have been increasing exponetially since the arrival of all the new morphs. I understand the desire to have projects, and goals of producing morphs, but I was told one breeder produces anywhere from 15-20 clutches...and say for example purposes each clutch was an average of 30 eggs...thats upwards of 600 retics, from just one breeder....

If Retics and Burmese are the species that have the governments crosshairs on them, don't you think it would be a smart thing to limit the clutches that are produced? I see lots of promotional pics of cool morphs, but not a whole lot in the way of being outspokin about how they are not for everyone....Many breeders seem occupied in promoting the next new morph, or making it sound as though retics could be for everyone...but the fact is they are not for everyone...Hence the problems we keep seeing over and over with headline news stuff.

Heaven forbid a fellow herpetoculturist try and convince or push or even mention the notion of Retic breeders limiting the number of offspring they produce, or taking extra steps to make sure thier offspring they produce don't get into the wrong hands. Far to often I see this lets unite and be one, well its hard to be one with people who don't return the feeling. If our hobby is banned, it will be because of Retics and Burmese, not because of Chondros....I would like to see more retic keepers and breeders spreading the word, and taking action for themselves, Once I start seeing more Retic Breeders taking matters to the next level, then I will start supporting them.

This attitude of I can do what I want no matter what the cost to the herpetoculture, and expecting the support of other herpetoculturists is down right insane....why should we support them? If they can't self regulate themselves, and start acting like responsible herpetoculturists...then they won't have my support...
-----
Executive Reptiles
Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick
www.executivereptiles.com

The fact is GPT'S and many other snakes can pose serious health issues, again, mostly to their owners. I personally know a BIG Breeder of Ball Pythons and many other herps who was bitten on the hand by an adult GPT and it took 17 stiches to close the wound. In fact he was a former employee of my company back in the day. If that same 4-5' snake had bitten him in the face or a child he could have been blinded. The point is ALL these herps have downsides but again we need to stick together not attack each other. I THINK NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO DECIDE WHAT SOMEONE SHOULD KEEP. ANYONE THAT TRUELY BELIEVES THEY HAVE THE RIGHT TO MAKE SELECTIVE DECISIONS OVER WHAT THEIR PEERS CHOOSE TO LIKE AND KEEP ARE IN THE WRONG INDUSTRY. IT IS ALSO CLEAR, THANK GOODNESS, THAT FOLKS WITH THAT THINKING ARE IN FACT A MINORITY FACTION IN THE FIRST PLACE. THE FEW OF YOU THAT ARE MAKING THESE STATEMENTS SHOULD PERHAPS TAKE UP A HOBBY LIKE MARTIAL ATRS OR BOXING. IN THOSE GROUPS ITS PERFECTLY ACCEPTABLE TO FORCE YOUR WILL ON OTHERS. IN MOST HOBBIES IT IS NOT.....TC

Right on the money.

B.

By the way if that GPT had bitten a child the public clamour would be to pass laws to prevent people from possession. How would you feel if the Retic people then turned on you? Once again "unite not fight"....TC

You of all people should know the differences between a Reticulated Python and a Green Tree Python...or Ball Python for that matter. There is a HUGE difference....

I disagree that they are ALL dangerous....I don't think they are, I would consider a Reticulated Python MUCH more dangerous than a Green Tree Python...

If Green Trees where say "Venomous" and they where massively popular, and had a bunch of morphs, and could easily be purchased at shows, Online, ect...and they where making headline news, your darn right I would be pushing Green Tree Owners and Keepers to be extra vigilant, and extra responsible. Why is that a bad thing to ask for? All I am asking is for those Retic Breeders to go above and beyond the call to make sure thier offspring don't end up in the wrong hands...why is that such a bad thing to ask for? Its Retics and Burmese that are being focused on by the Fed and State Government....So I feel those who work with them, need to really think about how many they produce...why is that a bad thing to ask for?

You can't deny the fact that more retics are being produced now than any other time in history....and you can't deny that they are marketed as cool and awsome...while that might be...they are still not for everyone...

We will see in the next few years how many Retics are trying to be sold at yearling age...heck...check out the classifieds now, how many 07' or even 06' retics do you see...People who saw all the cool morphs posted, and at shows, and bought one of those $300 Albino Retics...and after a year...they realize its not for them...now what do you do with a 9 foot Retic?
-----
Executive Reptiles
Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick
www.executivereptiles.com

Of course a Retic is more dangerous than a GPT. Personally I don't consider either a serious health risk with people with commen sense and just a smigeon of knowlege. However every herp show has some moron walking around with a snake around his neck. Many times I've seen GPT'S carried as well mostly like the folks who carry boas, burms, and the like. If that GPT bit someones child in the face it would create a media feeding frenzy. My npoint is its NOT just people that keep Retics that do stupid things. Any industry has its share of morons. The point is that this was a TRAGIC ACCIDENT and nothing more. The same thing involving somewhat serious wounds etc could be caused by a plethora of species. The fact, ONCE AGAIN, is that this is a time for working together not finger pointing. Should you produce less GPT'S so people can't wear them in public. The fact is it wouldn't make a whit of difference either way. All of this is a moot point. It's the HSUS that is the enemie not someone who breeds Retics....TC

15 to 20 clutches of retics per breeder? I can tell you 3 breeders in the US that might come close to that. And they have 100 retics. Retics are not easy to breed.

I do think that chondros are appropriate. Again, I don't have a lot of time at the moment to fully respond. I have though, already set aside tonight to address this more fully.

For the moment...

Yes, I think that chondros are a very nice subject for the domestic habitat. I beleive you are uninformed about them.
'Half of them will rip your face off' is utter nonsense. I have ONE adult chondro that is not 'throw around your neck tame'.

Let me ask you this...how often do you hold a pet goldfish?

Retics and Burms are too large to be appropriate for 99% of private keepers.
-----
Ben Team
Mark Davis
New Paradigm Herpetoculture
Captive Bred Morelia
404-438-2135
chondro776@yahoo.com

probably one of the most knowledgable people on this board. His wealth of experience dealing with herps is probably unmatched by 99.9% of the posters on this or any other reptile board. When he speaks, you better darn well listen. In my opinion, his words count far more than just about anyone who has posted on this thread so far. And he's right...it will start with big snakes, then trickle down to anything "exotic"....then anything from another state.

You have more chance of getting salmonela from a church chicken dinner then from a snake.
-----
1.1 Blackheaded pythons
2.4 Woma
4.2 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
2.2 Bloods
2.2 IJ Carpets
1.1 Coastal Carpets
1.3 Macklotts
1.2 F2 Carpondros
2.0 Jungle Carpet
0.1 Carpondro
1.1 Brazilian Rainbow boas
1.1 Striped Bolivian Boas
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

" Let me ask you this...how often do you hold a pet goldfish? " Ben Team

If that's your point of contention then let me ask you. Does a pet gold fish wildly lunge out of it's inclosure at you when you feed it. Like say a ...........CARPERT PYTHON does ? If the point is snakes are for viewing and not handling this can be discounted by the fact that you must handle snakes in the course of routine husbandry. There's really not a comparison.

When you say burms and retics are are too large to be appropriate for 99% of private keepers. What is the method you used to derive at this number. Personal estimation , statistical survey results maybe you came to that conclusion via some sort of fractional dimension equation ? Also what's your personal background in working with these animals ? Have you ever kept and bred any large constrictors ? How about that estimated 1% should they be forced to give up their animals in your opinion ?

Your arguments sound no different then those of coming from any other anti ownership point of view .

It's ridiculous to make compressions such as dogs are more dangerous then retics and cars kill more people then goldfish. debating from the two wrongs making a right perspective is silly. What is relevant is to try maintain the rights to individual ownership. This not achieved by discounting the rights of others based on personal bias.

Ernie Eison
Westwood Acres Reptile Farms

Thank you for this post. I tried to make a similar point, though I don't think it was anywhere near as clear and concise as this. We need to maintain private ownership rights at all costs. It's not just about one species, it's about our rights as citizens to make our own decisions and not have the government interfere.

jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

You unbelievably missed my point entirely.
Point being -- Chondros are too delicate an animal to be dragged around like a pet. The least bit of stress throws them into a funk. Then they die. They're like the Orchid of snakes.
The other point being, they are a challenge. They are a challenge in so many ways, but they are not a pet, just as the goldfish is not a pet. The goldfish isn't much of a challenge, though.
Hey, I'm all for getting rid of all the Ball Pythons in the trade. I personally don't care for them. However, personal taste is not a legislative option.
Your neophite zeal is showing. That's for sure.
jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

All,

The scary thing is, this is my neighbor. Although I never knew the woman and her husband, I was well aware that they kept large pythons. The husband would usually take this particular retic out when he was washing his car, and place it in a kiddie pool. I never saw any of the other contrictors they had, just the retic that also happened to kill his beloved wife. Litterally, I can throw a rock and probably hit their garage door.

Talk about a horribe incident "hitting home."

Regards,
-----
Vic Martino
Martino Reptiles
(917) 364-6010
www.martinoreptiles.com

"The husband would usually take this particular retic out when he was washing his car, and place it in a kiddie pool. "

Enough said. Are you kidding me?
-----
Ben Team
Mark Davis
New Paradigm Herpetoculture
Captive Bred Morelia
404-438-2135
chondro776@yahoo.com

No kidding. I can't say that I agree with taking out a 13' Retic in this manner, but certainly that was his choice. It is truly a tragedy what happened, I can only imagine what this poor gentleman is going through...
-----
Vic Martino
Martino Reptiles
(917) 364-6010
www.martinoreptiles.com

I had just talked to Amanda for about an hour
at her work, Pet Paradise, two weekends before this tragic accident. To all the people that have their armchair theories and long distance ideas of foul play, you can go back to watching re-runs of C.S.I. now. There are many facts that Amanda's husband and friends at work feel are not necessary for the world at large, to know. I'm very sure if the Va. Bch. Police Dept. felt that there was any other cause of death
they would be investigating it. I've only talked to Amanda
a few times, but, like most of us on Kingsnake.com, she was very passionate about reptiles. I've never met her husband, but having a wife, that supports my hobby, and three kids, I can only imagine the heart ache and pain that he is going through.
Both my wife and Amanda's husband serve in our Armed Forces.
I could not imagine coming home from three days at sea to find my wife taken by such a tragic accident. I don't even know her husbands name, but man, I just can't imagine what you are going through! I just hope that someday you may find the joy that you had while Amanda was here with you, again! I'm friends with James and Josh at her work, and I know that this has definitely
touched them as well. I've always asked that when I go, that I go doing what I love! I think that this prayer was answered
for Amanda! Rest in peace Amanda, you will be missed!
-Phil Patton
-----
Work is the curse
of the drinking class!

I am reading a lot of people's writing saying that the Big 5 are getting in the hands of the wrong people. Now this may be true, but by all accounts, the victim had some inkling of what she was doing.
I am also reading people in denial that the snake was too small and there must be some other explanation. The coroner should be able to determine one way or another, but usually the simplest explanation is the best. In all probability, it was the retic. Even "small" constrictors can be freakishly strong.
Both of which amount to blaming the victim. Though I do not wish to speak ill of the dead, anyone experienced with animals know that the ultimate safety responsibility lies with the keeper. We do not blame a snake for biting; indeed, we expect the snake to act like a snake.
The victim made a mistake. We have all made mistakes with our animals. I remember one time I slid the door to a lizard cage and create a 6" gap. The beardie inside flew from the far end of the cage, out the gap, and since the cage was some 6' in the air, the dragon ended up 15' across the room before I knew what had happened. No harm to anyone, no foul, but the point is that the lizard reacted in an unexpected way and I did not have the reaction time to prevent my airborne dragon .
In this regards, the Big 5 are worse than venomous animals. Most venomous animals will bite you once, maybe twice or more, but typically the victim has a chance to seek medical attention. Sure, there are cases of people dying within minutes of envenomation, but most are able to make it to the hospital. If one of the Big 5 grabs ahold of you and you are alone, your chances of making it out of the wrap alive are slim at best. With venomous or the Big 5, it only takes one mistake for it to be lethal.
Honestly, ask yourself, who among us hasn't made a mistake with their animals that ended up causing some injury either to the keeper or the animal? With the Big 5 and venomous, that mistake could have been your last.
Let's not, at this moment, worry about the press or potential regulations. Rather, let's redouble our efforts to keep all parties involved (human and otherwise) safe and healthy.

Zach

The LAST thing I need is for some state or federal 'bean counter', to tell me I can't keep, or sell any babies produced by my own Retic.
Please don't get me wrong on this..... I have no plans for keeping ANY of the 'Big Five' anytime within my lifetime. I know my own limits, and understand that I just can't properly handle a constrictor that grows that big!
So, even though I personally made what I thought was a responsible decision...... My own Python Reticulatus,
- Super Dwarf -
may one day possibly be at risk, because of sensational, unfortunate issues like this occurring within all of the Retic species?
That really sucks bad, man.......