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New/Old - True/ False Genetics on Bulls?

Atlas511 Oct 28, 2008 03:55 PM

NO FIGHTING JUST A QUESTION

Here the old school...
snow = albino whitesided
ghost = hypo whitesided
hybino = hypo albino
hypo whitesided albino = ???
where does the Axanthic come into play?
I know the whole ordeal with TRUE ghost got out of hand ( I think they are a true ghosts and bad@ss..) But will that change the genetics to:

Snow = Axanthic albino? has it been done? True Snow?
Ghost = Axanthic Hypo = true ghost
are the old ghost just going to be what they are ie. Hypo Whitesided?
and are the old snows going to be albino whitesided?

I dont want to start a fight but I am boared at work and just pondering......

Replies (9)

shannon brown Oct 28, 2008 07:06 PM

I never got in on the last thread but I can see both sides.

I would just call them what they are.If they are albino whiteside's then call them that and put "snow" after it.Or something of that nature.

The whole true term won't ever really go over as its to late man.Like somebody had said look at the granite corns.When I see granite corn I still think of Boyd's fl.keys corn from the early 90's....

Anyway,the axanthic gene was produced by a gravid snake from Miami County Kansas by Mark Hienrick.And yes, it changes what the snake looks like compared to a whiteside.Thats why you see the term true because most ghosts in the hobby across the board are a anery or axanthic and a hypo and the whiteside is neither a anery or axanthic although its very close to a anery.Its the best we had at the time and the name just stuck.

I would venture to guess that a axanthic and amel double visual would be solid white ( blizzard) instead of showing yellow and patter as the anery or whiteside does.

L8r

KJUN Oct 29, 2008 05:03 AM

We also have Ballam's line of axanthism, and it may not be allelic to the Miami County line. Two lines of hypo and albino (both of which are not allelic) can't be ignored.

People who say hypo white-sided can't be called hypo whitesideds, but hypo axanthics can't just be called hypo axanthics are being a little hypocritical in my eyes. Short cutsie names or genetically descriptive names should be applied across the board following the same rules. Like Shannon mentioned, old names never die. Look at the people that still call white-sideds by the term "anerythristic" - and that hasn't been in popular use for many, many moons! hence, the confusion. "Ghost bulls" got their name because of that mistake, but snows really got their name because of the phenotype - not the genetic composition.

To me, "true ghost" will always be the FIRST ghost (genetic composition is somewhat irrelevant - look at "ghost" ball pythons) and "true snows" will always be the first snow (even though I agree it was incorrectly named - it WAS given that name!). Heck, I'm even going to start marketing hypo white-sideds and albino white-sideds that way! LOL.
KJ
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KJUN Snakehaven
Pituophis.net

shannon brown Oct 29, 2008 10:48 AM

Yes, I left out the Ballam line of axanthic.Time will tell if its compatible with the Miami County line.

L8r Shannon

DISCERN Oct 29, 2008 12:20 PM

Great post K.J., and I highly agree!
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Genesis 1:1

FL_Herps Oct 29, 2008 03:52 PM

Just to clarify (I could be wrong)...but I have a question about when you said "a axanthic and amel double visual would be solid white ( blizzard) instead of showing yellow and patter as the anery or whiteside does."

Haven't axanthanic amels/albinos already been produced by Jason Nelson, and they have purple color along pattern (called Lavender Snow)?

Also, is there even a such thing as "anery" in Pits or just axanthic?

And one more question that has been in the back of my mind...wouldn't a true "albino" (definition wise, not in terms of what people call have been calling it) be an all white snake with red eyes with no pattern, and that 99.99% of the "albinos" out there are actually amel?
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Take care,

Alex Pepper

CBB '07 1.1 Aspidites ramsayi--Woma Pythons (Don Hamper/Rare Earth Stock)
CBB '08 1.1 Bothrochilus boa--Bismarck Ringed Pythons (Tom Keogan Line High Contrast)
CBB '07 1.0 Heterodon simus--High Red Southern Hognose Snake (Tom Pinson Line Red)
CBB '07 1.1 Pituophis catenifer sayi--Marathon, Texas Out-crossed Stillwater Hypomelanistic Bull Snakes
CBB '08 1.1 Pituophis melanoleucus lodingi--Black Pine Snakes (John Ginter Stock)
CBB '06 & '08 1.1 Eublepharis macularius--Blazing Blizzard & Reverse Stripe Tangerine Albino Leopard Geckos "Blaze" & "Angie"
CBB '02 0.1 Hemitheconyx caudicinctus--Stiped African Fat-tailed Gecko "Smeagol"
CBB '03 0.1 Canis domesticus--Cocker Spaniel "Cupcake"
CBB '99 0.1 Canis domesticus--Yellow Labrador Retriever "Freckles"

Happy Herping!

KJUN Oct 30, 2008 06:31 AM

>>Haven't axanthanic amels/albinos already been produced by Jason Nelson, and they have purple color along pattern (called Lavender Snow)?

I believe that he meant a triple homozygous animal: Trumbower-albino, Amarillo-albino, and axanthic. Nelson termed them lavender snows (and I love that!), but Ballam's line was the first to produce this genetic combo years ago. The only really NEW combo is the stillwater-Hypo Miami-axanthic I've seen. I won't go into much detail, because as some of the you know already, there is still a lot of confusing results on the question, "Are Ballam and Miami lineages allelic or not?"

>>Also, is there even a such thing as "anery" in Pits or just axanthic?

No matter what you read, anerythrism and axanthism are pretty much the same thing. Excluding sequestering of caratonoids, xanthin and erythrin are produced by the same cells. If those cells produce more yellow and stop working, we call them axanthic. If those cells produce more red and stop working, we call them anerythristic. Obviously, this is a simplification, but if axanthism popped up with a red bull line, we'd have called them anerythristic. It didn't, though.

There are just different WAYS to obtain this general phenotype (like chartcoal/Anerythristic Type A, Lavender, etc. - all in cornsnakes) and those have different looks. by habit, we say the "bluer" ones are anerythristic and the "browner" ones are axanthic, but that isn't biochemically true. Like the term "true," it is an incorrect use of the terms, but it may or may not mean something to average Joes. It's like "Pilot snake." Herpers know that is a meaningless, confusing, term, but lots of rednecks use it and it means something (confusingly) to THEM.

>>And one more question that has been in the back of my mind...wouldn't a true "albino" (definition wise, not in terms of what people call have been calling it) be an all white snake with red eyes with no pattern, and that 99.99% of the "albinos" out there are actually amel?

Again, that is a misnomer. Amelanism MEANS albinism. In mammals, we only have one pigment: melanin. It is responsible for everything from green eyes to red hair. (Red hair is a defect altering the composition of the melanin made, of course.) Reptiles have more pigments than that, plus the use caratenoids, iridiophores, and similar methods to alter their coloration further. Anyway, that meals amelanistic mammals are white (no other pigments) but amelanistic snakes can be many other colors because they ONLY lack melanin. Amelanistic = albinism, so an albino snake can have ALL other pigments except melanin.
KJ
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KJUN Snakehaven
Pituophis.net

FL_Herps Oct 30, 2008 06:45 PM

Thank you very much for such a complete response. It was very helpful!
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Take care,

Alex Pepper

CBB '07 1.1 Aspidites ramsayi--Woma Pythons (Don Hamper/Rare Earth Stock)
CBB '08 1.1 Bothrochilus boa--Bismarck Ringed Pythons (Tom Keogan Line High Contrast)
CBB '07 1.0 Heterodon simus--High Red Southern Hognose Snake (Tom Pinson Line Red)
CBB '07 1.1 Pituophis catenifer sayi--Marathon, Texas Out-crossed Stillwater Hypomelanistic Bull Snakes
CBB '08 1.1 Pituophis melanoleucus lodingi--Black Pine Snakes (John Ginter Stock)
CBB '06 & '08 1.1 Eublepharis macularius--Blazing Blizzard & Reverse Stripe Tangerine Albino Leopard Geckos "Blaze" & "Angie"
CBB '02 0.1 Hemitheconyx caudicinctus--Stiped African Fat-tailed Gecko "Smeagol"
CBB '03 0.1 Canis domesticus--Cocker Spaniel "Cupcake"
CBB '99 0.1 Canis domesticus--Yellow Labrador Retriever "Freckles"

Happy Herping!

Jeremy Pierce Oct 31, 2008 08:04 AM

Great post KJ.

Hows the new little one? Have you settled into the great world of fatherhood? I have to tell you, my son helped me with a show this year and it was a very proud moment. Gage is 5 and he is very knowledgable about knowing names of different animal species. His favorite frog is the Pipa pipa. He had never seen one in person and one of the vendors at this show had several of them. It was awesome to see the look on the vendors face (and my sons when he saw them) when my little 5 year old was freaking out for me to look at the "Pipa pipa!". You have some fun years ahead of you with your little one for sure. Hope all is well and take care.

Jeremy

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Jeremy Pierce
Shade Tree Exotics
shade-tree-exotics@att.net

KJUN Nov 05, 2008 05:20 AM

>>Hows the new little one? Have you settled into the great world of fatherhood?

I just miss QUIET...that's all I miss......lol.
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KJUN Snakehaven
Pituophis.net

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