Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Anyone who uses the self ballasted mercury vapor spotlights.... What wattage bulb should I use in my 55 gallon aquarium 100 or 160?

Thanks,
Robert
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Great spirits have always been recieved with violent opposition by mediocre minds. Albert Einstein

It depends entirely on the temps of your house - the distance the bulb is from the basking spot, etc.

I would recomend ordering through www.reptileuv.com - they are extremely helpful, if you call them and explain your set up and ambient air temps etc they will recomend the right bulb for you.

I use a 100w Mega Ray from reptileuv in my beardies 90gallon tank - the basking spot is about 18inches from the bulb and we have relatively high ambient house temps.

You will probably only need the 100w - the 160w gets VERY hot - i use that for my Uro to get his basking spot to 130. But, if your basking spot is low or your house is cold you may need this.
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1.1 Bearded Dragons
2.2 Leopard Geckos
1.0 Uromastyx (Mali)
1.1 Corn snakes
0.1 Mexican Black Kingsnake
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake
1.0 Rosy Boa
1.1 Green Anoles
1.1 House Geckos
0.0.2 Flying Geckos
0.0.1 Red Eye Tree Frog

Thanks for the info. I was wandering if the 160 would be too much. I'll try the 100 for now. The basking spot is about 10" from the bulb I am using temporarily and the ambient temps are at 74 night and day. 130 is WAY too hot...lol... I bet you could just about heat a room of the house with that one huh....

Thanks again,
Robert
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Great spirits have always been recieved with violent opposition by mediocre minds. Albert Einstein

Basking lizard species, including Beardeds, will use and benefit from basking temps that are well over 130F. A surface temp of 130F is actually a terrific target point for an elevated basking spot.
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

130 degrees is way, way too hot for a bask for dragons. Robyn, you seem to be very knowledgable in reptile keeping practices but I doubt how much you really understand Pogona Vitticeps. Where in Australia are surface temps 130 degrees consistently? The answer is.....nowhere! Average surface temps in the summer for arid-desert areas in AU are about 40 degrees celsius = 98 degrees fahrenheit.

130 degrees = Forcing the animal to bask for very limited amount of time due to extreme heat. Raising the ambient temp of the enclosure to dangerous levels overall affecting their need to thermoregulate.

Please get a more reliable source for your information.

I am sure Robyn will reply on this thread - however, you should check out this thread:

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1611576,1611576

its from a few weeks ago and Robyn goes into a detailed description of the "evidence" so to speak, backing up her advice of offering a higher basking spot. it might answer some of your questions.

Sorry if you already read or took part in that thread, but if not - its a good one to read.
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1.1 Bearded Dragons
2.2 Leopard Geckos
1.0 Uromastyx (Mali)
1.1 Corn snakes
0.1 Mexican Black Kingsnake
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake
1.0 Rosy Boa
1.1 Green Anoles
1.1 House Geckos
0.0.2 Flying Geckos
0.0.1 Red Eye Tree Frog

I can create a temp gradient of 84F-130F in a 10 gallon tank, using an elevated basking spot, and it gets easier as you get a larger cage, there is no problem with ambient temps, as long as you understand what you are doing.

I would rather see keepers learn how to accomplish that rather than hear from someone who doesn't understand it that it is "impossible".

There is a thread in the monitor forum about a keeper using a temp gun for surface temps in NEW JERSEY and pulling 190F temps. It does INDEED get that hot in Oz, and certainly on basking surfaces.

I have seen many lizard species, including Beardeds, using temps in excess of 130F.

I am talking about modern husbandry of 2008, not 1995 : )
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

Hey Mim, I did take part in that thread infact I tried to pursuade Robyn to use less CAPS when trying give some advice.

A few notes - I have owned bearded dragons for the better part of ten years and have experience working with many reptile species. Popular C-B reptiles' ancestries come from different parts of the world with varied climates. In captivity, is our main goal not to provide them the best care and health? Trying to accurately create their environments is a huge part of that, including temperatures they would experience in the wild. 130 degrees is way too hot for even an elevated bask for a dragon. Go ahead and try it. Record how long an adult dragon will sit in-place under 130. I'd love to hear the results. Maybe we even take a consensus here and get all the breeders and enthusiasts to provide their temps for a dragon bask site and average them out. I'm willing to wage that the average is somewhere around 100.

I'm not trying to sell my practices on anyone here. I'm all about the health and care of bearded dragons. I only suggest what has worked for me in my years of keeping them.

Robyn, it seems to me like alot of the time you post here you provide helpful insight to the inquiry but somehow always reference to a temp gun. Kind of convenient huh? Pro Exotics manufactures temp guns.

It isn't about selling Temp Guns, it is about TEMPERATURES.

(caps not used to "yell", as I explained to you earlier, but to stress a POINT. You claimed to understand, but now you forgot?)

We bought and used Temp Guns at Pro Exotics over a decade ago, when they were $500 each. That is when I really started to understand temps, how they worked, and how the animals use them.

With the strides made in captive husbandry, and understanding temperatures (both basking and ambient, an overall temperature gradient) we came to realize that temps are the single most important aspect of reptile husbandry. It is also the most misunderstood aspect of reptile husbandry. We are working hard to change that.

Knowing how important it was to share this info, we busted our butts to bring an affordable Temp Gun to the reptile hobby. Our first unit we bought for $75, and retailed for $85, just to make it somewhat affordable for the average hobbyist (sure beats $500).

Seeing the enthusiastic response to an $85 Temp Gun, we knew it was important to get the price down even further. After a few generations and incarnations, we came out with a $25 TEMP GUN.

That was not just the lowest priced Temp Gun in the reptiles, that was the lowest priced Temp Gun in the world. That REALLY made it affordable enough for nearly every hobbyist to get a tool that would make the MOST difference in reptile husbandry.

But I don't spend hours on the reptile forums to pitch a product, I come to talk about husbandry, to try and help folks with their reptiles. And I see the same common mistakes again and again.

That is a dirty shot, what you are implying, and that is too bad. Too many folks get caught up in ego, or get defensive over some husbandry topic. It isn't about me, it isn't about you, it is about the animals.

Do you have a Temp Gun, have you used one? Do you really want to claim that 130F is an impractical lizard temp, one that they won't encounter or use?

It is 69F here in Denver today, I just went outside, using a Temp Gun, and pulled 119F surface temps. In the pic attached, it was 75F and we pulled 126F surface temps.

What is Australia when it is 80F, 90F or 100F out? Well, it would be higher than New Jersey, and a keeper just pulled 225F temps of outdoor surfaces there (just posted in the monitor forum).

A lizard doesn't have to use 130F, or 150F to bask for very long. The energy/heat goals are accomplished quickly and efficiently, allowing them to accomplish other goals for the day- eating, socializing, breeding, hiding etc.

In a captive environment, the key is to offer the reptile CHOICES. Offer a temperature gradient, offer a moisture gradient, allow them to make the choice.

If you offered a moisture gradient ranging from dry sand dunes to a marshy swamp, a Bearded wouldn't use the extremes. But there is a range that they DO use. And ideally, you want to capture that useful range in your captive environment.

I have seen some lizard keepers suggest humidity levels of 10%, or even 0% for lizards. That shows a fundamental lack of understanding of what reptiles actually need.

MANY Bearded (and Uro) keepers think that these animals live in SAND DUNES. Like Lawrence of Arabia kind of places. That is a basic misunderstanding of the very basis of lizard habitat.

An arid or scrub environment (where these types of lizards actually come from) isn't 10% (much less 0%) humidity! Water is life! The very bio makeup of the animal is dominated by water content!

When you keep your lizard so dry, so chronically dehyrdrated, you see problems like impactions, slow growth, poor appetite, etc.

In the wild they encounter drier areas on open ground, but more moisture and humidity underground, in burrows, and in secure hiding areas. A variety of moisture levels.

The same goes with temperatures, they encounter a temperature gradient. There are cooler areas, where much of the day is spent, and there are basking areas, where peak temps are reached. Then there is everything in between. Will they use 100F? Of course they will, just like they will use 80F, and 130F. Offer them choices, offer them temps they will use, and they will take it from there.

I have seen Beardeds bask at temps over 130F. I have seen many species of lizards bask at temps over 130F. This is not extreme to the reptile, just to the human that says "Boy, 130F sounds really hot!". But it isn't.

130F is not really hot. Your skin won't melt, your hair won't singe, and if you are in a sauna, the guy next to you will likely complain that it is "too cold in here". It is all about perspective, and for reptiles, 105F, 110F is COOL, not a good basking temp at all. 105F falls in the upper range of ambient temps, not basking temps. I would say basking temps start at 115F and go up. For useful basking temps, they top out at 165F or so. After that, it does get too hot, and outside of the usability of the lizards.

Of course, given special circumstances, an extra large meal, egg development, stuff like that, I have seen Ackies bask in excess of those temps. But that is rare.

What I do know is that 130F is a good, practical basking temp, one that allows a lizard to achieve all of its heating and energy needs, safely.

I have never seen 130F basking temp cause a lizard problems, or become an issue. I see posts once a week here that go back to problems with 105F basking temps though...

I have setup hundreds of cages, including small 10 and 20 gallon tanks, with a 83F-130F temp gradient, a terrific ambient temp, a terrific basking temp, and it isn't hard to do, it just involves using an elevated basking spot.

Once you grasp how to do that type of setup, it isn't hard, it isn't foreign, it isn't scary, it is just basic setup and husbandry. Everybody can learn it and apply it.

But it all starts with a Temp Gun, knowing how to take accurate temperatures, what they mean, how they apply to reptiles, and how the reptiles will make use of them. Temps Temps Temps, the single most important factor of modern reptile husbandry.

Best of luck to you and your animals.

Surface temps at 75F air temp- 126F

In this pic of a Retes Stack basking setup (a terrific way to do an elevated basking spot) the Uros at the top are basking at 155F+. The temp drops 5-10F degrees each level that you go down, and they use all of the levels. Lots of great temp choices in this type of basking setup. Perfectly applicable to Beardeds.

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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

Robyn,

I just wanted to let you know. Since reading your posts about higher temps i decided to experiment with my own beardies. I just got a new baby beardie a month ago - and he was doing well, but not as great as i wanted him too. I was caring for him the way i have always raised my beardies - 20gallon long, an elevated basking spot, a cooler side branch, UVB bulb, calcium and multivitamin supplements etc etc...basking temps of 105-110degrees - measured with a digital thermometer and a temp gun.

Anyway, i decided it couldnt hurt and i upped his temps to 120...his basking spot is large enough that he can bask at temps ranging from 85 to 120 degrees and he loves it. He bounces back and force in and out of the various temps - mostly staying in the 95-115 range, but definately spending some quality basking time in the 120 range. His colors are better and his appetite is up. I am going to see about increasing the temps more by adding some more elevation to his basking spot.

anyway, i wanted to thank you for bringing another opinion - i am a full believe that there is so much we dont know about reptiles. Heck, a few years ago people were recomending we feed dog food to iguanas!!! Our knowledge of reptile care is ever growing and changing...and with this knowledge we are learning how to better fufill the needs of our reptilian cares. Being willing to embrace new ideas (of course, only those ideas that are backed by some good evidence and proof that they are sound and not harmful) and to keep our minds open to change in our keeping habits will help us to better care for our animals and help them live longer, higher quality lives. Ultimately, that is what its all about.
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1.1 Bearded Dragons
2.2 Leopard Geckos
1.0 Uromastyx (Mali)
1.1 Corn snakes
0.1 Mexican Black Kingsnake
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake
1.0 Rosy Boa
1.1 Green Anoles
1.1 House Geckos
0.0.2 Flying Geckos
0.0.1 Red Eye Tree Frog

Robyn, I sincerely do apologize for making that remark. It wasn't necessary and it certaintly wasn't warranted. I do not know you or your intentions in life.

I am trying to help and always be a better herper. You seem to have far more knowledge than myself with the breakdown of temperatures. It would benefit me in the future to read you posts rather than argue with them.

I will say I know a good deal about keeping bearded dragons. Never has one died in my care for improper husbrandy and I own alot of dragons. And yes, I do own a temp gun.

Again,

My apologies

-Kevin

I've also done my own testing and live in New Jersey. I agree that very high basking temps. exist in Australia and New Jersey. I have measured them with my temp. gun.

My point is that outside the animals do not need to bask for as long because of the UVB output of the sun. Dragons in the wild generally bask in the morning and afternoon and then find shade during the hottest part of the day. This has tested out on hot days in my outdoor enclosure. In other words, given the choice they don't bask for long in high temp. basking spots.

What we should be discussing is what the ideal body temperature of a Bearded Dragon is. That temp. is only about 95-100. As long as they are able to accomplish that, and their other needs are met they should be healthy. A raised basking light should get them closer to the UVB source also which unfortunately is severely lacking compared to direct sunlight. Therefore, longer basking times are required inside than outside. Something to consider.

I've always recommended higher basking temps. (115) for babies and juveniles.

I have 22 Beardies here and am a meticulous keeper. I take in rescues and do reptile rehabilitation for a reptile vet. I have experimented with different conditions and have found the best basking spot range for adults to be 105-110. Seriously, ill dragons have recovered in that range and were returned to their amazed owners.

I accept that Robyn's experience and observations differ from mine. My suggestion is for people to split the difference and make their own decisions based on their observations of their particular dragon. Then decide if they want to move the temps. up or down. All my animals are different, some like higher temps. than others and I adjust for that based on their behavior.

Just for the sake of trying, I increased my basking temperatures as well (and yes I do have a temp gun) and I achieved the gradient Robyn said but none of my dragons would go to the spot. I did this over the course of 2 weeks (I read a prior thread similar to this one a while ago that you posted in). My younger dragons preferred to be at the 114.3 degree spot and my two oldest preferred the 112.4 degree area. They all ventured into the 130 degree area for less than 3 minutes and decided to move to a cooler basking area. While I respect what you say and believe Robyn, I also do believe that it is more the dragon's choice and preference on which temps it wants to bask at. As long as my dragons are digesting properly and growing healthy, then I will continue to provide the temps they desire. I take all of my reptiles from my beardies to my rhinoceros iguana to the vet atleast once a year for a routine checkup and all ove them have been given an immaculate bill of health so I don't worry about my husbandry practices. There are many debatable aspects of all reptile husbandry, not just bearded dragons and this is just one of them. I think that while others may not like the idea they should still give it a try and be open minded about things since the herp world is ever changing in regards to husbandry.
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1.0.0 Frilled Dragon - Frank
0.0.1 Rhinoceros Iguana - Mo
2.1.21 Bearded Dragons - Magellan, Galileo, Lizzy, all the babies

Hey this is always going to be a topic of discussion. Robyn how long have you kept Beardies, and all the talk about the OZ temps how many times have you been out there in the outback and checked the temps. I have to agree with everyone else on the forum. 130 may not hurt the dragons if you do have a good gradiant and you are correct you can acheive that without raising the ambiant temps, but dragons dont go into that heat. They just dont. YOu always talk about 2008 husbandry but really have you been to Ausie in 2008??? The only person on here who agrees with you is YOU (caps for a point). Instead of telling everyone else they are wrong how about trying their way. I do also believe you are pushing temp guns every chance you get but nobody blames you for that cause it is business. I have kept beardies for years and I agree things change in care when you learn new stuff but TEMPS as you point out in EVERY SINGLE POST are not the ONLY aspects of care. You dont seem to have any other information except 130 degrees and a temp gun. If you want 2008 husbandry try other answers. About me. I dont know everything but as far as OZ goes I have lived there for YEARS!!! My brother does agamid reasearch there (mainly beardies) He works with the Australian zoos and research facilities, and reports here to the United States for the San Diego Zoo. We have temped the outback and you are right some areas can well exceed 130 degrees on the surface, but when those temps are that high there are ZERO beardies basking. They are under rock outcrops and shrubs in the 100-112 degree areas. Then they move to the more shaded areas around 90 degrees. You can yell TEMP TEMP TEMP all you want and I have even bought your temp gun ( A WONDERFUL TOOL I DO ADVISE ANY HERPER TO GET) but the truth is that is all you have on beardies. I have read your articles on Ackies and you are a knowledgable guy no doubt, but maybe just maybe with a hundred breeders on this site and a combined husbandry time of well over a 500 years between all of us that is a ton of knowledge and a ton of people who disagree with you, maybe you are wrong????? Like I said I dont know everything but I KNOW dragons, and I know dragons in the wild!!!
I have kept them, and have done reasearch with my brother for over 20 years in the wild. We are now collecting wild specimens to see if we here in the states have actually bred a new subspecies on a genetic level due to the massive inbreeding and all dragons here in the states are because of the ban on exports. I will keep everyone posted on that. I lived in Australia for many wonderful years and every last one was dedicated to the Dragons. 130 degrees is fine in a tank if you have other areas, but the dragons will not go in the extreme heat, and that in my opionion is a wast of tank space that could be used for more comfortable and helpful temps, Like you said it is about the dragons and not our egos!!!!! My dragons and wild dragons are more comfortable and happier in 100 degree areas if it was about the dragons to you then you would see that. Or come to Ausie with me and we can go out and do the reasearch together....

Thanks to everybody for the input on this thread.

I would like to add that all beardeds are different as far as basking temp requirements. I notice that some lines/morphs like temps on the hotter side, and others prefer temps on the cooler side. It takes some observation and adjusting to make the right enviroment for your bearded. These guys have a large range in the wild that stretches from the coast to the middle of austrailia. In this range, there is a whole variety of high and low temps. Josh

Voodoo,

Dragons will and do use basking temps of 130 if set up properly. Every dragon is different, but every dragon will use 130.

When and how often is based on what its trying to accomplish at that point in the dragons life. For example, an egg producing female will be eating and basking much more at high temps, than a healthy male at that particular time of year. So its not so much the dragons preferences to temps, but what the particular stage in their lives calls for.

I do agree with Pdragon1, I have found that as well that different morphs do prefer different temps, mostly due to the amount of dark pigment in them. I have never had a dragon, including females that are gravid want to bask that high. I have hatched out thousands of babies and still have yet to have a dragon prefer that high a temp. I do agree you can set up the tank with a high heat spot without disturbing the ambiant temps but like I said when my dragons never go in the extreme heat, and I have 20 years of healthy dragons and breedings I dont see the reason to get it that hot. Pdragon1 is also correct while most people see dragons as desert animals truth is in the wild they are found in the shrub and grasslands back Australia as well as the higher desert areas. Well I am not posting any more on temps. I think people get it by now, or we have just scared them off!!!HA HA. Anyway if you guys want info on the research my brother is working on let me know. Such as the venom in the bearded dragons... He (well a giant team) found that beardies have a toxin in their venom that is only found in the rattlesnakes..... (YES I SAID VENOM)!!!!!!!!!!

I'd be interested in that research. I've read before that p. Barbata has mild venom like that of some varanid species.

VooDoo,

I too have produced many dragons and have quite a few years in. I currently care for around 80 dragons. A lot of which are hypo-melanistic and all who use basking spots of 130.

I like to make my basking areas large so the area has a basking temp gradient of its own. The dragons will use the hotter area when they need it.

Excellent use of the basking stack idea, there are at least a dozen different temps in there, along with tons of separate hiding spots, all in an area that looks to be 2 square feet : )
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles